Vaniver comments on Being Wrong about Your Own Subjective Experience - Less Wrong

37 Post author: lukeprog 24 April 2011 08:24PM

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Comment author: SilasBarta 25 April 2011 08:16:39PM *  1 point [-]

(1) It's relevant to the question of whether modern academic composers (MACs) are learning skills that are entangled with ivory-tower-independent reality, that make distinctions carving reality at its joints, and that simply aren't about impressing an insular clique.

(2) Those examples certainly did not imply (nor were intended to imply) that all of e.g. Mozart's value comes from e.g. EKM. The point is just that someone today can appreciate something like EKM enough to voluntarily listen to it on their own time (when doing so wouldn't enhance their status) or to put it on ringtones, etc.; and that -- this is important -- they do all these things without first having to be indoctrinated by a special priestly order (as someone can appreciate commercial air travel without having to be indoctrinated into aerospace engineering).

(3) I think you're sticking with a misrepresentation of my position that I corrected last time. I don't dispute that Bell is (by the appropriate, unfakeable, non-parochial) metrics better than most other violinists. What I claim is that achieving the skill difference between him and the bottom of the e.g. 95th percentile is way past the point of diminishing returns -- that, while better, it is not so many times better to justify anything close to his proportionally higher income (on musical talent alone).

Therefore, this additional earning power is due to hype: and it is proven, by Bell's very own admission in how no one cares about him when they have something even slightly important to do, or when the Queen hasn't already ponied up $1,000/minute.

What it looks like when someone is hit with the harsh reality of life without your, um, "musical skill" having been "social proof"'ed:

"It was a strange feeling, that people were actually, ah . . ."

The word doesn't come easily.

"... ignoring me." [...]

"At a music hall, I'll get upset if someone coughs or if someone's cellphone goes off. But here, my expectations quickly diminished. I started to appreciate any acknowledgment, even a slight glance up. I was oddly grateful when someone threw in a dollar instead of change." This is from a man whose talents can command $1,000 a minute. [...]

Before he began, Bell hadn't known what to expect. What he does know is that, for some reason, he was nervous.

"It wasn't exactly stage fright, but there were butterflies," he says. "I was stressing a little."

Bell has played, literally, before crowned heads of Europe. Why the anxiety at the Washington Metro?

"When you play for ticket-holders," Bell explains, "you are already validated. I have no sense that I need to be accepted. I'm already accepted. Here, there was this thought: What if they don't like me? What if they resent my presence ..."

There are six moments in the video that Bell finds particularly painful to relive: "The awkward times," he calls them. It's what happens right after each piece ends: nothing. The music stops. The same people who hadn't noticed him playing don't notice that he has finished. No applause, no acknowledgment. So Bell just saws out a small, nervous chord -- the embarrassed musician's equivalent of, "Er, okay, moving right along . . ." -- and begins the next piece.

He lived, in other words, how I live every day -- without people being magnetically attracted to me because of hype. He learned what it's like to be without all that pre-validation.

Comment author: Vaniver 26 April 2011 04:03:50AM 3 points [-]

Side comment: I don't like that the article repeats the myth that Stradivarius has not been excelled. He has; people have reverse engineered several of his tricks (and developed new ones) such that new violins have been produced that are judged equal or superior to his violins in blind tests. (His violins have also not fared especially well in blind tests historically, suggesting quality differentials may be small.)

Of course, as mentioned elsewhere, even if modern violins are superior to Strads it will be almost impossible to erase the history and cultural weight of those Strads. That's one of the reasons I think it silly to compare MACs to the historical greats; the historical greats have history behind them. Of course they're more popular.

My position differs from komponisto's, though, in that I think that if a MAC produces music laymen don't enjoy, they're going about music the wrong way. (That is, it seems to me that if the reason humans like music is it's a superstimulus / augments emotions, those are the right metrics to judge music by, and other metrics shouldn't call themselves measuring musical quality, but something else.) But that's a separate discussion we probably don't need to have now.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 April 2011 06:52:39PM *  -1 points [-]

My position differs from komponisto's, though, in that I think that if a MAC produces music laymen don't enjoy, they're going about music the wrong way. (That is, it seems to me that if the reason humans like music is it's a superstimulus / augments emotions, those are the right metrics to judge music by, and other metrics shouldn't call themselves measuring musical quality, but something else.) But that's a separate discussion we probably don't need to have now.

Why not? That opinion komponisto has that differs from yours is the basis for the rest of his arguments on his topic -- so it's pretty damning that he's constantly searching for arguments he can deploy for why MACs can't write popular music. "Because they don't want to escape the poverty that music theory that grad students normally live in?" Sure...

Comment author: Vaniver 26 April 2011 07:45:54PM 4 points [-]

Why not? That opinion komponisto has that differs from yours is the basis for the rest of his arguments on his topic -- so it's pretty damning that he's constantly searching for arguments he can deploy for why MACs can't write popular music.

I don't think this is the right way to look at the issue.

komponisto appears to differ from both of us on how one should judge musical quality. But I agree with him that popular success is not a good metric to use, and am not surprised that he is repeatedly searching for counterarguments to your point if you won't abandon it.

His argument, as I understand it, is that MACs don't write popular music because they aren't trying to write popular music; they're trying to write music according to their highly specialized standards. My argument is that even if they were trying to write popular music, they would find it very difficult for reasons independent of their quality as composers. It's telling that of the best-known artists playing classical instruments, the ones that aren't playing historical greats are playing Metallica. Composers are in a rather saturated field (which explains why they would retreat into specialized standards), and a large component of popularity is popularization rather than raw talent (which cements that specialization as a reinforcer of internal popularity and diminisher of external popularity).

Comment author: Alicorn 26 April 2011 07:50:15PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for the link the the song, it's nifty :)

Comment author: Vaniver 26 April 2011 08:01:37PM 0 points [-]

You're welcome! It's my favorite thing by them at the moment.