Swimmer963 comments on Being Wrong about Your Own Subjective Experience - Less Wrong
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There are at least three things wrong with this comment:
(1) It isn't relevant. Even if one were grant to that the reason modern music isn't popular is because modern composers lack some well-defined "hit-producing" skill that past composers possessed, that wasn't the specific skill being discussed. The specific skill being discussed was the ability to vividly imagine the sound of music.
(2) Your categories are wrong. On your (implicit) analysis, most of Mozart's value derives from Eine Kleine Nachtmusik (and maybe a few other "hits"), and most of Beethoven's value derives from his Ninth Symphony. In fact, it actually implies that most of the value of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony itself resides in the "Ode to Joy" setting in the last movement; and furthermore, since I bet you're really talking about a specific passage within that setting (the famous "tune"), it seems to follow that you believe Beethoven is a great composer (if you do) because one particular 2-3 minute passage of his music is commonly played on radio commercials and the like. I reject this out of hand, as would pretty much anybody else with a serious interest in music.
(3) There is a peculiar irony in your position. On the one hand, you take it for granted that the popularity of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is the result of a specific compositional skill (which apparently Mozart wasn't exercising when writing, say, the Jupiter symphony), rather than having to do with random cultural processes. But then, on the other hand, you go around saying that e.g. Joshua Bell's reputation isn't the result of superior violin skills, but instead is due to socio-cultural "hype". Do you not detect any tension here?
(1) It's relevant to the question of whether modern academic composers (MACs) are learning skills that are entangled with ivory-tower-independent reality, that make distinctions carving reality at its joints, and that simply aren't about impressing an insular clique.
(2) Those examples certainly did not imply (nor were intended to imply) that all of e.g. Mozart's value comes from e.g. EKM. The point is just that someone today can appreciate something like EKM enough to voluntarily listen to it on their own time (when doing so wouldn't enhance their status) or to put it on ringtones, etc.; and that -- this is important -- they do all these things without first having to be indoctrinated by a special priestly order (as someone can appreciate commercial air travel without having to be indoctrinated into aerospace engineering).
(3) I think you're sticking with a misrepresentation of my position that I corrected last time. I don't dispute that Bell is (by the appropriate, unfakeable, non-parochial) metrics better than most other violinists. What I claim is that achieving the skill difference between him and the bottom of the e.g. 95th percentile is way past the point of diminishing returns -- that, while better, it is not so many times better to justify anything close to his proportionally higher income (on musical talent alone).
Therefore, this additional earning power is due to hype: and it is proven, by Bell's very own admission in how no one cares about him when they have something even slightly important to do, or when the Queen hasn't already ponied up $1,000/minute.
What it looks like when someone is hit with the harsh reality of life without your, um, "musical skill" having been "social proof"'ed:
He lived, in other words, how I live every day -- without people being magnetically attracted to me because of hype. He learned what it's like to be without all that pre-validation.
Interesting example about Bell. I'm not entirely confident that I could tell the difference between someone with a fairly advanced violin training (for example, my parents' friends' daughter from Toronto, who is now 17 and has been playing violin since about age 5) and someone with elite world-class talent. I can tell the difference in singing, but that's because I have some training, just enough to know that it's ridiculously hard to project loudly enough to fill a whole opera hall and still stay in key, or to sing fast classical passages, or to get exactly the right tone color to make a particular emotional impression... My speculation is that people with no musical training probably can't tell the difference between someone with moderate violin training and someone like Bell playing the same piece. (Maybe Bell could play a much harder piece, while the mediocre player would flounder utterly, and maybe to someone with violin training his tone and expression would be noticeably better, but not to the average Joe hurrying through the Washington Metro.)
If I remember correctly, Bell did play some truly challenging pieces. No one noticed, except that one guy.
A few of the people who worked there noticed; of particular interest is the shoe-shine lady, who has the police on speed dial to remove street musicians, but decided to let Bell play because he was pretty good.
I thought he was allowed to stay there because the experimenters made an arrangment with the operators of that area beforehand? (Not sure if people were updating on the fact that a musician was strangely not being removed.)
If that is true, it was not mentioned in the article. The relevant section:
Again, to someone with no training, what is the difference between a moderately and an extremely challenging piece? I'm not sure if I can tell, beyond a certain level; all I can say about pieces is "I could sight-read that", "I could sing that with a lot of work and practice", or "there's no way I can sing that at this level of training". I'm sure that the repertoire of pieces in the third category is huge, and they're not all the same difficulty level, but I'm not sure I could tell the difference if I heard them sung.
Also, a piece that's extremely challenging isn't necessarily catchy. People tend to react emotionally to songs they know, not obscure-but-difficult violin solo pieces.
Sure you can: Did a rich person pay $1,000/minute for a famous violinist to perform it for them? Then it's hard.
The problem is that this classifier didn't come from nature, but is just a local cultural construction.