Vladimir_M comments on Arational quotes - Less Wrong

0 Post author: Dr_Manhattan 14 April 2011 12:58AM

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Comment author: Vladimir_M 14 April 2011 05:21:57PM *  8 points [-]

This quote sounds somewhat trite, but its message is straightforward, clear, and coherent, and while one may disagree with the opinion it expresses, it is at the very least plausible prima facie. As with the Regan quote in the earlier comment, I am baffled as to what elements of irrationality you (and those who upvoted the comment) find in it, let alone what makes it so remarkable that it's worth quoting years after it was said.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 April 2011 06:41:10PM 4 points [-]

I am baffled as to what elements of irrationality you (and those who upvoted the comment) find in it

So you are baffled by both quotes.

I offer the hypothesis that the function of the repetition of these quotes down the years has been to signal tribal affiliation. This being the case, the fact that outsiders are baffled may be a strength, because this reveals them as non-tribe-members. The quotes then serve a function similar to that of an inside joke.

Comment author: rhollerith_dot_com 14 April 2011 06:48:01PM *  5 points [-]

the function of the repetition of these quotes down the years has been to signal tribal affiliation.

Affiliation with the tribe against Reagan and Bush, right?

Comment author: Vladimir_M 14 April 2011 09:06:14PM *  2 points [-]

I offer the hypothesis that the function of the repetition of these quotes down the years has been to signal tribal affiliation.

Your hypothesis seems clearly true to me, and I have thought of it myself. However, with these quotes, I was really unable to figure out which exact bad-faith misinterpretation was being suggested. (Admittedly, as I note in my response to Joshua Z., my own original interpretation of the Bush quote may have been too favorable, though even in that case, it still requires a hostile over-stretching to make the quote a remarkable exhibit of irrationality.)

Comment author: JoshuaZ 14 April 2011 05:27:00PM 0 points [-]

It seems that an implicit part of the quote is that having certainty is a good thing because it makes decisions easier even when they might be difficult. I am however worried by the prevalence of quotes (granted only two right now) of quotes from a specific end of the political spectrum. This is a thread that could easily go into mind-killing territory.

Comment author: Vladimir_M 14 April 2011 09:01:51PM *  4 points [-]

Hm... it is possible that my English comprehension has failed me.

I interpreted the phrase "which way the wind is blowing" to mean the prevailing fashion and majority opinion, so that the quote would contrast making decisions based on principled conviction with bowing down to momentary fashion and popular pressure. (This phrase, i.e. its literal translation, is commonly used in this sense in my native language.) However, looking it up, now I see that this is not its usual meaning in English, though such meaning is attested to some degree.

So the question is, did Bush actually use the phrase "which way the wind is blowing" with this somewhat unusual meaning? It's hard for me to tell. (Even if this meaning is unusual or archaic, I can think of at least one other occasion when Bush was derided by many people for using what they thought was a bizarrely incorrect word, but the joke was in fact on them and their ignorance, since the word is nowadays unusual and archaic, but perfectly standard and well-attested. I have in mind the occasion when he referred to "Grecians.")

In any case, even if Bush didn't have this meaning in mind, the quote can be interpreted as making the assertion that in matters of politics firm and consistent principles provide a better guide for action than frantic and futile attempts to analyze each particular situation better than is actually possible, which leads to overthinking and indecisiveness. Whether or not one agrees with this, it's certainly not something deserving of being included into a chrestomathy of human irrationality.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 April 2011 09:27:55PM 4 points [-]

I interpreted the phrase "which way the wind is blowing" to mean the prevailing fashion and majority opinion, so that the quote would contrast making decisions based on principled conviction with bowing down to momentary fashion and popular pressure. 

This is a major meaning of it in English as I know it. And I have a reference - see below. 

(This phrase, i.e. its literal translation, is commonly used in this sense in my native language.) 

Not surprising - they probably have a common historical origin, with somebody along the line translating the phrase.

However, looking it up, now I see that this is not its usual meaning in English, though such meaning is attested to some degree.

Whatever reference you consulted seems to have misled you. Here is a reference which explains:

The figurative sense of 'the way the wind blows', i.e. meaning the tide of opinion, was in use by the early 19th century. In November 1819...

So this meaning has been active for almost two centuries, if not longer. And since Bush is a politician, who ultimately succeeds or fails on the basis of the tide of opinion, this creates a strong presumption in favor of this meaning. If Bush were speaking as a sailor, it would be the other way around. But he wasn't. 

Comment author: JoshuaZ 14 April 2011 09:04:02PM 0 points [-]

Yes, this is a plausible interpretation. It seems that the quote is just very ambiguous about what was intended. It is functioning more as an inkblot for us than anything else (and yes, I know that test actually doesn't work but the point should be clear).

Comment author: [deleted] 14 April 2011 09:48:38PM *  3 points [-]

and yes, I know that test actually doesn't work but the point should be clear

The general topic of the persistence of representations of outdated technology in speech and graphic symbols is one that has long interested me. Some still-used pictures of obsolete or becoming-obsolete technologies are: an old-style bell, an old-style metal key of a sort that has been obsolete for a very long time, old telephone or handset, paper envelope (e.g. to represent e-mail), a spherical black bomb, a boat anchor of a certain very old style which modern anchors don't much resemble, a circular 12-hour clock face which used to be used because of how a clock worked, but which is now displayed (when it is) partly for familiarity. And the even older technology: the hourglass! Still used to represent time passing.

Comment author: Vladimir_M 14 April 2011 09:13:48PM 2 points [-]

I looked for the context of the quote, and it was an impromptu answer to a question from the audience. Clearly, on such occasions it's hard to expect anything else from a professional politician.