Manfred comments on Meditation, insight, and rationality. (Part 2 of 3) - Less Wrong

25 Post author: DavidM 04 May 2011 10:38PM

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Comment author: Manfred 06 May 2011 03:06:54AM 0 points [-]

What is your probability estimate that a LW reader would have a similar experience to yours, just from reading what I wrote or something like it, in a non-contrived situation?

Erm, it's not that I just read the sentence "feel X" and feel it. It's that I looked away from the computer and spent half a minute putting myself into a quite contrived situation. The best category would probably be self-hypnosis - and most people are hypnotizable. I have an advantage of having this skill in a sort of rudimentary way because my dad did stuff like this for a while (he was a social worker). I'm not sure how effectively I could communicate it to other people, but looking at self-hypnosis literature would probably give a good idea of the upper bound.

why do you think so?

Because peer pressure, the urge to conform, seems like a direct product of unnecessary attachment to the world, which seems like something meditation with a Buddhist heritage is focused on reducing.

Comment author: DavidM 06 May 2011 03:38:13AM 0 points [-]

Erm, it's not that I just read the sentence "feel X" and feel it. It's that I looked away from >the computer and spent half a minute putting myself into a quite contrived situation. The best category would probably be self-hypnosis - and most people are hypnotizable. I have an advantage of having this skill in a sort of rudimentary way because my dad did stuff like this for a while (he was a social worker). I'm not sure how effectively I could communicate it to other people, but looking at self-hypnosis literature would probably give a good idea of the upper bound.

OK. I think I misunderstood you here and also at some points in the past (including your original response).

However, in relation to my claims about enlightenment and bias, you said:

Because peer pressure, the urge to conform, seems like a direct product of unnecessary attachment to the world, which seems like something meditation with a Buddhist heritage is focused on reducing.

I described what this style of meditation is focused on achieving rather explicitly. "Attachment to the world" is not anything I wrote, but is something you are imputing to me because it's associated with Buddhism. I don't think you've read what I've written very thoroughly, and for some reason are trying to respond to it anyway. If you want to continue this discussion, I request that you re-read my post first, and then re-state any comments or criticism.

Comment author: Manfred 06 May 2011 05:15:27AM 0 points [-]

"Attachment to the world" is not anything I wrote

See here. I read not only this post, but the last one too!

Also, I read the following:

(Will Swain)Didn't you say that enlightenment would fix problems like attachment? Couldn't that kind of result produce an empirical test?

(DavidM)"Attachment" has a specific nonstandard meaning in Buddhist-associated thinking, and I realized after writing Part 1 that it would have been better to omit the word altogether rather than try to explain it. So I would prefer to discuss the testable aspects of enlightenment without talking about attachment.

So I'll not make any more claims about attachment. Would you apply similar "don't test" restrictions to "craving" and "hatred," which you also mentioned in part 1?

Comment author: DavidM 06 May 2011 05:32:27AM 0 points [-]

I used the word "attachment" without explaining it. "Attachment to the world" I've never written, though phrases like that appear constantly in Buddhist literature and are often taught as central to it (as you seem well aware of, given your use of the phrase "Buddhist heritage" in relation to this discussion).

About these terms, I seem to be having enough trouble getting across the basics, so I think triage is in order.