Tyrrell_McAllister comments on Your Evolved Intuitions - Less Wrong
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What about the prediction that people would (statistically) sacrifice themselves for three brothers but not one, or for nine cousins but not three? Would this qualify, provided that these specific numbers were empirically observed? After all, no competing theory makes such precise numerical predictions, to my knowledge. So, if observations were to bear out these numbers, then that would provide strong Bayesian evidence for the evolutionary origins of this kind of altruism.
Also, some of the things that you're calling "postdictions" are not universally acknowledged to be facts — e.g., claims about psychological differences between men and women. So, to the extent that convincing empirical evidence for these differences ultimately arises, wouldn't that qualify as an honest prediction of evolutionary psychology?
Could you find examples of societies who act differently? Yes. Can culture twist/avoid Kin altruism? If so, I can also invent an evolutionary story to fit that culture just as easily. Does EP explain all of these different cultures via natural selection? I did not find any so far. Evolutionary biology always seems to "explain" a narrow provincial behavior and always in postdictions.
What is satisfying? Something accurate enough avoiding ambiguity, taking in account of all of the facts & and provoing an accurate account of the actual cause of behavior (different cultures, sociology, different possible causes - i.e. actually proving it's bio-psy-evolutionary roots that drive such -detailed behaviors- & not local cultures). I could understand wider impulses as relatively probable & testable, but "sacrifice themselves for three brothers but not one", that is one huge kind of a detalied leap. Since when by the way observation is enough? You need to determine the actual cause from all the other possible ones.
I find this to be a major obstacle for the success of this enterprise as a science.
Would it help to know you could generate altruism in robots just by putting them in a simulation of evolution?
If I put them in a simulation of group evolution do you think I could make them eat each other's robot babies?
My guess is that simulations of group evolution have already been done with agent based models with simple agents (relative to the both us and the robots they were modeling in the article the grandparent linked). I would guess the answer to your question is yes, and if someone has already done something with these simpler agent based models and made group evolution appear, then I would put a fairly high probability on that 'yes.'
And if no one's done it, that just makes me want to do it...
The eating each other's babies thing is what you get when group selection doesn't appear.
But yes, simulations of primitive agent models in this sort of context has been done to death. Even before they did experiments with actual living creatures!
I've done this kind of experiment myself - more or less as play or tinkering with my research tools. And not so much baby eating as replication suppression via within-group sabotage. (My Masters work was in nature inspired collective intelligence. So not trying to be simulation of reality but relevant in the opposite direction.)
What I found curious (or amusing) was that they were doing it with actual robots. Something about it just seems so cute. :)
Is that right? I may be misremembering, but I thought that the eating babies thing was a result of group selection. Eating babies arose when a group was under group-selection pressure to have a smaller population. The group complied with the pressure by having individuals within the group consume babies within the group. It was just that the individuals ate the babies of other individuals, thereby acting in accord with both the group-selection pressure and with an individual-selection pressure.
Ahh, that's right.
I was disappointed when I read the article because it said they were doing it with models of the robots in a simulation. Real robots would have been infinitely cooler (and probably too impractical).
They checked their simulation occasionally by using real robots with the same programs ever so often.
That's closer, but unfortunately, that does nothing for my "coolness" sensors. I'm imagining a room filed with robots constantly reproducing and dieing, while interacting in interesting ways. I kind of want a room where this is going on in my house...
Now I'm imagining a residence rigged up with a robot-friendly Habitrail network.
You are right that the "three brothers but not one" bit is detailed. That is why observing such specific numbers would provide strong support for the theory, even if you didn't "determine the actual cause from all the other possible ones". Mere observation is enough. That is the essence of Bayesian epistemology.
In general, suppose that a theory T says that a highly-specific (and hence a priori improbable) observation E is likely, and then E is actually observed. Then that observation makes the probability of T increase by a very large factor. And the probability of T increases more, the more specific E is. In symbols, if p(E) is small, but p(E|T) is large, then the ratio p(T|E) / p(T) is very large. This is a direct corollary of Bayes's theorem: p(T|E) = p(T) * p(E|T) / p(E).
Note that this applies even if you merely observed E, but didn't determine what caused E to happen. (However, if you subsequently did determine what caused E, and that cause differed from what T said it would be, then T would lose whatever favored status it had gained.)