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Peterdjones comments on Three consistent positions for computationalists - Less Wrong
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The claim that consciousness is fame in the brain, and the claim that qualia are incommunicable because of complexity are somewhat contradictory, because what is made famous in the brain can be subjectively quite simple, but remains incommunicable.
A visual field of pure blue, or a sustained note of C#, is not fundamentally easier to convey than some complex sensation. Whilst there maybe complex subconscious processing and webs of association involved in the production of qualia, qualia can be simple as presented to consciousness. The way qualia seems is the way they are, since they are defined as seemings. And these apparently simple qualia are still incommunicable, so the problem of communicating qualia is not the problem of communicating complexity.
Something that is famous in the brain needs to have a compelling quality, and some qualia, such as pains have that in abundance. However, others do not. The opposite of blindsight — access consciousness without phenomenal consciousness — is phenomenal consciousness without access consciousness, for instance "seeing something out of the corner of ones eye. Not only are qualia not uniformally compelling, but one can have mental content that is compelling, but cognitive rather than phenomenal, for instance an obsession or idée fixe; .
"And if someone did know enough about color to explain all the associations that it has, well, having associations explained to you isn't normally enough for you to make the same associations in the same way yourself, "
To some physicalists, it seems obvious that a physcial description of brain state won't convey what that state is like, because it doesn't put you into that state. Of course, a description of a brain state won't put you into a brain state, any more than a description of photosynthesis will make you photosynthesise. But we do expect that the description of photosynthesis is complete, and actually being able to photosynthesise would not add anything to our knowledge. We don't expect that about experience. We expect that to grasp what the experience is like, you have to have it. If the 3rd-person description told you what the experience was like, explained it experientially, the question of instantiating the brain-state would be redundant. The fact that these physicalists feel it would be in some way necessary means they subscribe to some special, indescribable aspect of experience even in contradiction to the version of physicalism that states that everything can be explained in physicalese.Everything means everything — include some process whereby things seem differnt from the inside than they look from the outide. They still subscribe to the idea that there is a difference between knowledge-by-aquaintance and knowledge-by-description, and that is the distinction that causes the trouble for all-embracing explanatory physicalism.
Weaker forms of physicalism are still posible, however.
"can say that when I've read articles about how echolocation works, and what sorts of things it reveals or conceals, I've felt like I know a tiny bit more about what it's like to be a bat than I did before reading the articles."
But everyone has the experience of suddenly finding out a lot more about something when they experience it themselves. That is what underpins the knowledge-by-acquaintance versus knowledge-by-description distinction.
As I have already argued, it is not the case that everything is functional or has a functional analysis off the bat: that cannot be assumed apriori. I cannot see the functiona analysis of a blob of chewing gum or a magnetic field. Funcitonal things need well defined inputs, well defined outputs, and a well-defined separation between them and its inner workings,
Since funtionalism is not a universal apriori truth, I see no reason to "codemn to the flames" any non-functional notion of qualia.
I think we know what qualia are because we have them, But that is knowledge-by-acquaintance. It is again question-begging to say that the very idea of qualia has to be rejected unless they can be described. The indescribability of qualia is the essence of the Hard Problem. But we cannot say that we know apriori that only describable things exist.
Unpack this. You know what your qualia are because you have them. I know what my qualia are because I have them. We come to use the same word for these impressions ... why, exactly?
What was it Wittgenstein said about remaining silent?
We also both call our kidneys kidneys. I don't see the big deal.
I didn't realise Witt was 100% correct about everything.
Only because we are able to describe our kidneys.
I can describe qualia in general as the way thing seem to us. I can't describe them much more specifically than that.
I don't believe so. I'll accept that you can describe them as the way things seem to you. Or define them as the way things seem to us. What I am saying is that you cannot convince me that the definition has a definiendum unless you get more specific. Certainly, your intuitions on the significance of that 'seeming' have no argumentative force on anyone else until you offer some explanation why they should know what you are talking about.
Sit on a brass tack. If you feel nothing, I will accept that the deifintion has no definiendum for you, even though it does for me and everyone else.
That reply would be cogent if I claimed not to feel pain. It not useful in this context, though, since I claim not to understand exactly what you do and don't mean by "qualia".
It does serve as a single example though. Provide a few dozen more, plus another few dozen examples of mental events that are not qualia, and a brief explanation of what it is that separates the negative and positive examples - do that and you will have communicated a concept. That is, you will have done so if no one disagrees with your lists and explanations and has a different understanding of the word 'qualia'.
Sometimes I wonder whether this is the reason that philosophers never produce such lists. When you read a text on thermodynamics, say, you will spend many pages going over the meanings of important technical terms like system, open, and closed. But, it is worth it because when you are done, everyone is on the same page. :)
An example would be the way lemons taste to you, as opposed to their chemical composition. Other examples: the way a sunset looks, the way sandpaper feels, the smell of coffee, a stomach-ache a sharp pain, such as sitting on a thumbtack. There are therefore qualia corresponding to all the traditional sensory modalities, although nothing need be sensed to have a quale — they occur in dreams, for instance. Some people include the "phenomenal feels" of emotional states along with qualia, although these are something of an edge case. Phenomenal states or qualia form one of three large and overlapping categories of mental states, the others being cognitive/intentional states and states of volition, will and decision-making.
Maybe this analogy is helpful: saying "qualia" isn't giving us insight into consciousness any more than saying "phlogiston" is giving us insight into combustion. However, that doesn't mean that qualia don't exist or that any reference to them is nonsensical. Phlogiston exists. However, in our better state of knowledge, we've discarded the term and now we call it "hydrocarbons".
The word "qualia" doesn't have to justify its existence by providing a solution. It can justify its use by outlining a problem.
Not really helpful (though I don't see why it deserved a downvote). It is not that I object to the term 'qualia' because I think it is a residue of discredited worldviews. I object to the term because I have never seen a clear enough exposition of the term so that I could understand/appreciate the concept pulling any weight in an argument.
And, as I stated earlier, I particularly object when philosophers offer color qualia as paradigmatic examples of atomic, primitive qualia. Haven't philosophers ever read a science book? Color vision has been well understood for some time. Cones and rods, rods of three kinds, and all that. So color sensation is not primitive.
And moving up a level from neurons to mind, I cannot imagine how anyone might suggest that there is a higher-level "experience" of the color green which is so similar to an experience of smell-of-mothballs or an experience of A-major-chord so that all three are instances of the same thing - qualia.
Nothing much hinges on the claim that colour qualia are not really primitive. If we could use their non-primitivity to communicate them, you would be on to something, but the scientific understanding you mention isn't subjectively accessible.
You seem happy with the idea that all those disparate experiences are experiences. Why not be happy with the idea that they are all qualia?
Yes, I agree that this kind of atomism is silly, and by implication that things like Drescher's gensym analogy are even sillier. Nonetheless, the black box needs a label if we want to do something besides point at it and grunt.