ciphergoth comments on Tolerate Tolerance - Less Wrong

49 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 21 March 2009 07:34AM

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Comment author: MBlume 21 March 2009 08:33:47AM *  29 points [-]

I'm going to make a controversial suggestion: one useful target of tolerance might be religion.

I think we pretty much all understand that the supernatural is an open and shut case. Because of this, religion is a useful example of people getting things screamingly, disastrously wrong. And so we tend to use that as a pointer to more subtle ways of being wrong, which we can learn to avoid. This is good.

However, when we speak too frequently, and with too much naked disdain, of religion, these habits begin to have unintended negative effects.

It would be useful to have resources on general rationality to which to point our theist friends, in order to raise their overall level of sanity to the point where religion can fall away on its own. This is not going to work if these resources are blasting religion right from the get-go. Our friends are going to feel attacked, quickly close their browsers, and probably not be too well-disposed towards us the next time we speak (this may not be an entirely hypothetical example).

I'm not talking about respect. That would be far too much to ask. If we were to speak of religion as though it could genuinely be true, we would be spectacular liars. Still, not bringing up the topic when it's not necessary, using another example if there happens to be one available, would, I think, significantly increase the potential audience for our writing.

Comment author: ciphergoth 21 March 2009 09:10:46AM 9 points [-]

I think you point up the problem with your own suggestion - we have to have examples of rationality failure to discuss, and if we choose an example on which we agree less (eg something to do with AGW) then we will end up discussing the example instead of what it is intended to illustrate. We keep coming back to religion not just because practically every failure of rationality there is has a religious example, but because it's something we agree on.

Comment author: MBlume 21 March 2009 09:19:41AM *  8 points [-]

we have to have examples of rationality failure to discuss

It should be noted that if all goes according to plan, we won't have religion as a relevant example for too much longer. One day (I hope) we will need to teach rationality without being able to gesture out the window at a group of intelligent adults who think crackers turn into human flesh on the way down their gullets.

Why not plan ahead?

ETA: Now I think of it, crackers do, of course, turn into human flesh, it just happens a bit later.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 21 March 2009 09:42:54AM 13 points [-]

It's not so much that I'm trying to hide my atheism, or that I worry about offending theists - then I wouldn't speak frankly online. The smart ones are going to notice, if you talk about fake explanations, that this applies to God; and they're going to know that you know it, and that you're an atheist. Admittedly, they may be much less personally offended if you never spell out the application - not sure why, but that probably is how it works.

And I don't plan far enough ahead for a day when religion is dead, because most of my utility-leverage comes before then.

But rationality is itself, not atheism or a-anything; and therefore, for aesthetic reasons, when I canonicalize (compile books or similar long works), I plan to try much harder to present what rationality is, and not let it be a reaction to or a refutation of anything.

Writing that way takes more effort, though.

Comment author: anonym 22 March 2009 12:11:33AM 14 points [-]

they may be much less personally offended if you never spell out the application - not sure why, but that probably is how it works.

Once you connect the dots and make the application explicit, they feel honor-bound to take offense and to defend their theism, regardless of whether they personally want to take offense or not. In their mind, making the application explicit shifts the discussion from being about ideas to being about their core beliefs and thus about their person.

Comment author: JohnH 18 May 2011 02:29:49PM 1 point [-]

For me, this appears to be correct.

Comment author: ciphergoth 21 March 2009 09:31:26AM 3 points [-]

If all goes according to plan, by then we will be able to bring up more controversial examples without debate descending into nonsense. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.

Comment author: brianm 21 March 2009 12:07:48PM 5 points [-]

I think there are other examples with just as much agreement on their wrongness, many of which have a much lower degree of investment even for their believers. Astrology for instance has many believers, but they tend to be fairly weak beliefs, and don't produce such a defensive reaction when criticized. Lots of other superstitions also exist, so sadly I don't think we'll run out of examples any time soon.

Comment author: ciphergoth 21 March 2009 01:31:40PM 8 points [-]

But because people aren't so invested in it, they mostly won't work so hard to rationalise it; mostly people who are really trying to be rational will simply drop it, and you're left with a fairly flabby opposition. Whereas lots of smart people who really wanted to be clear-thinking have fought to hang onto religion, and built huge castles of error to defend it.