Rationality Quotes: March 2011

6 Post author: Alexandros 02 March 2011 11:14AM
  • Please post all quotes separately, so that they can be voted up/down separately.  (If they are strongly related, reply to your own comments.  If strongly ordered, then go ahead and post them together.)
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Comments (383)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 30 March 2011 08:25:06PM 3 points [-]

"It’s fascinating to me that we live in a world where some intelligent people think we need to put more effort into sophisticated artificial intelligence, while others think tractors powered by methane from manure are more important, and each thinks the other is being unrealistic."

John Baez

Comment author: JGWeissman 30 March 2011 08:48:31PM 0 points [-]

Very amusing, but what I find really silly here is that "tractors powered by methane from manure" is easy, and if that is helpful we should just do it already, and move on to hard important problems like FAI.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 30 March 2011 08:51:49PM 0 points [-]

I suppose the counterargument is "put the large rocks in first"... that is, that there is a large enough supply of easy problems that the "if it's easy, do it now" strategy means you never get to the hard important problems.

Comment author: JGWeissman 30 March 2011 08:57:42PM 2 points [-]

In this case, the easy problem is still easy without using any resources currently being applied to the hard problem. There should not be a trade off here.

Comment author: Swimmer963 30 March 2011 08:56:35PM 0 points [-]

"put the large rocks in first"

Do you happen to know where that quote is from? My dad uses it a lot and I had the vague impression it was from a self-help book.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 30 March 2011 09:27:21PM 1 point [-]

I don't; it's been floating around the ether for as long as I can recall. Most recently, a friend of mine insisted that this was a Zen koan, which I find very unlikely.

Comment author: MinibearRex 29 March 2011 09:47:41PM *  1 point [-]

On Mysterious Answers to Mysterious Questions

Context: The main character has been talking about the wonderful mysteriousness that makes another character so interesting. His companion (a self described humanist), tries to correct him, saying:

"You should know that I have an equal dislike of seeing you in hot pursuit of mystery. By turning personality into an enigma, you run the danger of idol-worship. You are venerating a mask. You see something mystical where there is only mystification."

-Thomas Mann, The Magic Mountain

Comment author: lukeprog 28 March 2011 01:39:11AM 2 points [-]

It is necessary to know the power and the infirmity of our nature, before we can determine what reason can do in restraining the emotions, and what is beyond her power.

Spinoza

Comment author: lukeprog 28 March 2011 01:30:25AM 3 points [-]

Your brain has only a thin veneer of relatively modern, analytical circuits that are often no match for the blunt emotional power of the most ancient parts of your mind.

Jason Zweig

Comment author: ata 26 March 2011 04:06:02AM 0 points [-]

Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.

— G. K. Chesterson

Comment author: wedrifid 26 March 2011 06:13:25AM 6 points [-]

Wrong on both counts. Impartiality is a necessary and desirable trait for umpires (and similar roles). I want umpires, judges and escrow agents to be impartial even when they care about one of the parties.

Indifference is a valid preference to have for events that don't concern you. I'm indifferent to who wins the Super Bowl. That doesn't mean I know nothing about it. I simply have no reason whatsoever to care.

The Chesterson's quote is a pompous and elegant way of whining that people don't want to help you.

Comment author: ata 24 March 2011 03:54:15AM 0 points [-]

People just have no clue about their genuine nature. I have countless friends who describe themselves as "cynical," and they're all wrong. True cynics would never classify themselves as such, because it would mean that they know their view of the world is unjustly negative; despite their best efforts at being grumpy, a self-described cynic is secretly optimistic about normal human nature. Individuals who are truly cynical will always insist they're pragmatic. The same goes for anyone who claims to be "creative." If you define your personality as creative, it only means you understand what is perceived to be creative by the world at large, so you're really just following a rote creative template. That's the opposite of creativity. Everybody is wrong about everything, just about all the time.

— Chuck Klosterman

Comment author: rabidchicken 24 March 2011 03:59:50AM *  2 points [-]

You can know you are unjustly negative without being able to change your disposition. Why do you think people choose to take counselling and antidepressants?

I know I am cynical

Comment author: ata 26 March 2011 04:09:30AM 1 point [-]

I read the quote as referring more to people who take pride in their self-image as cynics. I meant no offense to those who correctly and non-paradoxically believe themselves to have unjustly negative aliefs, I know what that's like.

Comment author: TobyBartels 19 March 2011 07:59:06AM *  0 points [-]

I'm afraid that this isn't a quote, but it seems like the best place to put it.

Earlier today, I had a discussion with my girlfriend about Santa Claus etc. She opined that it was worthwhile to believe in ‘impossible things’ (her words) because belief is in itself valuable. I didn't know where to begin disagreeing with that. (There was also something about the ‘magic of childhood’.)

This evening, we saw Rango. She squeezed my hand when the characters started talking about how it was important to have something to believe in, it gives people hope, etc. I wasn't even inclined to disagree, only to point out that one should find something true to serve as the basis for one's hopes (not that we actually got into a discussion in the movie theatre).

But then I was delighted to find that the character most pushing this point of view jnf gur znva ivyynva. And not just that; by the lights of this movie, that attitude (belief without regard to truth) is simply wrong.

Comment author: CronoDAS 19 March 2011 01:21:18AM 0 points [-]

I never trust anyone who's more excited about success than about doing the thing they want to be successful at.

-- Randall Munroe

Comment author: ata 18 March 2011 04:04:29AM 8 points [-]

I never trust anyone who's more excited about success than about doing the thing they want to be successful at.

— Randall Munroe, today's xkcd alt text

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 22 March 2011 10:51:48PM 0 points [-]

So don't save the world if doing so is boring?

Comment author: JGWeissman 22 March 2011 11:01:31PM 4 points [-]

I read it as comparing enthusiasm for the general concept of success to wanting to achieve a specific goal. So it is good to save the world because you want the world to be saved, and it is bad to publish a blog post instead of saving the world because you like success and it is easier to succeed at publishing a blog post.

Comment author: DavidAgain 16 March 2011 10:44:25PM 2 points [-]

"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought" Henri Bergson

When I first read this, I thought it was just applause lights. But I actually think it's highly applicable to rationalist standards of belief and practice.

Comment author: Kevin 15 March 2011 11:37:43PM 5 points [-]

I have asked dozens of bicycle riders how they turn to the left. I have never found a single person who stated all the facts correctly when first asked. They almost invariably said that to turn to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made a turn to the left. But on further questioning them, some would agree that they first turned the handlebar a little to the right, and then as the machine inclined to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made the circle, inclining inward.

-Wilbur Wright

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 15 March 2011 06:25:02PM 16 points [-]

It's better to be lucky than smart, but it's easier to be smart twice than lucky twice

Comment author: Alicorn 15 March 2011 07:10:55PM 1 point [-]

Who are you quoting?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 15 March 2011 10:52:03PM 0 points [-]

I couldn't find a source, but the line has been around for a while.

Comment author: NihilCredo 15 March 2011 06:28:31AM 4 points [-]

HABIT, n.: A shackle for the free.

Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Comment author: TrE 14 March 2011 06:24:44AM -1 points [-]

From Lord Of The Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien:

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."

Although I think breaking things actually can be pretty useful if there are more things of that kind. If you're breaking something unique, well, then...

Comment author: DavidAgain 14 March 2011 12:39:50PM 4 points [-]

I'm not sure if 'although' is meant to reject this as a rationality quote or deny it entirely. I think the latter might be wise, though. It's essentially an anti-reductionist, anti-analytic quote on similar grounds to Keats' lines on unweaving rainbows. It's also part of a semi-mystical 'magical combat by philosophical debate' sequence, which I really enjoy as literature but which essentially boils down to a series of Mysterious Old Wizard 'insights'. Although, ironically, in LOTR the quote is objecting to Saruman breaking white light into its constituent 'many colours', whereas Keats is objecting to explaining the 'many colours' back to a division of white light. So it seems that the 'holistic' view is objecting to analysis in either direction on this one!

Comment author: Alexandros 13 March 2011 10:27:15AM *  9 points [-]

There is no thing easier than to fool oneself. For, what we desire, we willingly believe. Reality, however, is often different.

Demosthenes (384–322 BCE)

Comment author: Perplexed 13 March 2011 01:32:17AM 3 points [-]

Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a man of some sense to know how to lie well.

Samuel Butler

Quoted in the chapter on bounded rationality and the Revelation Principle in "Computational Aspects of Preference Aggregation" (.pdf) - an award winning 2006 PhD. Dissertation in AI by Vincent Conitzer.

Comment deleted 12 March 2011 12:22:45PM *  [-]
Comment deleted 12 March 2011 12:24:16PM [-]
Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 12 March 2011 02:20:40PM 1 point [-]

Ben Goldacre keeps up a façade of being sympathetic to the Dark Side so that they look worse when they argue with him. Of course, taking it literally, it would be nice if I could decide what was true.

Comment author: lukeprog 12 March 2011 07:04:17AM 9 points [-]

"Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy."

Joseph Campbell

Comment author: Alexandros 13 March 2011 10:22:44AM 0 points [-]

...at least the rules are consistent and correspond to reality...

Comment author: Snowyowl 13 March 2011 11:12:51AM 1 point [-]

Not all of them. Which applies to Old Testament gods too, I guess: the Bible is pretty consistent with that "no killing" thing.

Comment author: moshez 15 March 2011 06:57:45PM 8 points [-]

The bible doesn't say "don't kill". In KJV times, "kill" meant what we mean by "murder", and "slay" was the neutral form (what we now mean by "kill"). (This, by the way, actually corresponds to the Hebrew version)

This post brought to you by the vast inferential distance you have from the people who wrote KJV

Comment author: wedrifid 13 March 2011 11:46:07AM 4 points [-]

the Bible is pretty consistent with that "no killing" thing.

Except for the countless times when killing is outright mandated on, well, pain of death.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 13 March 2011 02:27:11PM 2 points [-]

And the times when killing is praised, and the times when killing is completely unremarked upon.

The Bible approaches consistency much more closely with "no murder." That said, if "murder" roughly boils down to unendorsed killing, that's not too surprising.

Comment author: DavidAgain 13 March 2011 02:47:00PM 0 points [-]

Even then it's more than a little odd. God's reaction to the first murder is rather mysterious. I've always felt the Cain and Abel story is the shortened version of something which really should have had a wider context.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 13 March 2011 03:24:25PM 2 points [-]

Well, there's a lot of that in the Bible.

I've heard the Cain/Abel story explained as a metaphorical account of the conflict between hunter-gatherer and agricultural economies. (The initial conflict between the brothers stems from God's differential approval of their hunter and farmer lifestyles.) I have no idea whether there's real evidence for that or whether it's a just-so story, but if it's true it also provides a perspective on an equally puzzling account later on, where Jacob sells a mess of pottage to his hunter brother, Esov, in exchange for the primogeniture. (A contract he later enforces by outright deceiving their elderly father, which makes me suspect the later story came first and the earlier one backformed to justify what would otherwise be outright fraud, rather than mere coercion. But I digress.)

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 11 March 2011 04:43:52AM 22 points [-]

"If the wonder's gone when the truth is known, there never was any wonder." — Gregory House, M.D. ("House" Season 4, Episode 8 "You Don't Want to Know," written by Sara Hess)

Comment author: ata 15 March 2011 06:44:08AM *  6 points [-]

That made me notice that the whole "persistent failure to understand some phenomenon makes it awesome" idea is baked directly into words like "wonder" and "wonderful". What do you do when you don't understand something? You wonder about it. And so if something is wonderful, then clearly you can't allow yourself to understand it, because then there'd be nothing to wonder about. (In that sense, of course "wonder" is gone when the truth is known!) I know the dictionary would likely consider those to be separate senses of the words, but the connotations probably leak over.

Comment author: Mass_Driver 14 March 2011 06:33:38AM 2 points [-]

Why not?

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 14 March 2011 08:29:27AM 1 point [-]

The context of the quote is available here.

Comment author: Mass_Driver 14 March 2011 05:08:40PM 3 points [-]

Thanks. I watched the episode and remember the context, but I still want to know why wonder that depends on ignorance is literally illusory.

Is this quote just a motivational tool designed to help us seek truth, or is there some true propositional content to it? If the latter, what are some situations where there was in fact some wonder? Also, what is or might be the causal mechanism by which dependence on ignorance leads to the no-wonder state?

I ask because when I am amazed by a magic trick or by a feat of practical engineering whose exact principles are unknown to me, and say "Wow!" and experience what I usually describe as "wonder," and then someone explains it and it seems relatively less wondrous, I do not usually retroactively downgrade my (temporary) experience of wonder -- rather, I note that at the time it seemed particularly wonderful and that now it seems less so.

For all that, I value truth much higher than wonder, and people are perfectly welcome to explain things to me -- but I doubt that House's quote is literally correct.

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 14 March 2011 07:58:29PM 1 point [-]

and then someone explains it and it seems relatively less wondrous

Things should not seem more wonderful when you don't understand them. Rationalists take joy in the merely real.

Comment author: Mass_Driver 15 March 2011 06:12:18AM 3 points [-]

So I went back and re-read that article, and I still think that House's claim is (a) much stronger, and (b) wrong.

It's certainly important to allow yourself to gape in wonder at things that follow orderly rules; most likely all things do that, and I agree that it's foolish to give up wonder just because we live in an orderly universe.

But, for me, the sense of wonder is not about worshiping ignorance; it's about humility and curiosity. Here, I say to myself when I see a rainbow, is something worth knowing about and yet I do not understand it at all. The wonder is the fuel that leads to curiosity, which leads to knowledge. Or, at the very least, the wonder helps me keep up a grateful, open attitude toward my environment.

If you explained exactly how the rainbow worked, it would be an object of somewhat less wonder -- I would still find it pretty, but I wouldn't get quite the same emotional high. I might be able to find a similar sense of wonder in, e.g., the composition of the atmosphere (this usually works for me), or the behavior of photons (this usually does not work for me), and so there might be no net loss of wonder, and yet, nevertheless, explaining how the rainbow works tends to diminish the wondrousness of the rainbow without thereby providing any support for the conclusion that there was never any wonder there in the first place.

Basically, I disagree with you and with House. I take joy in the merely real, and things seem more wonderful to me when I don't (yet) understand them.

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 15 March 2011 06:22:59AM *  0 points [-]

Here, I say to myself when I see a rainbow, is something worth knowing about and yet I do not understand it at all. The wonder is the fuel that leads to curiosity, which leads to knowledge.

If you look at the context of the quote, the magician's previous line is:

"People come to my show because they want a sense of wonder. They want to experience something that they can't explain." (emphasis added)

That doesn't seem to be the same sentiment as the one you're describing.

The mindset in which something only has wonder when you think it's unexplainable (not just unexplained) is not a rational or scientific one.

Comment author: DavidAgain 15 March 2011 08:50:30AM 7 points [-]

I'm quite uncomfortable with these sorts of statements. Rationalism and science are ways of approaching and analysing the world, not modes of aesthetic appreciation. This smacks a little to me of the idea that the scientifically aware realise that there is 'more beauty' in nature than in art.

If I met someone who was clear-minded, analytical and empirical I wouldn't call them irrational and unscientific just because they experience wonder at unexplained magic tricks rather than great scientific theories, or because they found the poetry of Eliot more beautiful than the structure of the universe (I know you haven't claimed the latter, just addressing a more widespread 'scientific people appreciate X' claim).

Comment author: Nornagest 15 March 2011 09:01:19AM *  1 point [-]

I didn't think this would fit into the top level of the quotes thread, but in this context it might actually serve pretty well:

The perception of truth is almost as simple a feeling as the perception of beauty, and the genius of Newton, of Shakespeare, of Michelangelo, and of Handel are not very remote in character from each other. Imagination, as well as the reason, is necessary to perfection in the philosophic mind. A rapidity of combination, a power of perceiving analogies, and of comparing them by facts, is the creative source of discovery.

-- Humphry Davy

Comment author: DavidAgain 15 March 2011 09:04:37AM 1 point [-]

I guess the question is whether this is perception of truth or 'truthiness'. On the one hand, people can have a deep sense that something is inevitably true that then turns out to be false. On the other, some individuals, such as Einstein, seem to be good at recognising the sort of aesthetic elegance that suggests a true theory

On the whole, I'm sceptical about the 'direct perception of truth' idea: it tends to suggest that all we need to do is clear away a certain level of obvious biases and then we can trust our gut. And that others who demand evidence for things we consider obvious are nit-pickers and nay-sayers. Not sure that's very good for rationality.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 March 2011 06:57:49PM 2 points [-]

If "wonder" is being used to denote a reaction in an observer's mind, then you're of course right... there was wonder, and now there isn't, and House is simply wrong.

If "wonder" is being used metonomicly to refer to something in the world that merits being reacted to in that way -- the way people use it, for example, in phrases like "the seven wonders of the ancient world" -- then it's not so clearcut.

Comment author: Nisan 30 March 2011 10:17:40PM 0 points [-]

I like the quote because I interpret it as a weapon against the mind projection fallacy: If something is no longer intrinsically wondrous when the truth is known, then it wasn't intrinsically wondrous to begin with.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 14 March 2012 02:19:28AM 1 point [-]

It would seem to me that even to think that being wondrous was an intrinsic property would be some sort of mind projection fallacy by itself.

Comment author: Nisan 14 March 2012 03:35:25PM 0 points [-]

That's probably what I meant.

Comment author: Perplexed 09 March 2011 07:05:01PM 5 points [-]

Agents who correctly record information from their observations, and industriously draw correct conclusions from their evidence, may be rational in some Olympian sense. But they are still cold-blooded recording devices. But knowledge is scarce, and rationality does not reside in always being cautious, and continual correctness. Its peak moments occur with warm-blooded agents, who are opinionated, make mistakes, but who subsequently correct themselves. Thus, rationality is about the dynamics of being wrong just as much as about that of being right: through belief revision, i.e., learning by giving up old beliefs. Or maybe better, rationality is about a balance between two abilities: jumping to conclusions, and subsequent correction if the jump was over-ambitious.

Johan van Benthem - in "Logical Dynamics of Information and interaction"(draft .pdf)

Comment author: Zvi 09 March 2011 03:52:19PM 9 points [-]

"The only thing I'm addicted to right now is winning." - Charlie Sheen

Comment author: Costanza 09 March 2011 03:16:15PM 8 points [-]

I look at my Caltech classmates and conclude that math whizzes do not take over the world. The true geniuses—the artists of the scientific world—may be unlocking the mysteries of the universe, but the run-of-the-mill really smart overachievers like me? They’re likely to end up in high-class drone work, perfecting new types of crossword-puzzle-oriented screen savers or perhaps (really) tweaking the computer system that controls the flow in beer guns at Applebee’s.

Sandra Tsing Loh

Not a rationality quote as such, but maybe an anti-hubris caveat for those of us that were never child prodigies.

Comment author: CronoDAS 09 March 2011 12:35:14PM *  -2 points [-]

[I]f the world weren’t going to hell, it would be a great place.

-- Paul Krugman

(Not that this is necessarily a rationality quote, I just think it's cute.)

Comment author: RobinZ 09 March 2011 03:14:33PM 4 points [-]

Should we open alternative Quotes Theeads for quotes which aren't Rationality Quotes, but which we want to share anyway?

Comment author: David_Gerard 09 March 2011 03:51:42PM 3 points [-]

Put 'em in the Open Thread and see who goes for it.

Comment author: RobinZ 10 March 2011 03:04:52AM *  0 points [-]

That sounds good to me.

Edit: Ah, I see that there is disagreement. I think this calls for a poll - I'll make one in the Open Thread.

Edit 2: Poll

Comment author: Costanza 09 March 2011 03:17:40PM 0 points [-]

Yes!

Comment author: RobinZ 10 March 2011 03:13:24AM 1 point [-]
Comment author: Louie 09 March 2011 11:42:52AM 14 points [-]

"Anything you can do, I can do meta" -Rudolf Carnap

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 09 April 2014 05:44:13PM 0 points [-]

In Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking, Daniel Dennett leads the reader to believe he coined this phrase in a conversation with Douglas Hofstadter.

Comment author: fortyeridania 01 February 2014 07:12:05AM 0 points [-]

Where did you find this? Via Google I have only managed to trace it to a certain Samuel Hahn in 1991.

Comment author: Normal_Anomaly 10 March 2011 02:20:48AM 1 point [-]

I think that should be Terry Prachett's slogan. Or Hofstadter's.

Comment author: MichaelGR 08 March 2011 06:41:38PM 11 points [-]

Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.

  • Mark Twain
Comment author: AlexMennen 08 March 2011 01:53:32AM 9 points [-]

Ethics is ... the art of recommending to others the sacrifices for cooperation with oneself.

-Bertrand Russell

Comment author: CytokineStorm 08 March 2011 04:48:25PM *  10 points [-]

Ethics is ... the art of recommending to others the sacrifices for cooperation with oneself.

The great ethicists of history share essentially the same goal: get strangers to always pick D. ...

Comment author: endoself 13 March 2011 05:56:25AM 1 point [-]

I didn't like that comic because `D' can be achieved through a combination of egoism and UDT just as easily as through altruism. I assume that Weiner would not judge an egoist to be ethically perfect in the least convenient world, one where they were always forced to cooperate in prisoner's dilemma-type situations but could be entirely egoistic whenever they could get away with it, without even acausal consequences.

Comment author: wedrifid 10 March 2011 12:17:23AM *  6 points [-]

That would sound strange if I didn't remember the reference. Not 'D' for defect. 'D' for zero based alphabetized listing of boolean 11 where 1 is 'C'. :)

Comment author: AlexMennen 08 March 2011 01:49:27AM *  27 points [-]

The discovery that the universe has no purpose need not prevent a human being from having one.

-Irwin Edman

Comment author: Snowyowl 13 March 2011 11:13:42AM 1 point [-]

My personal philosophy in a nutshell.

Comment author: MinibearRex 08 March 2011 12:17:29AM *  26 points [-]

On noticing confusion:

"Holmes," I cried, "this is impossible."

"Admirable!" he said. "A most illuminating remark. It is impossible as I state it, and therefore I must in some respect have stated it wrong.

Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure of the Priory School

Comment author: radical_negative_one 07 March 2011 08:56:08PM 10 points [-]

I am taking a first-aid class at my local community college. Our instructor, a paramedic, after telling us about the importance of blood flow to the brain, and the poor prognosis for someone who is left comatose from oxygen deprivation, says:

"There are some people who say, 'But miracles can happen!' Yeah, miracles are one in a million. What number are you?"

Comment deleted 12 March 2011 12:33:39PM [-]
Comment author: NancyLebovitz 12 March 2011 02:47:01PM 1 point [-]

The reason it's a social and political question is that if you aren't in an emergency situation, it's much harder to tell what your capacity for help is. It isn't infinite, but it could probably be more than you're unthinkingly willing to allocate. It's plausible that people are being neglected for no good reason.

I'm not saying it makes sense to plan as though resources are infinite, but but it can also be a good heuristic to ask "what would we be doing if we cared more"?

Comment author: austhinker 14 March 2011 07:02:32AM 0 points [-]

Right or Wrong (by who's definition) is more in how you base your decisions, not in whether you make the decisions.

If you can only save one person, and all other things being equal, is it wrong to save the more attractive person because they are more attractive. If so, should you NOT save the more attractive person, just in case their attractiveness may be biasing your decision?

What if $4000 is spent on equipment to save one premature infant per year, who will probably be permanently impaired anyway, when the same money could have saved two or more adults per year?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 14 March 2011 08:23:05AM 0 points [-]

If you can only save one person, and all other things being equal, is it wrong to save the more attractive person because they are more attractive. If so, should you NOT save the more attractive person, just in case their attractiveness may be biasing your decision?

The larger context is that if that sort of decision is common (and note that "attractive" is shaped by who you've been trained to like, it isn't an absolute), people will put substantial resources into being attractive and/or will be irrationally excluded from opportunities to contribute for being unattractive.

Comment author: aausch 07 March 2011 07:28:04PM 24 points [-]

You'll worry less about what people think about you when you realize how seldom they do.

-- David Foster Wallace

Comment author: NihilCredo 08 March 2011 05:36:38PM 5 points [-]

Reminds me of the first two panels here.

Comment author: Document 10 July 2011 10:36:13PM 0 points [-]

Associating the quote with webcomics made me think of this, although it's fictional evidence.

Comment author: Cyan 07 March 2011 04:17:55PM *  15 points [-]

What exactly qualifies some physical systems to play the role of 'measurer'? Was the wavefunction of the world waiting to jump for thousands of millions of years until a single-celled living creature appeared? Or did it have to wait a little longer, for some better qualified system... with a PhD?

John Stewart Bell, "Against Measurement" in Physics World, 1990.

Comment author: grendelkhan 25 April 2013 02:26:53PM -1 points [-]

That's pretty much the plot of Quarantine, isn't it?

Comment author: MugaSofer 25 April 2013 04:15:33PM *  -2 points [-]

Having trouble googling that. Could you provide a link? Or an explanation, I guess.

ETA: actually, I think I found it.

Comment author: gwern 25 April 2013 06:11:46PM 1 point [-]

Google suggestions: "quarantine fiction", "quarantine wavefunction".

Comment author: MugaSofer 26 April 2013 11:48:46AM 1 point [-]

This comment led to my discovery that the Google settings on this computer were screwy. I think I found it now. Thank you!

Comment author: gwern 26 April 2013 10:08:05PM 0 points [-]

Really? I'm kinda curious, how can Google settings be screwy in such a way that would stop you from finding the top hits?

Comment author: MugaSofer 29 April 2013 09:00:56AM -2 points [-]

Google will sometimes offer to return pages from the country you're in, which, while useful if you're looking for tourism or whatever, is less helpful if you live in Ireland and the thing you're looking for ... doesn't. I've never used it; this is what I get for using a shared computer.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 April 2013 10:27:29AM 1 point [-]

This is probably not the same issue as MugaSofer and arundelo report, but sometimes when I'm on my phone Google notices that I'm in Italy, switches the interface to Italian even though I repeatedly told it that I want it in English, and starts to privilege pages in Italian in the search results by a ginormous amount even when searching for a term in English. (Switching the interface back to English fixes this.)

Comment author: arundelo 27 April 2013 04:36:16AM 2 points [-]
Comment author: shminux 27 April 2013 01:24:52AM -1 points [-]

A search-redirecting toolbar, perhaps.

Comment author: MugaSofer 26 April 2013 11:42:31AM *  0 points [-]

There are many, many works of fiction titled "Quarantine". And your second suggestion throws up all sorts of unrelated stuff.

Comment author: Manfred 12 March 2011 10:28:58AM *  -1 points [-]

This quote does not argue against some major position of modern physicists, but is instead arguing (probably ineffectively) against self-help woo.

Comment author: Cyan 12 March 2011 08:54:00PM *  3 points [-]

Bell made the comment in an article that examined major position of modern phycisists -- or at least, positions of some authors of physics textbooks. Woo was not his topic.

Comment author: Manfred 12 March 2011 11:09:09PM 1 point [-]

None of the physics textbooks I have ever read have required any special qualifications for a system to play the role of measurer, and in many cases use elementary particles as the measurers. There are only three places I recall hearing that claim: Werner Heisenberg, confused non-physicists, and advertising for quantum woo.

Comment author: Cyan 12 March 2011 11:33:03PM 0 points [-]

If you like, PM me an email address and I'll send the article there.

Comment author: Manfred 13 March 2011 04:57:09AM 2 points [-]

Too late, I went and found it online elsewhere :P

In context, the quote is not directed at anyone, and is just a rhetorical question leading straight to "no of course not." Out of context it quite naturally looks like it's directed at some group, changing the meaning a bit.

The quotes from Landau and Lifshitz definitely made me "what," but so did the solutions Bell proposed. 1990 is 20 years ago, I guess.

Comment author: austhinker 14 March 2011 07:06:31AM 0 points [-]

Just remember, 2011 will be 20 years ago in 2031! ;-)

Comment author: Manfred 14 March 2011 07:47:55AM 0 points [-]

It's as it is said: we learn new things all the time, so everything we know now is wrong.

Comment author: Cyan 14 March 2011 01:20:10AM 1 point [-]

Fair point -- pulling the quote out of context does change the way it comes across. To me, the out-of-context quote seems to target pop sci accounts of QM that talk in a misleading way about observation causing collapse. (The woo account of QM takes this misapprehension and runs with it, so I can see how your original rejoinder came about.)

Comment author: wedrifid 07 March 2011 11:23:30AM *  12 points [-]

Dr. Cuddy: "And you're always right. And I don't mean you always think you're right. But y--you are actually always right, because that's all that matters."

House: "That doesn't even make sense. What, you want me to be wrong?"

Comment author: Document 16 April 2011 05:37:25PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: dearleader 07 March 2011 06:08:41AM 9 points [-]

"If you want truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease." — Sent-ts'an

Comment author: TobyBartels 07 March 2011 02:22:17AM *  30 points [-]

Peanuts, 1961 April 26&27:

Lucy: You can't drift along forever. You have to direct your thinking. For instance, you have to decide whether you're going to be a liberal or a conservative. You have to take some sort of stand. You have to associate yourself with some sort of cause.

Linus: How can a person just decide what he's going to think? Doesn't he have to think first, and then try to discover what it is that he's thought?

Comment author: Mark_Eichenlaub 21 December 2012 04:03:19AM 2 points [-]

I just looked this up. It seems the text has been altered, and in the original, Linus said "Are there any openings in the Lunatic Fringe?" http://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/1961/04/26

Comment author: TobyBartels 21 December 2012 07:48:02AM 0 points [-]

Read the next one: http://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/1961/04/27

I skipped the punchlines.

Comment author: Mark_Eichenlaub 26 December 2012 08:37:04PM 0 points [-]

I see, thanks.

Comment author: lukeprog 06 March 2011 08:23:32PM 12 points [-]

I got your Friendly AI problem right here...

"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society."

Theodore Roosevelt

Comment author: a363 08 March 2011 09:12:19AM 14 points [-]

Can't help but twist that into "To educate a society in morals and not in mind is to educate a menace to humanity..."

Comment author: Document 01 June 2011 11:07:08PM *  0 points [-]

To educate a man in "morals" and not in morals etcetera etcetera.

Edit: alternatively: something something wild and wasted virtues.

Comment author: roland 05 March 2011 03:26:00PM *  3 points [-]

My argument cannot be against selection, simplification, emphasis, which are inevitable for both cartographers and historians. But the map-maker's distortion is a technical necessity for a common purpose shared by all people who need maps. The historian's distortion is more than technical, it is ideological; it is released into a world of contending interests, where any chosen emphasis supports (whether the historian means to or not) some kind of interest, whether economic or political or racial or national or sexual.

-- Howard Zinn in A PEOPLE'S HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES

Comment author: Nominull 05 March 2011 04:36:01PM 2 points [-]

I'd be more interested to hear how he intends to solve the problem. Hopefully not the same way T-Rex did.

Comment author: roland 06 March 2011 10:15:52PM 1 point [-]

Sigh. Let me quote a part again:

My argument cannot be against selection, simplification, emphasis, which are inevitable for both cartographers and historians.

Did you even read that sentence? There is no problem and no attempt at solution, he is just pointing out an important fact that had escaped me(and I guess lots of other folks) until I read the quote.

Comment author: Vaniver 06 March 2011 06:12:00AM 3 points [-]

The book is propaganda. Wikipedia's collection of critical views.

Comment author: MinibearRex 06 March 2011 06:28:54AM 5 points [-]

The book is quite clearly propaganda. It sets out to advance a specific thesis, and there is literally no evidence provided against that idea. The bottom line was written at the beginning of the book, and he spent the rest of the book providing arguments for it. That doesn't mean, however, that his positions are necessarily wrong (see the addendum on the link above). Certainly, Zinn's positions have some flaws, but he does raise some issues that haven't been raised with other history texts.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 March 2011 01:21:56PM 2 points [-]

The bottom line was written at the beginning of the book, and he spent the rest of the book providing arguments for it.

It seems to me that the original quote is an explicit statement that that is what he is going to to. As is, even more explicitly, the mission statement on the top page of that website. An extract:

History isn't what happened, but the stories of what happened and the lessons these stories include. ... We cannot simply be passive. We must choose whose interests are best: those who want to keep things going as they are or those who want to work to make a better world. If we choose the latter, we must seek out the tools we will need. History is just one tool to shape our understanding of our world. And every tool is a weapon if you hold it right.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 05 March 2011 10:47:49PM 1 point [-]

There's a whole cottage industry arguing over whether Zinn did solve it the way the T-Rex did or not. Although speaking as someone who agrees with some but not most of Zinn's politics, he did in some ways do a decent job focusing on areas of history that had not gotten a lot of attention due to ideological issues.

Comment author: alethiophile 06 March 2011 04:41:13AM 9 points [-]

There is some value in criticizing that which has been improperly popularly lionized, but this introduces its own skew. Zinn managed to truly piss me off because in his chapter on WWII he either did not mention or mentioned only in passing the rape of Nanking and similar Japanese atrocities, spent a few paragraphs on the Holocaust, surprisingly didn't particularly mention the firebombings of Dresden or Tokyo, but harped for several pages on the atomic bombs. Perhaps they needed examination, but incessantly and loudly examining them at the expense of everything else leaves the reader with a distinct impression of Zinn's own political beliefs.

I think this might be behind much of (American) conservatives' anger with liberals in the foreign policy domain, as exemplified by the insult "blame-America-first". Liberals are questioning America's policies, which is well and good, while leaving it as read that the actions of their adversaries (since the dynamic evolved, usually USSR or terrorists) are much worse. Conservatives see that apparent bias and gain the impression that all liberals hate America in particular. The situation is not improved by much political mind-death on all sides. This is probably going off on a bit of a tangent, but it's at least marginally relevant.

Comment author: Mercy 08 March 2011 03:06:00PM 0 points [-]

Zinn assumed familiarity with those though! He didn't have anything novel to say about them, why simply regurgitate what's known so idiots won't misinterpret you?

Comment author: Pavitra 08 March 2011 08:30:21PM 2 points [-]

I don't believe that that's what was really going on.

Comment author: wedrifid 05 March 2011 09:27:39AM 1 point [-]

If a man can beat you, walk him.

Satchel Paige

Comment author: Zvi 09 March 2011 03:50:21PM *  0 points [-]

I would consider this an anti-rationality quote because he's refusing to actually Shut Up and Multiply. If a guy can beat you, you give him a free pass?

EDIT: I claimed that it was obvious that the math indicated that there were too many intentional walks in Major League Baseball. This is clearly non-obvious, I have lowered my estimate for its likelihood to .9, and I apologize for the claim. However, I still dislike the quote strongly.

Comment author: wedrifid 09 March 2011 10:59:18PM *  1 point [-]

I would consider this an anti-rationality quote because he's refusing to actually Shut Up and Multiply. If a guy can beat you, you give him a free pass?

And on this you are simply mistaken. Many people refuse to shut up and multiply. They are unable to admit that they do have limits and that sometimes losing is the best thing to do.

It is quite easy for those doing math on the situation to see that intentional walks that aren't considered automatic are usually a massive error.

Apart from not being math, your "math" is just wrong. You ought to be able to see why if you read the surrounding conversation here. You can potentially save multiple runs if you correctly evaluate your ability with regard to one particular conflict and concede.

This isn't "anti-rationality". It is anti conventional wisdom and common enforced exhortation.

Comment author: Zvi 10 March 2011 12:24:01AM 0 points [-]

I apologize, for I spoke far too strongly. I should not have made such a claim. Nor do I on reflection think this is the place to start actually doing said math, and your belief being so strong made me call up a friend to go over the problem. I would however strongly dispute that this thread makes it clear that this should run the other way, and continue to believe with p~.9 that there are in fact too many intentional walks (I would have said p~.99 before this thread, my friend after consideration said .95).

This thread seems to be saying as evidence for there being too few: There exists a cognitive bias that, all things being equal, will cause managers to be reluctant to walk a batter intentionally.

I agree that this bias exists. However, I think there's a directly opposite bias that says "don't lose to their best guy" regardless of whether it's right to do so and a bias much stronger than either that says "do the thing that won't get me hammered in the press if I lose." I would guess there's also Overconfidence Bias at work here: Managers think that better matchups are more distinct from worse matchups than they actually are. There are a lot of biases surrounding this decision, they run in both directions and only a small (if growing) number of teams are willing to sit down, do math and try and figure out the right answer.

The only way to actually know which way this runs is to observe what managers actually do and compare that to a well developed model that evaluates the chances of each team winning given each potential decision.

My observations over the years is that these are the categories of situations involving possible intentional walks: 1) Conventional wisdom automatic walks. You need to walk him, and you do. 2) Conventional wisdom "free" walks. CV says that the run doesn't matter so put the guy on. Given the option value of being able to walk a guy, I think managers use this far too often; they essentially use it as long as the next guy is worse. 3) Getting to the pitcher. This is done at least as much as is reasonable given the lineup effects of doing this. 4) Walking the obviously more dangerous guy because there are men on base. This is the situation where it is possible they walk too rarely; I am willing to accept that some managers do this too rarely. Some clearly do it too often. 5) Walking the dangerous guy because you flat out won't pitch to him. This requires such a strong hitter to be right due to the value of an out. I'd have a very hard time believing this is substantially underused. 6) Walking one guy to get to another somewhat similar guy. This is done way too often, many times in places that boggles the mind.

I suspect that what happened is that the quote comes from a time when the conventional wisdom was different and managers did in fact walk batters too rarely, especially due to issues of sportsmanlike conduct, but such considerations seem to be almost entirely gone.

Comment author: wedrifid 10 March 2011 12:47:00AM 0 points [-]

"If a man can beat you, walk him" does not mean "walk people more than you do currently".

Comment author: HonoreDB 10 March 2011 01:09:54AM 0 points [-]

So what does "can beat you" mean? I still don't understand this either in the context of baseball or rationality.

If "can beat you" means "could, theoretically, beat you" then you walk everybody. If "can beat you" means "is p>.5 to beat you" then you never intentionally walk anybody--if a pitcher is so tired he thinks the next batter is p>.5 to get a hit, he should ask to be relieved. If "can beat you" means "is p>k to beat you" where k is some threshold, then Paige does seem to be saying "walk people more than you do currently".

Comment author: wedrifid 10 March 2011 01:56:05AM *  0 points [-]

if a pitcher is so tired he thinks the next batter is p>.5 to get a hit

It isn't about tiredness or general competence.

The other replies here explain the quote well. I must affirm the rational decision making principle that is illustrated.

Comment author: benelliott 06 March 2011 02:43:29PM *  4 points [-]

What does this mean?

Comment author: Sideways 06 March 2011 05:28:08PM 9 points [-]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_base_on_balls

Baseball pitchers have the option to 'walk' a batter, giving the other team a slight advantage but denying them the chance to gain a large advantage. Barry Bonds, a batter who holds the Major League Baseball record for home runs (a home run is a coup for the batter's team), also holds the record for intentional walks. By walking Barry Bonds, the pitcher denies him a shot at a home run. In other words, Paige is advising other pitchers to walk a batter when it minimizes expected risk to do so.

Since this denies the batter the opportunity to even try to get a hit, some consider it to be unsportsmanlike, and when overused it makes a baseball game less interesting. A culture of good sportsmanship and interesting games are communal goods in baseball-- the former keeps a spirit of goodwill, and the latter increases profitability-- so at a stretch, you might say Paige advises defecting in Prisoner's Dilemma type problems.

Comment author: wedrifid 06 March 2011 10:02:18PM 2 points [-]

Since this denies the batter the opportunity to even try to get a hit, some consider it to be unsportsmanlike, and when overused it makes a baseball game less interesting.

... to some. There are others who enjoy watching games being played strategically. I don't, for example, take basketball seriously unless the teams are using a full court press.

What do you do, for example, if all the bases are loaded and the good hitter comes in? Do you give away the run? It may depend on the score and it would involve some complex mathematical reasoning. That single decision would be more memorable to me than the rest of the entire game of baseball!

A culture of good sportsmanship and interesting games are communal goods in baseball-- the former keeps a spirit of goodwill, and the latter increases profitability-- so at a stretch, you might say Paige advises defecting in Prisoner's Dilemma type problems.

The latter wouldn't be a reasonable claim to make, even taking your premises regarding what sportsmanship is and what is good for the game for granted. For Paige to be claimed to be advising defection in the Prisoner's Dilemma Paige would have to be asserting or at least believe that the payoffs are PDlike. Since Paige doesn't give this indication he instead seems to be advocating thinking strategically instead of following your pride.

Curiously, assuming another set of credible beliefs Paige could consider walking the batter to be the cooperation move in the game theoretic situation. Specifically, when there is another pitcher known to walk who cannot be directly influenced. If all the other pitchers publicly declare that the game's rules should be changed in such a way that free walking is less desirable and then free walk hitters whenever it is is strategic to do so they may force the rule-makers' hands. If just one pitcher tried this strategy of influence then he would lose utility, sacrificing his 'good guy' image without even getting all the benefits that the original free-walker got for being the 'lone bad boy strategic prick pitcher'. If all the pitchers except one cooperate then the one pitcher who lets himself be hit out of the park cleans up on the approval-by-simplistic-folks stakes by being the 'boy scout only true sportsman' guy while everyone else does the hard work of looking bad in order to improve the rules, the game in the long term and the ability of pitchers not to be competitively disadvantaged for being 'sportsmanlike'. (All of this is again assuming that no-free-walking is intrinsically good.)

I use an analogous strategy when playing the 500. I like to arrange house rules that put a suitable restriction (or incentive modification) for misere calls. If the opponents have their egos particularly attached to standard misere rules I allow their rules to be used and then bid open misere whenever it is rational to do so. Which is a lot.

The above is not exactly a threat simply for the purpose of enforcing my will. It is to a significant extent a simple warning. Some people sulk if they rarely get the kitty when they have the joker and 4 jacks. At least this way they are forewarned.

Comment author: benelliott 06 March 2011 05:44:38PM 1 point [-]

I'm sorry but I'm not very familiar with baseball. Does walking a batter mean something like intentionally throwing the ball to third or fourth base so he doesn't get caught out but can't do a home run?

If this is the case then it seems like the advice is more about knowing when to lose.

Comment author: CuSithBell 06 March 2011 05:56:52PM 7 points [-]

Basically, when you throw the pitch, there's a "strike zone" in front of the batter where any pitch that isn't hit counts as a strike, but where the batter is most able to hit the ball. If you throw the ball outside the strike zone, it's harder to hit, but if the batter doesn't swing, it doesn't count as a strike - it's a "ball". Four balls means the batter goes to first base.

Thus, if you don't want to risk a home run, just throw the ball where it can't possibly be hit a few times, and give up one base instead of several points.

It's sorta about knowing when to lose, but it's more like the old Sun Tzu chestnut: "In war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak."

Comment author: benelliott 06 March 2011 06:40:45PM 2 points [-]

Thanks

Comment author: CuSithBell 07 March 2011 01:22:57AM 1 point [-]

You're welcome :)

Comment author: CuSithBell 06 March 2011 05:26:48PM 1 point [-]

It's a baseball thing, I'd assume. It's saying, if you're a pitcher, don't try to strike out a batter who's going to hit a home run - just give up a base and strike out the next guy.

Comment author: Threedee 05 March 2011 08:58:18AM -2 points [-]

Is this too cryptic? :

Throw strikes. Home plate don't move. Satchel Paige

Comment author: wedrifid 05 March 2011 09:48:24AM *  4 points [-]

(Additional note)

It would have seemed less cryptic to me if the quote was formatted in a way that distinguished between your commentary, the quote itself and the quote author. I hadn't read your other contributions at the time so didn't realise that you didn't use a standard form. I did not realise that "Throw strikes. Home plate don't move." was the actual literal quote, as opposed to a cryptic reference in your own words to a quote that I was supposed to be familiar with.

Also:

Using formatting like this for quoting stuff just looks cooler.

-- wedrifid

Comment author: wedrifid 05 March 2011 09:23:51AM *  1 point [-]

Is this too cryptic?

Yes. I'm familiar enough with the rules of baseball that I can infer the sport and affirm that throwing strikes is a Good Thing for a pitcher to do and acknowledge that the home plate does, in fact, stay put. I am not sufficiently familiar with Satchel Paige or enamoured of the sport that I can guess why I am supposed to be inspired.

Google helped to clarify. It gave the full quote and put it in the context of what seems to be, shall we say, a KISS philosophy.

Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move.

-- Satchel Paige

(Google also gives a Paige quote that is a real gem of a rationality insight. Thanks for the indirect link!)

Comment author: Threedee 05 March 2011 08:53:28AM *  9 points [-]

Pragmatic rationality, perhaps? :

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. Yogi Berra

Comment author: ata 09 March 2011 05:43:54PM *  4 points [-]

Reminds me of Sidney Morgenbesser's response when he was asked his opinion of pragmatism: "It's all very well in theory, but it doesn't work in practice."

Comment author: wedrifid 05 March 2011 09:38:13AM *  4 points [-]

Grrr... At least with normal 'theory vs practice' quotes they stick to one (slightly broken) definition of theory in which 'theory' is (evidently) limited to oversimplified theories that don't fully account for specific details of practical execution. In this quote it conflates an encompassing definition of theory with the limited, specific caricature of the more typical theory/practice dichotomy presentations. Which is just all sorts of wrong.

Stick to your colloquialisms Yogi Berra! Don't get stuck half way to technical clarity. It's just an insult to all sides!

Comment author: CronoDAS 09 March 2011 11:46:06AM 2 points [-]

I've heard it said differently.

The difference between theory and practice is that, in theory, there is no difference.

Comment author: Threedee 05 March 2011 08:39:09AM *  3 points [-]

Perhaps this precedes subsequent rationality:

Every great advance in science has issued from a new audacity of imagination. John Dewey

Comment author: Threedee 05 March 2011 08:35:47AM *  1 point [-]

Knowing the risk, I quote this (given that I am a utilitarian pragmatist):

Truth is what works. William James

Comment author: Normal_Anomaly 05 March 2011 06:12:22PM 1 point [-]

Why is there a risk? Is it because of William James' reputation?

Comment author: Threedee 05 March 2011 08:28:20AM *  12 points [-]

If you believe that feeling bad or worrying long enough will change a past or future event, then you are residing on another planet with a different reality system.

William James

Comment author: Snowyowl 13 March 2011 11:10:17AM 0 points [-]

Possible corollary: I can change my reality system by moving to another planet.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 March 2011 11:28:47PM 15 points [-]

Outrage is fine if it leads to effective action. If it doesn't, it's just a hobby.

William T. Powers

Comment author: wedrifid 05 March 2011 09:40:56AM 6 points [-]

Like the spirit. Technically disagree with respect to future events. :)

Comment author: M88 05 March 2011 02:52:22AM *  4 points [-]

Scepticism is as much the result of knowledge, as knowledge is of scepticism. To be content with what we at present know, is, for the most part, to shut our ears against conviction; since, from the very gradual character of our education, we must continually forget, and emancipate ourselves from, knowledge previously acquired; we must set aside old notions and embrace fresh ones; and, as we learn, we must be daily unlearning something which it has cost us no small labour and anxiety to acquire.

Alexander Pope

Comment author: CronoDAS 05 March 2011 01:50:12AM 15 points [-]

In the middle of every silver lining there is a big black cloud.

-- Alonzo Fyfe

Comment author: Bongo 17 March 2011 12:55:09PM 1 point [-]

I upvoted this at first but... What about silver clouds?

Comment author: ata 04 March 2011 10:25:22PM 16 points [-]

Not to know is bad; not to wish to know is worse.

— Wolof proverb

Comment author: Miller 04 March 2011 10:05:10PM 4 points [-]

"Once we are all working in the slave-pits together, I will try to put in a good word for you all. I will be like the old Barnard Hughes character in Tron, who remembers the Master Control Program when it was just accounting software."

-- Ken Jennings

Comment author: Nic_Smith 05 March 2011 04:51:08AM 6 points [-]

Read straight, I'd say it's a contender 'or ultimate irrationality quote about the future of AI. Ya got your generalizing from fictional evidence there, a bit o' inappropriate anthropomorphizing, a dash o' failure to recognize the absurdity of the future...

Comment author: ata 04 March 2011 06:53:40PM *  7 points [-]

What we need is more people who specialize in the impossible.

— Theodore Roethke

Comment author: TheOtherDave 04 March 2011 08:37:29PM 6 points [-]

I'm not sure how I would distinguish people who specialize in the impossible from people who simply don't accomplish much of anything at all.

Comment author: gwern 05 March 2011 12:02:41AM 9 points [-]

I'd look for the explosions.

Comment author: JGWeissman 04 March 2011 09:04:11PM 12 points [-]

You would have to notice when they acheive the impossible.

Or that they make visible progress towards the impossible.

Or that they acheive interesting side projects in their down time from working on the impossible.

Comment author: wedrifid 04 March 2011 09:52:56PM *  6 points [-]

Or that they acheive interesting side projects in their down time from working on the impossible.

That is a good one (that applies even under strict definitions of 'the impossible'). Closely related is if they make valuable tangential contributions to the non-impossible while working on the impossible.

Comment author: sketerpot 04 March 2011 08:12:11PM *  1 point [-]

That's a tricky thing to specialize in. Got any ideas about how someone would go about it?

If you interpret "impossible" as meaning "things a lot of people call impossible", then the obvious method would be to make a list of such things, research them to see if there are any where you have a plausible chance of making a difference, and figure out which of them you'd prefer to specialize in.

Comment author: CuSithBell 04 March 2011 04:15:25PM *  10 points [-]

Homer: Why'd they build this ghost town so far away?

Lisa: Because they discovered gold right over there!

Homer: It's because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything.

The Simpsons, "Kidney Trouble"

Comment author: Costanza 04 March 2011 02:41:33PM 14 points [-]

An irrationality quote from Samuel Johnson via Boswell:

After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."

Comment author: mkehrt 05 March 2011 08:12:08AM 1 point [-]

I've always been a huge fan of this story.

Comment author: wedrifid 04 March 2011 07:46:53AM *  14 points [-]

Running into a pole is a drag, but never being allowed to run into a pole is a disaster. Pain is part of the price of freedom.

Daniel Kish (Human Echolocation researcher, advocate and instructor).

Comment author: Dorikka 05 March 2011 04:20:20AM 1 point [-]

I would rather see the pole coming so that I wouldn't run into it. I'm not sure this metaphor succeeded.

Comment author: BillyOblivion 05 March 2011 11:51:18AM 0 points [-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZUwdQA6KQ0

Start watching about 6:55 in.

Sometimes the there are bigger problems you have to get through, and then the pole is just there.

Comment author: wedrifid 05 March 2011 05:07:01AM *  8 points [-]

I would rather see the pole coming so that I wouldn't run into it. I'm not sure this metaphor succeeded.

I rather suspect you miss the point of the metaphor. Perhaps you also missed the entirely literal meaning as well. Seeing the pole coming is not an option you have available if, as is the case with Kish and many of the people he works with, you do not have retinas.

Comment author: Dorikka 05 March 2011 05:14:02AM 4 points [-]

I definitely missed the literal meaning -- thanks.

Comment author: NihilCredo 05 March 2011 02:57:57AM -1 points [-]

A truly elegant argument in favour of getting hit with a baseball bat every week.

Comment author: benelliott 05 March 2011 01:25:05PM 0 points [-]

There is an important distinction between 'not being allowed to run into a pole' and just 'not running into poles because you look where you're going'.

Comment author: wedrifid 05 March 2011 09:03:24AM 10 points [-]

A truly elegant argument in favour of getting hit with a baseball bat every week.

It seems to be an argument against restrictive paternalism, enforced dependence and misguided risk aversion.

The implied game analysis is something along the lines of the following:

  • Running into a pole is a drag (negative -100 utilons).
  • Living a life dependent on caretakers and restricted from most of human experience gives 50 utilons per day and results in 1 pole hit per 100 days.
  • Living a completely independent life open to most possible lifestyles and experiences is worth 1,000 utilons per day and, if you are blind, may result in running into a pole once every two days.

Within that framework he would consider anyone who limits themselves unnecessarily to be crazy (irrationally risk averse or suffering from learned helplessness) and anyone who restricts the options available to blind people under their control to be perpetrating a serious harm (through misguided but possibly well meaning paternalism).

Consider the following similar declaration:

Falling off a bike is a drag. When learning to ride children will inevitably fall off their bikes. A child never being allowing to ride is far worse than falling off a bike sometimes. Pain is part of the price of freedom.

Most people can acknowledge the deleterious effects of too much coddling of that kind and Kish emphasises that it applies in exactly the same way to blind people as well. And not just because they are deprived of the experience of mountain biking by echolocation but more importantly because it trains the coddlee to rely on caretakers rather than themselves, stifling initiative and capability in a way similar to that which Eliezer recently discussed.

Comment author: jschulter 05 March 2011 03:35:28AM 3 points [-]

I saw it more as opposing restrictions on one's ability to hit oneself in the head with a baseball bat every week. I'm not saying anyone should do it, but if they really want to I don't feel I have the right to stop them.

Comment author: Nominull 04 March 2011 05:08:06AM 20 points [-]

It's terrible not being able to be happy even though you're not wrong.

-Kaname Madoka, Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 18 July 2011 08:27:36AM 14 points [-]

Episode #7 of Madoka, and I'm thinking, "It's amazing how many anime problems can be solved by polyamory and the pattern theory of identity."

Comment author: Dorikka 22 July 2011 05:18:01AM 4 points [-]

Neither Google nor LW search is giving me much on "pattern theory of identity". What is it?

Comment author: [deleted] 30 September 2011 08:45:56PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: Dorikka 01 October 2011 06:42:50PM 0 points [-]

Gracias. Will take a look.

Comment author: Baughn 04 March 2011 11:05:09AM 3 points [-]

"If you ever want to save the universe, call me anytime."

  • QB, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
Comment author: RichardKennaway 03 March 2011 10:24:00PM 29 points [-]

What scientists have in common is not that they agree on the same theories, or even that they always agree on the same facts, but that they agree on the procedures to be followed in testing theories and establishing facts.

Bruce Gregory "Inventing Reality: Physics as Language" pp.186-187.

Comment author: austhinker 14 March 2011 01:21:28PM 1 point [-]

It might be more accurate to substitute "rules" for "procedures".

Unfortunately in Medicine at least, there seems to be a substantial degree of sloppiness in applying the rules, particularly in the use of metastudies.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 06 March 2011 10:27:50PM *  1 point [-]

...but that they agree on the procedures to be followed in testing theories and establishing facts.

I'm having trouble thinking of even a single decade in which all or even most scientists have agreed on what procedures should be followed in theory testing (let alone throughout the history of science). Can you?

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 March 2011 11:16:33PM 3 points [-]

That depends on the distance you view them from. Look at any two things closely enough, and you will see differences. Look at them from far enough away, and they will seem identical.

One major difference in evidential standards I can think of is the use of statistics. No-one collects statistics on how often an unsupported body will fall. I doubt the early chemists, at the stage when they didn't really know what substances they were working with, would have benefitted from statistical analyses of their results. Instead, they worked to find experiments that produced the same result every single time. In other areas, especially psychology, people gather statistics that are sometimes completely meaningless.

That's the only substantial variation I have thought of so far. What counterexamples are you thinking of?

Comment author: hamnox 06 March 2011 10:21:53PM 0 points [-]

I would give this five votes up if I could.

Comment author: BillyOblivion 05 March 2011 11:53:29AM 1 point [-]

Unfortunately that seems to be changing.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 05 March 2011 02:04:28PM 2 points [-]

Do you have specific examples in mind?

Comment author: BillyOblivion 08 March 2011 08:00:31AM 0 points [-]

As another poster mentioned the Anthroprogenic Climate Change debate. There is still debate about it, and the more light that is shown into the data, data gathering and processing methods of the primary investigators the more questions there are. Other statisticians and researchers have had to use FOIA (and the British equivalent) to get "raw" data and other information from researchers. If you won't release your raw data, and you won't release methods for processing that data then you really can't agree on anything, now can you?

So-called Alternative and Complementary "Medicine" being taken seriously by journals and organisations who should know better. And this is when the good studies show very, very little real effect these frauds. Especially things like Acupuncture and (for things like pneumonia and cancer) chiropractic care (I will note that spinal adjustments can be very valuable for some spinal problems).

Meaning stuff like this: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9912 (note that one of the main complaints of the author of that post is not that Chinese Medicine calls stuff by different (and humorous) names, but rather how it classifies and recommends treatment. This is a MAJOR point).

I also know people who've worked inside NASA and other labs and I know how much worldview and localized politics have influenced what got funded, and what was done with the funding. Not enough of the story to recount with any accuracy, but enough to know that there was a hand on the scales as it were.

I have a Popperish view of science, and I'm perfectly willing to accept that humans have some influence on temperature, I'm willing to buy that chemicals compounded by nature have greater effectiveness (or equal effectiveness with few undesirable effects) than chemicals compounded in a laboratory, but science is never settled, and if you want to hide your work you really don't deserve benefit of the doubt.

Comment author: Pavitra 08 March 2011 08:07:00PM 1 point [-]

Because the parent mostly comes off as a crank, I'll link to an intelligent person making similar arguments: Eric S. Raymond has a series of blog posts on the AGW controversy; the crunchiest posts in my opinion are here, here, here, and maybe here.

Comment author: alethiophile 06 March 2011 03:58:25AM 0 points [-]

The whole "science is settled" debacle in climate change? I'm not going to take a position on it, but it certainly seems to have become about that particular theory rather than the scientific method.

Comment author: Desrtopa 09 March 2011 02:42:44AM *  3 points [-]

Scientists in general do not agree on all the same theories, but that doesn't mean that some theories aren't so well supported that nearly all scientists accept them. Anthropogenic climate change is not as well supported as the atomic theory of chemistry, but it's sufficiently well evidenced that there's no reason why it should continue to be controversial among people acquainted with the data. It's in no way a failing of the scientific method if scientists are able to reach strong consensuses.

Comment author: RobinZ 06 March 2011 04:28:24AM 3 points [-]

I don't see what you mean. Is there some specific evidence you have regarding the breakdown of scientific principles in the context of climatology?

Comment author: BillyOblivion 08 March 2011 08:08:31AM 0 points [-]

There is plenty of evidence.

Someone released a bunch of code, data and emails from the East Anglica CRU which showed that they had attempted to hide data from the british equivalent of a FOIA request, that their data processing code was of very questionable quality, that they had attempted to and were at least marginally successful at suborning the process of getting papers peer reviewed in several journals.

The whole issue is rather murky with both sides slinging a lot of mud, but it's clear that what most of us consider "good science" was not being done.

Comment author: RobinZ 08 March 2011 08:20:10PM 4 points [-]

That's the email hacking case? I don't believe that constitutes good evidence of bad behavior on the part of the scientists involved - most of the allegations were invented by taking bits of the emails out of context.

Comment author: alethiophile 06 March 2011 08:36:09PM 0 points [-]

I don't have any specific evidence--but even "scientific" debate on the topic, between scientists, tends to largely ignore the merits of the science and become a political affair a la Green Vs. Blue, centered entirely on whether or not the participants accept the prevailing theory.

Comment author: RobinZ 07 March 2011 02:49:50AM 2 points [-]

I wasn't under the impression that climate science journals had degraded to that level - could you elaborate on what convinced you of this?

Comment author: alethiophile 09 March 2011 01:57:26AM 2 points [-]

I've not read the science journals, and so cannot comment on them. I'm referring to informal debate (as in blogs and so forth) by climate scientists.

Comment author: RobinZ 09 March 2011 03:13:31AM 2 points [-]

I don't think informal discussions are a good barometer for the health of a scientific field.