ellx comments on Open Thread, February 2011 - Less Wrong

5 Post author: David_Gerard 09 February 2011 04:01PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (37)

You are viewing a single comment's thread.

Comment author: ellx 10 February 2011 02:43:35AM *  5 points [-]

It seems to me that on lesswrong there is an overemphasis on status as a human motivator. For example, I think it's possible for a scientist to want to make an important discovery not to gain status in the scientific community but for the beauty of knowledge.

It seems it's a similar situation to the 'if you're a hammer you see all problems as nails' kind of situation, where 'doing it for status' is such a readily thought of thing that it gets over applied.

thoughts?

Comment author: wedrifid 10 February 2011 10:58:04AM 8 points [-]

It seems to me that on lesswrong there is an overemphasis on status as a human motivator. For example, I think it's possible for a scientist to want to make an important discovery not to gain status in the scientific community but for the beauty of knowledge.

I think you miss the point of how status is related to motivation. Relatively few people actually think "I want status and so I will do X". Instead, they just actually want to do X because that is what they feel like doing. However when we wish to model or predict how humans will behave the status concept is powerful. "What would we expect people to do in this situation assuming they were optimized to do what would work to gain social status in their environment of adaptation?" often gives good predictions of what people will do.

Note that people's feelings and desires being real and sincere does not make a behavior less about status. Likewise, a behavior being about status does not make feelings and desires less 'real'.

Comment author: David_Gerard 10 February 2011 06:07:36PM *  10 points [-]

"Possible" is not a refutation of a general statement, only of an absolute one.

Rather, I suspect the emphasis is to compensate for nerds of various sorts - that being who makes up most of the LessWrong audience - placing far less emphasis on status than most people, thus failing to understand the overwhelming power of tribal politics in almost every human interaction.

Remember: we grew this great big brain just to do tribal politics. We grew general intelligence as a better way to do tribal politics. We discovered quantum mechanics and built a huge technological civilisation as side-effects of a mechanism to do tribal politics better. So I'd say that stuff is likely important to dealing effectively with other people, i.e., winning.

Good question, though :-)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 February 2011 06:33:20PM 4 points [-]

We discovered quantum mechanics and built a huge technological civilisation as side-effects of a mechanism to do tribal politics better.

I cannot begin to express how delighted I am to hear someone else saying this. I'm dancing a little dance of glee in my chair.

Comment author: David_Gerard 10 February 2011 06:35:50PM *  1 point [-]

That's because I lifted it directly from you. Have an upvote ;-p

Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 February 2011 06:44:13PM 5 points [-]

Indeed! Why, we've formed our own little transient political alliance here. I can practically hear the endorphin-secreting glands squirting away in response.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 11 February 2011 04:38:03AM 2 points [-]

Get a room, you two.

Comment author: David_Gerard 11 February 2011 01:13:01PM -1 points [-]

We have an entire open thread!

Comment author: wedrifid 11 February 2011 02:16:07PM 0 points [-]

Beware sacrificing your norm violation potential!

Comment author: TheOtherDave 11 February 2011 03:42:30PM 1 point [-]

Poor Norm. He was never quite the same after that.

Comment author: wedrifid 11 February 2011 04:04:09PM 0 points [-]

Yeah, real jealousy issues that one. This is just one of the many reasons privacy is a good thing!

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 11 February 2011 12:30:37AM 2 points [-]

Remember: we grew this great big brain just to do tribal politics. We grew general intelligence as a better way to do tribal politics. We discovered quantum mechanics and built a huge technological civilisation as side-effects of a mechanism to do tribal politics better. So I'd say that stuff is likely important to dealing effectively with other people, i.e., winning.

You're sure the theory that the large brain is at least partly for precision throwing is wrong?

Comment author: wedrifid 11 February 2011 03:39:30AM 3 points [-]

You're sure the theory that the large brain is at least partly for precision throwing is wrong?

A very, very small 'part' perhaps. That sort of specialised behavior doesn't particularly need a massive cortex.

Comment author: Nornagest 11 February 2011 02:08:15AM *  1 point [-]

If anything, that's even worse news for nerds. It'd provide a handy evolutionary explanation for why basketball players tend to be popular, though.

Comment author: David_Gerard 11 February 2011 01:09:28PM -1 points [-]

Not sure in the least :-)

Comment author: JoshuaZ 10 February 2011 05:49:14PM 3 points [-]

I'm unsure of whether it is overused. However, I'm not convinced that the heavy emphasis on status pays much of its rent. What do the overarching status hypotheses predict that we would expect not to see if they weren't the case?

Comment author: Desrtopa 15 August 2011 01:46:33PM 2 points [-]

It's certainly possible, but that doesn't mean that status isn't a powerful motivator, and one which we're far more likely to underestimate.

The "hammer that makes you see all problems as nails" bit is a description I've used myself though, in regards to Robin Hanson in particular with his treatment of status and signalling. On Overcoming Bias far more than here I get the impression that a lot of the essays develop out of posing a question and asking "is there a way I can use status and signalling to explain this?"