Constant comments on Some Heuristics for Evaluating the Soundness of the Academic Mainstream in Unfamiliar Fields - Less Wrong

73 Post author: Vladimir_M 15 February 2011 09:17AM

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Comment author: [deleted] 17 February 2011 09:54:11AM 3 points [-]

(To use one of the possibly more amusing examples, look at Conservapedia's labeling of the complex numbers and the axiom of choice as products of liberal ideology.)

Looked for it, didn't find it. Links: Axiom of Choice. Complex Number.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 17 February 2011 03:54:25PM 1 point [-]

It looks like my memory was slightly off. The main focus is apparently on the project's founders belief that "liberals" don't like elementary proofs. See this discussion. I'm a bit busy right now but I'll see if I can dig up his comments about the Axiom of Choice.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 February 2011 10:21:16PM 4 points [-]

I checked that page. I don't see any statement that "liberals" don't like elementary proofs.

In this discussion, Andy Schlafly, to whom you are apparently referring since he appears to have control over content, is arguing with Mark Gall over the best definition of "elementary proof". Essentially Mark believes that the definition should reflect what he believes to be common usage, and Andy believes that the definition should reflect a combination of usage and logic, ruling out certain usage as mis-usage. I think Andy is essentially identifying what he believes to be a natural kind, and believes his definition to cut nature at the joints.

Andy uses the word "liberal" in only one place, here:

Academic mathematicians, as in other academic fields, are in denial about many things: gender differences, religious truth, the value of self-criticism, and the bankruptcy of liberal politics.

"Liberal politics" here is given only as an example of error, one example among several, another example being atheism. The statement is not that liberals don't like elementary proofs any more than that atheists don't like elementary proofs. In fact I found no statement that anybody doesn't like elementary proofs. Rather, the discussion appears to be about the best definition of elementary proofs, not about liking or disliking.

Also, the "talk" pages of Conservapedia, like the "talk" pages of Wikipedia, are not part of the encyclopedia proper. I think it's incorrect, then, to say that the Conservapedia does something, when in fact it is done in the talk pages.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 17 February 2011 11:20:31PM *  1 point [-]

Ok. If you prefer, Andrew is even more blunt about his meaning here

where he says:

The concept of an elementary proof is well-known in mathematics and was widely taught to top mathematics students at least until 25 years ago. Yet Wikipedia refused for months to have an entry about it, and only relented when I pointed out here that MathWorld does have an entry.

Why such resistance? Because many of the recent claims of proofs, such as Wiles' proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, are not elementary proofs and liberals don't want to admit that. Liberals prefer instead to claim that mathematicians today are smarter than the devoutly Christian mathematicians like Bernhard Riemann and Carl Gauss. Not so, and this omission of this entry on Wikipedia was due to liberal bias. Explained another way, liberals detest accountability, in this case the accountability of the rigorous criteria for an elementary proof. Godspeed

(End quote from Andrew).

That example seems to be pretty explicit. I agree that in general what happens on a talk page is not the same thing as what happens in the encyclopedia proper but Andrew includes this claim as one of his examples of bias in Wikipedia which is in their main space (although that doesn't explicitly call it an example of "liberal" bias).

Comment author: [deleted] 18 February 2011 12:31:12AM 0 points [-]

Okay, that's close to what you were saying, though this seems to be a speculative hypothesis he came up with to explain the striking fact that Wikipedia did not include the entry. The important topic is the omission from Wikipedia. The explanation - that's his attempt to understand why it happened. Many people are apt to come up with obviously highly speculative speculations when trying to explain surprising events. I don't think all that much should be made of such things. In any case, I'm not convinced that he's wrong. (I'm not convinced that he's right either.)

Comment author: JoshuaZ 18 February 2011 12:44:49AM *  0 points [-]

It isn't that surprising that we'd have that sort of thing missing. A lot of the articles I've written for Wikipedia are ones I only wrote because I was trying to look them up and was surprised that we didn't have them. People don't appreciate how many gaps Wikipedia still has. For example, until I wrote it, there was no Wikipedia article for Samuel Molyneux, who was a major historical astronomer.

In any case, I'm not convinced that he's wrong. (I'm not convinced that he's right either.)

Beware false compromise. The truth does not always lie in the middle. (Incidentally, are you a Bayesian? If so, around what probability do you define as being "convinced"?)

Comment author: David_Gerard 23 February 2011 03:17:55PM 0 points [-]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Conservapedia:Conservapedian_mathematics

If you are foolish enough to want to comprehend the strangeness of Conservapedia, RationalWiki is the place to go.