wisnij comments on Epistle to the New York Less Wrongians - Less Wrong

90 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 20 April 2011 09:13PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 21 April 2011 08:20:45PM *  7 points [-]

No, it's quite the same thing.

Hackers typically had little respect for the silly rules that administrators like to impose, so they looked for ways around. For instance, when computers at MIT started to have "security" (that is, restrictions on what users could do), some hackers found clever ways to bypass the security, partly so they could use the computers freely, and partly just for the sake of cleverness (hacking does not need to be useful). However, only some hackers did this—many were occupied with other kinds of cleverness.... [snip several examples]

-- rms, "On Hacking"

Does not the bolded section describe cryonics? Isn't death a "silly rule"? I think your sense of the word "hacking" is too strict.

Comment author: wisnij 21 April 2011 08:40:55PM *  8 points [-]

As another example, the Jargon file has a general definition of 'hacker':

(sense 7) One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

That seems to fit pretty well.

Comment author: wedrifid 22 April 2011 05:13:40AM 10 points [-]

(sense 7) One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

That seems to fit pretty well.

It certainly fits 'hacker' (and myself) well. It doesn't fit people who are indifferent to intellectual challenge but just want to live (and so do cryonics) or just want to win (and so min-max the @#%$ out of life).

Comment author: wnoise 22 April 2011 09:38:46AM *  7 points [-]

"Min-maxer". Now that could be a reasonable label.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 22 April 2011 07:04:58PM *  5 points [-]

"Min-maxer"

Slang meaning's very similar to 'munchkin', but doesn't make people who aren't gamers think of fairy-tale midgets. Sounds good to me. It's also got decision theory connotations as a bonus.

Comment author: steven0461 22 April 2011 07:33:56PM *  3 points [-]

Min-maxing connotes being extremely good at some things by being extremely bad at some others (the "min" part), so it's not quite the right fit.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 22 April 2011 07:53:52PM 5 points [-]

Recognizing things that are not worth putting effort in as well as things that are isn't a bad thing, given that there is an infinite number of skills you could use your time to get good at. Such as shaping gravel into mounds exactly 17 centimeters tall, memorizing telephone directories, or playing chmess competitively.

Comment author: steven0461 22 April 2011 09:39:06PM *  11 points [-]

Okay, but that's not what defines munchkins. Munchkinism, as I see it, is less about getting points in good areas by burning points in bad areas (min-maxing) than it is about getting points in good areas by burning the spirit of the game.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 30 April 2011 08:42:20AM 13 points [-]

I think that willingness to burn the spirit of the game when it comes to things like signing up for cryonics instead of confronting the inevitability of your mortality, drinking extra-light olive oil instead of trying to diet by sheer willpower, or building a recursively self-improving AI instead of trying to solve the world's problems the normal way, is exactly what distinguishes Munchkinism from mere hacking.

Comment author: rhollerith_dot_com 22 April 2011 07:15:27PM 1 point [-]

It's also got decision theory connotations

--game theory connotations, to be specific.

Comment author: ameriver 22 April 2011 07:02:06PM 1 point [-]

Upvoted for this:

...just want to win (and so min-max the @#%$ out of life).

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