That mental entities don't exist at all is a very bold claim: much bolder than the claim about the supernatural that you bracket it with, and one that many physicalists would disagree with. Moreover, neither claim follows from the very general consideration (which in itself I do not contend) that there is a "mind projection fallacy".
The mind projection fallacy (or more specifically, the Less Wrong sequence on it) is more than sufficient as an explanation for how mental and supernatural entities are perceived; what "many physicalists" may or may not believe is not really relevant here.
are you talking about promissory reduction (we have to believe it will arrive one day)....or what?
I'm saying the Less Wrong sequences on reductionism and quantum physics will be useful in dissolving your confusion about qualia.
I have read arguments for and against qualia, and found them both to be based on reason.
But not Bayesian evidence, which is what's relevant on LessWrong.com. This is a community devoted to furthering the practice of Bayesian rationalism, not the discussion of philosophy in general, or what philosophers consider to be reasonable or not reasonable. This is a community that considers dissolution of the confusion about "free will" to be a basic exercise in rationality, rather than an abstruse philosophical question requiring years of argument, or something that's still considered an unsettled open question, subject to disagreement.
I think it is possible for reasonable people to disagree deeply.
...and on LessWrong, we agree that's true... IF and only if one or more of these conditions apply:
If you believe that there is some other way for reasonable people to disagree, then it's a good indication that we're not on the same page enough to bother talking about this at all.
OK. Someone doesn't like Chalmers's Zombie argument.
If you think that's just an opinion, you don't get Bayesianism yet; that's why I suggested the Sequences to you, in case you're genuinely interested in being able to settle philosophical arguments once and for all, instead of just having philosophical arguments. ;-)
I never mentioned zombies in the first place...
You didn't need to. Any argument for epiphenomenalism reduces in roughly the same way: if it has an effect, then the effect is phenomenal and reducible. If it doesn't have an effect (i.e. produces no difference in our predicted observations), why do we care?
Ontologically fundamental mental entities of any sort require one to think of the mind as a supernatural entity, rather than a physical one. But it's very hard to notice that you're doing this, because it's implicit in how we think about thinking by default.
Ontologically fundamental mental entities of any sort require one to think of the mind as a supernatural entity, rather than a physical one.
What's a "supernatural entity"? The word 'supernatural' is ill-defined: if something exists in the real world, then it is natural by definition.
For the record, I don't think minds are ontologically fundamental per se, because minds are far too complex and they're explained already by physical brains. But it may be that some precursor of subjective experience is fundamental.
Yesterday, as a followup to We are not living in a simulation, I posted Eight questions for computationalists in order to obtain a better idea of what exactly my computationalist critics were arguing. These were the questions I asked:
I got some interesting answers to these questions, and from them I can extract three distinct positions that seem consistent to me.
Consistent Position #1: Qualia skepticism
Perplexed asserted this position in no uncertain terms. Here's my unpacking of it:
"Qualia do not exist. The things that you're confused about and are mistaking for qualia can be made clear to you using an argument phrased in terms of computation. When you talk about consciousness, I think I can understand your meaning, but you aren't referring to anything fundamental or particularly well defined: it's an unnatural category."
The internal logic of the qualia skeptic's position makes sense to me, and I can't really respond to it other than by expressing personal incredulity. To me, the empirical evidence in support of the existence of qualia is so clear and so immediate that I can't figure out what you're not seeing so that I can point to it. However, I shouldn't need to bring you to your senses (literally!) on this in order to convince you to reject Bostrom's simulation argument, albeit on grounds completely different than any I've argued so far. If you don't buy that there's anything fundamental behind consciousness, then you also shouldn't buy Bostrom's anthropic reasoning in which he conjures up the reference class of "observers with human-type experiences"; elsewhere he refers to "conscious experience" and "subjective experience" without implication that he means anything more specific. That's taking an unnatural category and invoking it magically. In the statement that we are something selected with uniform probability from that group, how do you make sense of "are"?
Consistent Position #2: Computation is implicit in physics
This position is my best attempt at a synthesis of what TheOtherDave, lessdazed, and prase are getting at. It's compatible with position #1, but neither one entails the other.
To understand this position, it is helpful, but not necessary, to define the laws of physics in terms of something like a cellular automaton. Each application of the automaton's update rule can be understood as a primitive operation in a computation. When you apply the update rule repeatedly on cells nearby each other, you're building up a more complex computation. So, "consciousness is just computation" is equivalent in meaning, essentially, to "consciousness is just physics".
This position more-or-less necessitates answering "algorithms" to question #5, or if not that then at least something similar to RobinZ's answer. If you say "functions" then you at least need to explain how to reify the concepts of "input" and "output". You can pull this off by saying that the update rules are the functions, the inputs are the state before the rule application, and the outputs are the state afterward. Any other answer probably means you're taking something closer or identical to position #3 which I'll address next. This comment by peterdjones and his followups to it provide a (Searlesque) intuition pump showing other reasons why a "functions" reply is problematic.
I have no objection to this position. However, it does not imply substrate independence, and strongly suggests its negation. If your algorithmic primitives are defined at the level of individual update-rule applications, then any change whatsoever to an object's physical structure is a change to the algorithm that it embodies. If you accept position #2 while rejecting position #1, then you may actually be making the same argument that I am, merely in different vocabulary.
Consistent Position #3: Computation is reified by physics
I was both shocked and pleased to see zaph's answer to question #6, because it bites a bullet that I never believed anyone would bite: that there is actually something fundamental in the laws of physics which defines and reifies the concept of computation in a substrate-independent fashion. I can't find any inconsistency in this, but I think we have good reason to consider it extremely implausible. In the language of physics which is familiar to us and has served us well — the language whose vocabulary consists of things like "particle" and "force" and "Hilbert space" — the Kolmogorov complexity of a definition of an equivalence relation which tells us that an AND gate implemented in a MOSFET is equivalent to an AND gate implemented in a neuron is equivalent to an AND gate implemented in desert rocks, but is not equivalent to an OR gate implemented in any of those media — is enormous. Therefore, Solomonoff induction tells us that we should assign vanishingly low probability to such a hypothesis.
I hope that I've fairly represented the views of at least a majority of computationalists on LW. If you think there's another position available, or if you're one of the people I've called out by name and you think I've pigeonholed you incorrectly, please explain yourself.