DanielLC comments on On Branching vs Probability - Less Wrong

8 Post author: AlephNeil 21 March 2011 08:14PM

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Comment author: DanielLC 23 March 2011 03:30:24AM 0 points [-]

For what it's worth, my current way of thinking is that a quantum theory is neither "deterministic" nor "probabilistic" but just "quantum".

Is it possible to predict the final state given only the initial state? If so, it's deterministic. If not, it's probabilistic.

Comment author: Sniffnoy 24 March 2011 01:07:08AM 1 point [-]

I would think "probabliistic" should be reserved for things that are actually governed by probabilities. As you know, amplitudes don't really work like probabilities; if they did, the MWI hypothesis would be unneeded.

Comment author: AlephNeil 23 March 2011 04:29:56AM 0 points [-]

By the way, you might like to read the Scott Aaronson lecture I linked to in my post. Here's a quote:

I'm going to show you why, if you want a universe with certain very generic properties, you seem forced to one of three choices: (1) determinism, (2) classical probabilities, or (3) quantum mechanics.

Comment author: AlephNeil 23 March 2011 04:00:30AM *  0 points [-]

Yeah but you can make a "probabilistic" system look "deterministic" as long as you define the "state" in such a way as it includes the entire distribution.

Of course, a person could never observe that 'final state', but neither can a person observe the entire wavefunction.

For instance, you're only allowed to extract one bit of information about the spin of a given electron, even though the wavefunction (of the spin of a single electron) looks like a point on the surface of a sphere. This is analogous to how, given a {0,1}-valued random quantity, when you observe it you only extract one bit of information about it, even though its expectation value could have been anywhere in the interval [0,1].

My motto here is that if a theory is assigning weights to possible worlds then it's as far away from being deterministic as it's possible to be.

Comment author: DanielLC 23 March 2011 10:03:28PM 0 points [-]

So, it's probabilistic?

Comment author: AlephNeil 23 March 2011 10:25:52PM *  0 points [-]

Read and then get back to me if you still don't understand where I'm coming from.

Comment author: DanielLC 25 March 2011 06:09:06AM 0 points [-]

I'm not sure how much of a parallel can be drawn between probability and their extension of it.

Probability is a state of your knowledge. Quantum superposition has nothing to do with how much you know.

Comment author: AlephNeil 25 March 2011 01:40:10PM 0 points [-]

Probability is a state of your knowledge.

Two things to say:

  1. You're ruling out the possibility that the laws of physics are objectively probabilistic. (If they can be 'objectively quantum' why not 'objectively probabilistic'?)
  2. Even if you dogmatically insist that this is impossible in principle, we could still imagine a variation of my 'Theory 2' where the coin events are determined by the values of an algorithmically random sequence. The algorithmic randomness would be a property of the sequence itself, not anyone's knowledge of it.

Quantum superposition has nothing to do with how much you know.

Quantum superposition has "quite a lot" to do with the Born probabilities, and (according to you) the Born probabilities, being mere probabilities, have everything to do with how much you know.

I'm not saying a quantum universe is a probabilistic one. But that's really the whole point - it's neither probabilistic nor deterministic (except in the same vacuous sense that you can make it look deterministic if you carry the entire distribution around with you).

Comment author: pengvado 28 March 2011 06:24:27PM 0 points [-]

We could still imagine a variation of my 'Theory 2' where the coin events are determined by the values of an algorithmically random sequence. The algorithmic randomness would be a property of the sequence itself, not anyone's knowledge of it.

How do you get your hands on an algorithmically random sequence? If our physics isn't objectively probabilistic, then we can't even simulate Theory 2.