Furcas comments on Positive Thinking - Less Wrong

20 Post author: Swimmer963 07 March 2011 01:03AM

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Comment author: Furcas 07 March 2011 03:33:40AM 2 points [-]

The way your post more or less conflates the need for a community, the need for 'positive thinking', and the need for self-deception feels like grade A Dark Arts to me, especially because you've managed to slip in a suggestion that there's something bad about condemning self-deception.

Comment author: David_Gerard 07 March 2011 09:07:35AM 3 points [-]

Your comment seems to me to unduly assume bad faith from the poster and may benefit from rephrasing.

Comment author: Pavitra 08 March 2011 06:33:00AM 2 points [-]

If something presents a cognitive hazard, it is better to label it as such as unambiguously as possible.

Comment author: David_Gerard 08 March 2011 01:26:05PM -2 points [-]

That isn't what you did, though.

Comment author: Swimmer963 07 March 2011 12:46:59PM 1 point [-]

If someone wants to deceive themself, and the self-deception makes them LESS likely to behave hurtfully towards others, I feel I have no right to condemn them. I have the right to condemn MYSELF for self-deception, because it's my choice to aim for greater rationality, but I wouldn't force someone else to take that choice any more than I would force them to be religious.

Comment author: Furcas 07 March 2011 05:14:10PM 4 points [-]

More Dark Arts. Now you're conflating condemning some beliefs with forcing someone to abandon those beliefs.

Comment author: Desrtopa 07 March 2011 04:30:17PM 2 points [-]

Is the self deception necessary or optimal to achieve that behavior though? It might be better for them to be religious and altruistic than irreligious and antisocial, but might there not be an alternative that's better than either?

If you really don't judge people for their failings, can you be happy for them if they improve?

Comment author: [deleted] 07 March 2011 06:30:10PM 1 point [-]

It might be better for them to be religious and altruistic than irreligious and antisocial, but might there not be an alternative that's better than either?

Yes, that third alternative may be better (altruistic and irreligious), but it comes at a high cost (the individual usually loses that community, even if only from their own withdrawal) which will need a safety net prepared. And well prepared at that. I can vouch that a number of my religious friends, should they lose their religiosity, would likely fall closer to ethical nihilism, losing the altruism and being more bitter, which is all kinds of fun. So yeah, maybe it's better, but it's also significantly more costly, and the easier alternative is far from bad if it's strong on the altruistic side.

Comment author: Desrtopa 08 March 2011 08:55:51PM 0 points [-]

Which is why it's such a handy thing to have prosocial secular communities.

Comment author: [deleted] 08 March 2011 10:13:23PM 0 points [-]

We are not in disagreement here; my point was only noting a possible large risk of deconversions, which should be counted in the third alternative if the major social group of someone is their religious group.