Yvain comments on The Power of Positivist Thinking - Less Wrong

68 Post author: Yvain 21 March 2009 08:55PM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 22 March 2009 05:13:13AM 17 points [-]

So... first of all, I'd like someone to look up the logical positivists and say what it is they actually believed. My impression is that so far as their verbal description of their philosophy went, if not its actual use, they claimed that the meaning of any phrase consisted entirely in its impact on experience, and that no other aspect of it is meaningful. This implies that a theory of photons which had photons vanishing as soon as they crossed the horizon of the expanding universe, and a theory which had the photons continuing undetectably onward, had the same meaning.

If this is not logical positivism, then let me be corrected.

The position you're describing sounds to me like what I would call reductionism, and I would agree with the caveat that certain meaningful entities can have logical elements - for example, I am willing to consider "the sum of 2 + 2" apart from any particular calculator that calculates it; its meaning is distinct from the meaning of "the result of calculator X" where calculator X is any physical thing I can point to including my own brain. I have no idea if this reflects reality, but I am unable to make my map work without logical as well as physical elements. I am, however, entirely willing to reduce every meaning to some mixture of physical stuffs and abstract computations.

Is there any point in arguing over whether we are "logical positivists" apart from the particulars of the stance? :)

Comment author: Yvain 22 March 2009 01:21:46PM *  6 points [-]

I'm hesitant to use "reductionism" because I already interpret that to be a belief about the material world (747s made of quarks and so on), not about propositions. I know people who accept material reductionism, but not propositional reductionism.

The real positivists were willing to accept that 2+2=4 was irreducible, since they considered it a tautology/definition and so exempt from testing. I am split: I think in one sense it's tautological, but that we pay attention to that particular tautology for reasons involving a testable generalization over all cases where two objects have been added to two objects and the result has been four objects.