I read your entire discussion the TheOtherDave and everyone else before replying. He said pretty much everything I would have said in these replies.
Reading further through the discussion I found this statement by you:
Consider a medieval European society where life is nasty, brutal, and short, not to mention muddy and itchy. But on Sundays you go to the cathedral, a beautiful building with awe-inspiring stained glass windows and open your heart to unconditional love, forgiveness, and promise of eternal happiness. It makes life worth living -- but, sorry, that's not valuable, your beliefs are wrong even though you don't really have a choice about them (remember, medieval Europe).
Remember that here I argued that, while happiness based on false beliefs isn't valuable, it isn't necessarily as bad as other negative things. For instance, I pointed out that if a mad scientist offered me a choice between decades of torture, or pressing a button that would alter my memory to make me hold a false belief, I would pick the button. Similarly, if the act of worship prevents someone's life from being utterly miserable (or from being tortured by the Inquisition), it may be the lesser of two evils.
Consider someone looking at his newborn daughter and feeling great happiness that she is the best, prettiest, most awesome child in the world. Oh, hey, that's technically a mistaken belief, the happiness is not valuable!
I'm pretty sure most people don't literally believe that their child is the best child ever by some objective measure. I think that those are phatic statements, they are meant to express emotions rather than convey factual information. In this case the emotion being expressed is "I really love my daughter."
I think ultimately what ticked me off was the readiness to judge the value of other people's subjective emotional experiences. I am not a fan of such approaches
I certainly understand the tremendous moral hazard that comes with attempting to judge how much other people value things. But I don't think I'm out of line in stating that people generally don't place value on happiness that comes from falsehoods. Pretty much all people hate being lied to.
people generally don't place value on happiness that comes from falsehoods
People generally don't place value on happiness that they believe comes from falsehoods.
I was browsing my RSS feed, as one does, and came across a New York Times article, "A Village With the Numbers, Not the Image, of the Poorest Place", about the Satmar Hasidic Jews of Kiryas Joel (NY).
Their interest lies in their extraordinarily high birthrate & population growth, and their poverty - which are connected. From the article:
From Wikipedia:
Robin Hanson has argued that uploaded/emulated minds will establish a new Malthusian/Darwinian equilibrium in "IF UPLOADS COME FIRST: The crack of a future dawn" - an equilibrium in comparison to which our own economy will look like a delusive dreamtime of impossibly unfit and libertine behavior. The demographic transition will not last forever. But despite our own distaste for countless lives living at near-subsistence rather than our own extreme per-capita wealth (see the Repugnant Conclusion), those many lives will be happy ones (even amidst disaster).
So. Are the inhabitants of Kiryas Joel unhappy?