BrianScurfield comments on What is wrong with "Traditional Rationality"? - Less Wrong
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You say Eliezer is just talking about the pop-culture version of Popper, rather than actual Popperian philosophy. So he knows the difference right? He knows that pop-culture contains a lot of myths about Popper right? I don't think so. Eliezer's criticisms are actually directed at Popper, but he doesn't understand Popper, only some pop-culture version.
Here is an example from my wild and reckless youth:
This is directed at Popper. It shows that Eliezer doesn't know that criticism and explanation are major components of Popperian philosophy and that rather than spending 30 years trying to test a "silly idea", a Popperian would criticize it to see if it stands up as a good explanation. The idea is presumed to be silly, so it would not stand up and the scientist can get on with enjoying the next 30 years. If Eliezer recognized it was just a pop-culture cartoon he would have said so and he would have differentiated that from the actual Popper. He didn't.
What makes you say that?
The issue of criticism and explanation is raised in A Prodigy of Refutation, but note that Eliezer never brings up Popper at all, only the expectations that the common culture of traditional rationalists imposed on him.
It's the sort of thing people who don't know much about Popperian philosophy say when they try to criticize him. People who know a lot about Popper encounter the same myths time and again. Here the myth is Popperism is falsificationism.
Eliezer doesn't mention explantion in the link you gave.
Let me see if I understand this. Many people criticise Popper for being X. Eliezer criticises X. Therefore Eliezer criticises Popper.
I'm afraid I don't follow the chain of logic here at all.
Eliezer has mentioned Popper by name in a number of places and said that "Previously, the most popular philosophy of science was probably Karl Popper's falsificationism". See: http://yudkowsky.net/rational/bayes
So he thinks (or did think) Popperism is falsificationism. He doesn't realize he is criticizing a pop-culture myth.
He is also wrong about the popularity of Popper.
(BTW, this rate filtering is a pain. I'm now aware of three people, including myself, who are critical of Bayesianism and who have zero kharma. Does this happen a lot?)
Seems to have just happened recently. Though similar things have happened before, I'm sure.
To try to see why you were at 0 points, I looked through the first two pages of your comments. Sorry if this advice is unsolicited, but I think there are some things you could fix.
Downvoted thing one: "Aristotle invented the idea of induction. It is a major false idea in philosophy, one that Less Wrong subscribes to. If you disagree, please show me a criticism of induction in the sequences."
Reasons for getting downvoted: Not being charitable (i.e. doing your homework even when the other person seems wrong) leading to a fairly false equivalence between different things called "induction." Demand that someone else show you a specific piece of evidence that you could find as easily as they.
2: "Good criticisms here, yet downvoted to -3. Do LWer's really want to be less wrong?"
Reasons for getting downvoted: Fairly obvious, this didn't work, try to do something more effective next time.
3: This long comment.
Things you could do better in this comment: Stick close to a few key points rather than trying to argue against everything - if you'd just posted the response to the first quote you would have communicated much better despite saying less. In fact arguing against everything is generally a bad sign, since (charity here) you should start out working from the assumption that the other person is partially right. You come across as too attached to one "big idea" and not sensitive enough to context because you bring Popper into your replies to points (e.g. his second one) that had nothing to do with Popper. If you're feeling confrontational, try to not let it show through in the post - win by being better than the other person at this sort of argumentation, and don't start any of your replies with "Lol."
I actually don't care about kharma - I'm not posting to get good kharma. Neither is curi. Disagreements should be resolved by discussion and by criticism, not by voting. I was just wondering how many people who disagree with Bayesianism end up with 0 kharma on LW and whether that isn't a bias? BTW, how do you know the reason something got downvoted?
With regard to your comments:
I have not found something on LW arguing that induction is impossible, the Popperian position. I have read a bunch of stuff here (done some homework) and it seems to me to be in the inductivist tradition of Aristotelian philosophy. I know other people who say the same thing and LW'ers that I have talked to seem incredulous that induction is impossible. So if you claim not to be in this mainstream tradition, I don't see how that can be and asking for material I cannot find is reasonable.
That wasn't an attempt to get upvotes. It was a comment to curi, who I know.
If I just commented on the first quote, people would have accused me of disputing the definition (which they did anyway - oh well). The "rules followed by scientists" refers to "traditional philosophy", by which Eliezer/Oscar mean Popper. Some commenters think Eliezer is only criticizing pop-culture. That is not so: he is criticizing Popper, and there are other posts where he makes this explicit. So Popper has everything to do with this.
You said not to start any replies with "lol". Popperians will try doing different things in conversation to see how the other person reacts. Are they concerned with style over substance? Do they place too much emphasis on emotional reactions? Are they conformists? I wasn't doing that in this instance, but by enforcing rigid standards of communication you lose knowledge. curi talks more about this in his threads.
Karma is not a method of resolving disagreements here, it's a feedback mechanism. If your comments are being heavily downvoted, it lets you know that people are finding something objectionable about them. Ideally we would like to be able to resolve disagreements here by discussion or experiment, but not all discussion is fruitful, and when a debate persists without a useful exchange of information or changing of opinions, then many people are going to want to see less of it.
If you are interested in communicating ideas playing experiments with your audience is probably not helpful for your goals. Moreover, just because someone is "concerned with style over substance" or is a "conformist" does not mean they have nothing useful to offer.
Moreover, in most internet conversations, the vast majority of readers are people who will never comment. If you have any interest in getting them to listen, coming across as rude, or unnecessarily obnoxious will not endear you to them.
It can be. Conventional social rules often mask disagreements and are designed to do that. If you stick to the social rules, the truth can take longer to come out.
I agree, but I didn't say that.
I think stating the truth about things is enough not to endear yourself to a lot of people, so trying to endear yourself to them isn't going to help.
I'm pretty sure it's a mistake to lump together everyone who says induction is possible as "the mainstream tradition".
They are all in the justificationist tradition, which is mainstream.
By that same logic, I could say "Popper is in the non-quantitative tradition, which is mainstream (in contrast to Bayesian epistemology)". Reflecting one aspect of the mainstream, even a particularly important one, is still not sufficient for actually being mainstream.
There a variety of issues going on here. Manfred pointed out many of them. There's another issue here that is you've had an influx of users all of whom are arguing for essentially the same set of positions and not doing it very well with a bit of rudeness thrown in. One of the three is being particularly egregious, and I suspect that there may be some spill-over in attitude from that user's behavior towards how people are voting about you. I will note that in the threads responding to the various Popperian criticisms, various LW regulars are willing to say when another LWian has said something they think is wrong. It might help to distinguish yourselves if you were willing to point out when you think the others are wrong. For example, you haven't posted at all in this thread. Do you agree with everything he has said there? If you disagree will you say so or do you feel a need to stay silent to protect a fellow member of your tribal group?
For what it is worth, I'm not a Bayesian. I think that Bayesianism has deep problems especially surrounding 1) the difficulty of where priors come from 2) the difficulty of meaningfully making Bayesian estimates about abstract systems. I've voiced those concerns before here, and many of those comments have been voted up. Indeed, I recently started a subthread discussing a problem with the Solomonoff prior approach which has been voted up.
I agree with curi that the Conjunction Fallacy does not exist. But if I disagreed I would say so - Popperians don't hold back from criticism of each other. If my criticism hit its mark, then curi would change his mind and I know that because I participate in Popperian forums that curi participates in. That said, most Popperians I know think along similar lines; I see more disagreement among Bayesians about their philosophy here.
Your thread is about a technical issue and I think Bayesians are more comfortable discussing these sort of things.
He's not doing a very good job making that case. Do you think you can do a better job?
Also, let's go through some of his other claims in that thread. I'm curious which you agree with: Do you agree with the rest of what he has to say in that thread when he claims that "bad pseudo-scientific research designed to prove that people are biased idiots"? Do you agree with him that there is a deliberate "agenda" within the cognitive bias research "which has a low opinion of humans" which is "treating humans like dirt, like idiots"?
Do you agree with his claim that the conjunction fallacy is a claim about all thought about conjunctions and not some conjunctions?
Do you agree with his claim that ""Probability estimate" is a technical term which we can't expect people to know? Do you agree with his implicit claim that this should apply even to highly educated people who work as foreign policy experts?
I think the problem is that Eliezer mentions Popper by name, in the vicinity of X, thereby encouraging an association between Popper and X. I don't have quotes handy but I did see a quote like that cited in the last day or two.
First: bear in mind that Popper was brought up by Oscar Cunningham - EY has probably mentioned him at some point, but not often, and never in the essay you quoted from.
Second: Familiarity with the pop culture idea in no wise implies familiarity with the real thing - more often the opposite.