JanetK comments on Brains more complicated than previously thought - Less Wrong

10 Post author: NancyLebovitz 18 February 2011 03:37PM

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Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 19 February 2011 05:53:47PM 4 points [-]

I figure when we have built an artificial kidney that works as well as a kidney, and an artificial heart that works as well as a heart, and an artificial pancreas that works as well as a pancreas - then it will be reasonable to know whether an artificial brain is a reasonable goal.

Building an artificial kidney requires both knowledge about how a kidney works, and the physical engineering skill to build an artificial kidney with the same structure. Unlike a kidney, an artificial brain can be implemented in software, so it's enough to only know how it works.

The comparison would be valid if by an "artificial brain" we meant a brain built out of biological neurons, but we don't.

Comment author: JanetK 20 February 2011 10:10:55AM -2 points [-]

Do you honestly believe that an artificial brain can be built purely in software in the near future? And if it could how would it be accurate enough to be some particular person's brain rather than a generic one? And if it was someone's brain could the world afford to do this for more than one or two person's at a time? I am not at all convinced of 'uploads'.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 February 2011 11:19:42AM 1 point [-]

Do you honestly believe that an artificial brain can be built purely in software in the near future?

Kaj never mentioned "near future" or any timeline for uploads for that matter. The only thing he did was pointing out a possible flaw in your argument, yet you took it as a personal insult to your belief.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 20 February 2011 07:27:22PM 0 points [-]

The Whole Brain Emulation Roadmap implies that it may very well be possible. I don't have the expertise to question their judgement in this matter.

As this review shows, WBE on the neuronal/synaptic level requires relatively modest increases in microscopy resolution, a less trivial development of automation for scanning and image processing, a research push at the problem of inferring functional properties of neurons and synapses, and relatively business-as-usual development of computational neuroscience models and computer hardware. This assumes that this is the appropriate level of description of the brain, and that we find ways of accurately simulating the subsystems that occur on this level. Conversely, pursuing this research agenda will also help detect whether there are low-level effects that have significant influence on higher level systems, requiring an increase in simulation and scanning resolution.

There do not appear to exist any obstacles to attempting to emulate an invertebrate organism today. We are still largely ignorant of the networks that make up the brains of even modestly complex organisms. Obtaining detailed anatomical information of a small brain appears entirely feasible and useful to neuroscience, and would be a critical first step towards WBE. Such a project would serve as both a proof of concept and a test bed for further development. If WBE is pursued successfully, at present it looks like the need for raw computing power for real-time simulation and funding for building large-scale automated scanning/processing facilities are the factors most likely to hold back large-scale simulations.

Comment author: JanetK 21 February 2011 08:54:32AM 1 point [-]

Tordmor has commented on my attitude - sorry I did not mean to sound so put out. The reason for the 'near future' was because the discussion was about 'upload' and so I assumed we talking about our lifetimes which in the context seemed the near furture (about the next 50 years). Making an approximate emulation of some simple invertebrate brain is certainly on the cards. But an accurate emulation of a particular person's brain is a different ballpark entirely.

I never know exactly what people mean when they say emulation or simulation or model. How much is the idea to mimic how the brain does something? To 'upload' someone, the receiving computer would need some sort of mapping to the physical brain of that person. This is a very tall order.

Thanks for the link to the Roadmap which I will be reading it.