Swimmer963 comments on Being Wrong about Your Own Subjective Experience - Less Wrong

37 Post author: lukeprog 24 April 2011 08:24PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (187)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: SilasBarta 25 April 2011 08:16:39PM *  1 point [-]

(1) It's relevant to the question of whether modern academic composers (MACs) are learning skills that are entangled with ivory-tower-independent reality, that make distinctions carving reality at its joints, and that simply aren't about impressing an insular clique.

(2) Those examples certainly did not imply (nor were intended to imply) that all of e.g. Mozart's value comes from e.g. EKM. The point is just that someone today can appreciate something like EKM enough to voluntarily listen to it on their own time (when doing so wouldn't enhance their status) or to put it on ringtones, etc.; and that -- this is important -- they do all these things without first having to be indoctrinated by a special priestly order (as someone can appreciate commercial air travel without having to be indoctrinated into aerospace engineering).

(3) I think you're sticking with a misrepresentation of my position that I corrected last time. I don't dispute that Bell is (by the appropriate, unfakeable, non-parochial) metrics better than most other violinists. What I claim is that achieving the skill difference between him and the bottom of the e.g. 95th percentile is way past the point of diminishing returns -- that, while better, it is not so many times better to justify anything close to his proportionally higher income (on musical talent alone).

Therefore, this additional earning power is due to hype: and it is proven, by Bell's very own admission in how no one cares about him when they have something even slightly important to do, or when the Queen hasn't already ponied up $1,000/minute.

What it looks like when someone is hit with the harsh reality of life without your, um, "musical skill" having been "social proof"'ed:

"It was a strange feeling, that people were actually, ah . . ."

The word doesn't come easily.

"... ignoring me." [...]

"At a music hall, I'll get upset if someone coughs or if someone's cellphone goes off. But here, my expectations quickly diminished. I started to appreciate any acknowledgment, even a slight glance up. I was oddly grateful when someone threw in a dollar instead of change." This is from a man whose talents can command $1,000 a minute. [...]

Before he began, Bell hadn't known what to expect. What he does know is that, for some reason, he was nervous.

"It wasn't exactly stage fright, but there were butterflies," he says. "I was stressing a little."

Bell has played, literally, before crowned heads of Europe. Why the anxiety at the Washington Metro?

"When you play for ticket-holders," Bell explains, "you are already validated. I have no sense that I need to be accepted. I'm already accepted. Here, there was this thought: What if they don't like me? What if they resent my presence ..."

There are six moments in the video that Bell finds particularly painful to relive: "The awkward times," he calls them. It's what happens right after each piece ends: nothing. The music stops. The same people who hadn't noticed him playing don't notice that he has finished. No applause, no acknowledgment. So Bell just saws out a small, nervous chord -- the embarrassed musician's equivalent of, "Er, okay, moving right along . . ." -- and begins the next piece.

He lived, in other words, how I live every day -- without people being magnetically attracted to me because of hype. He learned what it's like to be without all that pre-validation.

Comment author: Swimmer963 25 April 2011 08:58:53PM 2 points [-]

Interesting example about Bell. I'm not entirely confident that I could tell the difference between someone with a fairly advanced violin training (for example, my parents' friends' daughter from Toronto, who is now 17 and has been playing violin since about age 5) and someone with elite world-class talent. I can tell the difference in singing, but that's because I have some training, just enough to know that it's ridiculously hard to project loudly enough to fill a whole opera hall and still stay in key, or to sing fast classical passages, or to get exactly the right tone color to make a particular emotional impression... My speculation is that people with no musical training probably can't tell the difference between someone with moderate violin training and someone like Bell playing the same piece. (Maybe Bell could play a much harder piece, while the mediocre player would flounder utterly, and maybe to someone with violin training his tone and expression would be noticeably better, but not to the average Joe hurrying through the Washington Metro.)

Comment author: [deleted] 25 April 2011 09:01:20PM 0 points [-]

(Maybe Bell could play a much harder piece, while the mediocre player would flounder utterly, and maybe to someone with violin training his tone and expression would be noticeably better, but not to the average Joe hurrying through the Washington Metro.)

If I remember correctly, Bell did play some truly challenging pieces. No one noticed, except that one guy.

Comment author: Vaniver 26 April 2011 03:51:22AM 4 points [-]

If I remember correctly, Bell did play some truly challenging pieces. No one noticed, except that one guy.

A few of the people who worked there noticed; of particular interest is the shoe-shine lady, who has the police on speed dial to remove street musicians, but decided to let Bell play because he was pretty good.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 April 2011 06:49:15PM 0 points [-]

I thought he was allowed to stay there because the experimenters made an arrangment with the operators of that area beforehand? (Not sure if people were updating on the fact that a musician was strangely not being removed.)

Comment author: Vaniver 26 April 2011 07:27:00PM 3 points [-]

If that is true, it was not mentioned in the article. The relevant section:

On her speed dial, she has phone numbers for both the mall cops and the Metro cops. The musicians seldom last long.

What about Joshua Bell?

He was too loud, too, Souza says. Then she looks down at her rag, sniffs. She hates to say anything positive about these damned musicians, but: "He was pretty good, that guy. It was the first time I didn't call the police."

Comment author: Swimmer963 25 April 2011 09:08:02PM 2 points [-]

Again, to someone with no training, what is the difference between a moderately and an extremely challenging piece? I'm not sure if I can tell, beyond a certain level; all I can say about pieces is "I could sight-read that", "I could sing that with a lot of work and practice", or "there's no way I can sing that at this level of training". I'm sure that the repertoire of pieces in the third category is huge, and they're not all the same difficulty level, but I'm not sure I could tell the difference if I heard them sung.

Also, a piece that's extremely challenging isn't necessarily catchy. People tend to react emotionally to songs they know, not obscure-but-difficult violin solo pieces.

Comment author: SilasBarta 25 April 2011 09:31:02PM 0 points [-]

Again, to someone with no training, what is the difference between a moderately and an extremely challenging piece? I'm not sure if I can tell,

Sure you can: Did a rich person pay $1,000/minute for a famous violinist to perform it for them? Then it's hard.

The problem is that this classifier didn't come from nature, but is just a local cultural construction.