komponisto comments on Rationality Outreach: A Parable - Less Wrong

24 [deleted] 17 March 2011 01:10PM

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Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 17 March 2011 08:00:47PM 2 points [-]

Upvoted, but one quibble:

If you, say, claim that "Time didn't exist before the Big Bang" is a complete and satisfactory solution to the problem "Why does something exist instead of nothing?", rather than (as is the correct answer) trying to explain why saying "God" (a) doesn't help and (b) constitutes the cardinal sin of Just Making Stuff Up, then you have lost all claim to any moral victory.

The point of that sort of argument, in my view, is not to propose a satisfactory solution, but to demonstrate why the question isn't meaningful. When a person asks a question like "What caused the universe?", ey is assuming that the universe needs a cause. However, causality is a property of events within a time-ordered system, and the universe is such a system, rather than being within the system. Time and space are unified, so considering them separately (which is what the question does) is erroneous.

This is similar for questions like "why is there something rather than nothing?". Implicit in the question is the possibility that there could have been nothing, and that's wholly unsupported by observation; even the vacuum is full of virtual particles. We may think that we can imagine that possibility, but that doesn't make it viable. That kind of question is never going to have a satisfactory answer, because the underlying premise is faulty.

I agree that it's important to point out how "God" isn't a good answer to those questions, but I think it's more important to point out the flawed thinking which leads to asking the questions in the first place.

Comment author: komponisto 17 March 2011 09:06:36PM 4 points [-]

I agree with this comment except for the last part:

...it's important to point out how "God" isn't a good answer to those questions, but I think it's more important to point out the flawed thinking which leads to asking the questions in the first place.

I happen to think pointing out how "God" is a bad answer is actually more important.

Nonetheless, the other lesson -- that the laws of physics do not necessarily have to carve up reality the way your brain wants to -- is also important, and I think Eliezer exaggerates when he says that your answer is "every bit as terrible as the religious one". As Sean Carroll puts it:

Modern physics doesn’t describe the world in terms of “causes” and “effects.” It simply posits that matter...acts in accordance with certain dynamical laws, known as “equations of motion.”... a concept like “cause” doesn’t appear anywhere in the equations of motion themselves, nor in the specification of the type of matter being described; it is only an occasionally-appropriate approximation, useful to us humans in narrating the behavior of some macroscopic configuration of equation-obeying matter.

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 17 March 2011 09:15:18PM *  3 points [-]

I happen to think pointing out how "God" is a bad answer is actually more important.

That probably has more short-term importance for exposing theistic irrationality, but in the long-term, I think overcoming flawed thinking is more important for making progress.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 17 March 2011 09:08:17PM 6 points [-]

Disagree with Sean Carroll. The property that Judea Pearl defines in "Causality" is a central part of the character of physical law.

And even if what Sean Carroll said was true, there'd still be a big important problem to be resolved somehow.

It's okay to have big outstanding problems. You don't have to say "God" and you don't have to sweep them under the rug either.

Comment author: wnoise 17 March 2011 10:58:08PM 5 points [-]

Disagree with Sean Carroll. The property that Judea Pearl defines in "Causality" is a central part of the character of physical law.

I'd have to strongly disagree with that. It's certainly why we're interested in physical law, and how we test our understanding of physical law. But the central character of physical law admits no interventions when describing things at the lowest level.