Costanza comments on Rationality Quotes: February 2011 - Less Wrong

13 Post author: gwern 01 February 2011 05:46PM

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Comment author: Costanza 01 February 2011 09:31:17PM *  54 points [-]

A long one:

. . . once upon a time men lived among the giants, who were like themselves but far more powerful, and these giants always had a supply of bread, fruit, milk, and all that was necessary to sustain life, which they must have acquired in ways that cost them little, for they would always give away their goods to whoever knew how to please them. And the giants would also carry them wherever they wanted to go, provided they asked in the proper way. So it came about that men never thought of working, nor of walking, nor of building wagons or ships; instead they became natural orators, and spent all of their time watching the giants, figuring out what would please or displease them, smiling at them or imploring them with tears in their eyes; or else simply pronouncing the necessary words, which had to be memorized exactly, though they had no understanding of the changes of humor that would come over the giants, their brusque refusals, or their sudden willingness. Now, if some man, in those days, had tried to get something for himself by his own industry, they would have laughed him to scorn; for the results of his labor would have been puny beside the immense provisions the giants had amassed; and besides with one false step the giants could easily have crushed those little beginnings of labor out of existence. That is why all human wisdom came down to knowing how to speak and how to persuade; and, rather than move things about with great effort, men chose to learn what words it would take to get one of the giants to do their moving. In short, their main business, or rather their only business, was to please, and above all not to displease, their incomprehensible masters, who seemed nevertheless to be charged with nourishing them and housing them and transporting them, and who eventually carried out their duties, provided they were prayed to. This kind of existence, in which men never knew whether they were the masters or the slaves, lasted for a long time, so that the habit of asking, of hoping, of counting on those stronger than themselves left indelible traces in human nature. . . . That is why, as if they were still waiting for the return of the giants, men do not forget to pray and make offerings, though no giant has ever shown himself . . .

-- "Alain" (Émile Chartier) The Gods. A meditation on childhood.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 February 2011 02:06:20AM 21 points [-]

I thought the punchline was going to be that the men were cats.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 02 February 2011 05:45:27PM 8 points [-]

Nah, definitely dogs. They're the undisputed masters of manipulating humans in the animal kingdom.

Comment author: wnoise 03 February 2011 05:36:02AM 12 points [-]

Excepting other humans.

Comment author: wedrifid 02 February 2011 12:18:00AM 14 points [-]

This was wasted as a point about 'gods'. The commentary on human social instincts irrespective of belief in literal gods was far more insightful.

Comment author: Armok_GoB 08 February 2011 01:55:32PM 9 points [-]

Ok, so it seems almost everyone got a different idea of who the giants and the men were. Children and adults, pets and humans, humans and gods, governments and populations (in both directions!), humans and computers...

My first impulse upon seeing this, is that this must be a very general phenomena that occurs in a great spectrum of situations. That all these different situations are isomorpic towards one another. The next is that we should come up with a generalized theory for the concept and maybe make up a word to access the concept quicker.

Comment author: SRStarin 03 February 2011 05:21:53PM 6 points [-]

I didn't know where it was going at all until I hit the words "instead they became natural orators." It was a that point that I thought of my 17-month-old daughter. Thank you for a very timely message.

Comment author: gwern 01 February 2011 09:46:40PM 6 points [-]

Hah; I read through that entire thing expecting the punchline to be that the giants were computers.

Comment author: Costanza 01 February 2011 09:52:13PM 3 points [-]

Maybe one day they will be.

Or we will be, or they'll make paperclips of us all.

Comment author: Eneasz 02 February 2011 06:55:06PM 14 points [-]

I guess I'm far too literal-minded. The whole time I simply assumed the giants were a normal God parable. I was rather non-plussed about the whole quote until I saw "A meditation on childhood" and then my head exploded. I don't even remember being a kid anymore.

Comment author: CronoDAS 02 February 2011 11:46:21PM 3 points [-]

I saw it coming before I read the line that explicitly mentioned childhood.

Comment author: Costanza 03 February 2011 12:15:02AM *  4 points [-]

On the next page in the book, the author mentions, "I decided to go through with the fiction of the giants, although the reader will have seen by the third line where I was leading him."

Personally, I didn't see it coming when I first read it. My first reaction was pretty much the same as Eneasz'.

Comment author: false_vacuum 04 February 2011 12:32:28AM 0 points [-]

Me too.

Comment author: AngryParsley 02 February 2011 10:44:02AM *  2 points [-]

For most of the time I spent reading this quote, I thought the men were celebrities or demagogues and the giants were the populace.

Comment author: simplyeric 04 February 2011 05:35:59PM -2 points [-]

I thought it was a Marxist parable, or something of the sort...an allegorical critique of capitalism, supervalue, the elite exploiting the masses.

I must be in a bad mood because of the Cathie Black situation in NYC...where the "giants" are the democratic masses, who protested against the natural orators of our government...

Last night was a "change of humor that would come over the giants"... a "brusque refusal"...but in the end the middle/lower classes "seemed nevertheless to be charged with nourishing them and housing them and transporting them, and who eventually carried out their duties, provided they were prayed to" (the "praying" being only the making of promises, "I stand for the middle class", "we'll create jobs for you", "think of the children!!11!!1!").

The masses do, at times, crush the endeavors of the orators (more than one reference to Egypt was made last night)...but for the most part the giant masses do what they are told, as long as they hear the right things, and have a cookie or a coo tossed to them now and then.

I freely admit taking too much liberty with all of that...but it really is what I was thinking about as I read it.

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