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ewbrownv comments on Crime and punishment - Less Wrong
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You think having your brain forcibly re-written isn't a punishment? A robot using physical force on you isn't a threat? No, law = threat of punishment in every past or existing society, because that's the only way it can work unless you have universal mind pre-emptive mind control or a godlike singleton AI.
The idea that there's some alternative to punishing criminals only seems sensible if you redefine 'punishment' to leave out whatever you're suggesting as an alternative to prison time.
Conversely, the idea that the only effective thing you can ever do to lower crime rates is punish criminals only makes sense if you define "punishment" to include anything that lowers crime rates.
Just to be concrete for a second: if stores S1 and S2 both have the same rate (R0) of shoplifting, and S1 implements a policy of prosecuting all shoplifters to the fullest extent of the law and its rate drops to R1, and S2 implements a policy of putting up signs everywhere with sad-looking cartoon characters with big eyes expressing various kinds of sadness over shoplifting and its rate drops to R2.
Are you asserting that:
...because S2's policy isn't punishment-based, it's not going to reduce the shoplifting rate, so R2 ~= R0?
...because S2's policy isn't punishment-based, it's not going to reduce the shoplifting rate as much as punishment does, so R2 > R1?
...we don't know whether S2's policy is punishment-based based on this information; if R2 <= R1 then perhaps it is?
...this example has nothing to do with what we're talking about?
...other?
Those things are doubtless unpleasant, or at least undesired, but if the unpleasantness is merely a side effect and the intended prevention of crimes happens independently of the unpleasantness then they are not punishments in the sense that's relevant here.
Of course, if someone wants to do X and a society's enforcement mechanisms -- whatever they are -- stops them doing X, or does something to make doing X unattractive to them despite their wanting to do it, then that's going to be unpleasant for them. In that sense, crime implies punishment. But it's a very weak sense and not, I think, the one that's relevant to this discussion.