Toggle comments on Conceptual Analysis and Moral Theory - Less Wrong

60 Post author: lukeprog 16 May 2011 06:28AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (456)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Toggle 18 November 2014 06:44:55PM 8 points [-]

Most of the content in the sequences isn't new as such, but it did draw from many different sources, most of which were largely confined to academia. In synthesis, the product is pretty original. To the best of my knowledge, the LessWrong perspective/community has antecedents but not an obvious historical counterpart.

In that light, I'd expect the catalyzing agent for such a perspective to be the least effective such agent that could successfully accomplish the task. (Or: to be randomly selected from the space of all possible effective agents, which is quite similar in practice.) We are the tool-users not because hominids are optimized for tool use, but because we were the first ones to do so with enough skill to experience a takeoff of civilization. So it's pretty reasonable to expect the sequences to be a little wibbly.

To continue your religious metaphor, Paul wrote in atrocious Greek, had confusingly strong opinions about manbeds, and made it in to scripture because he was instrumental in building the early church communities. Augustine persuasively developed a coherent metaphysic for the religion that reconciled it with the mainstream Neoplatonism of the day, helping to clear the way for a transition from persecuted minority to dominant memeplex, but is considered a 'doctor of the church' rather than an author of scripture because he was operating within and refining a more established culture.

The sequences were demonstrably effective in crystallizing a community, but are probably a lot less effective in communicating outside that community. TAG's objections may be especially relevant if LessWrong is to transition from a 'creche' online environment and engage in dialogue with cultural power brokers- a goal of the MIRI branch at a minimum.

Comment author: Vaniver 18 November 2014 07:12:09PM 0 points [-]

I wish I had more than one upvote to give this comment; entirely agreed.

Comment author: Toggle 18 November 2014 08:38:13PM 1 point [-]

Thank you! The compliment works just as well.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 18 November 2014 06:56:37PM *  -1 points [-]

..and its not too iimportant what the community is crystallized around? Believing in things you can't justify or explain is something that an atheist community can safely borrow from religion?

Comment author: Vaniver 18 November 2014 07:29:01PM 3 points [-]

and its not too iimportant what the community is crystallized around?

Of course it's important. What gives you another impression?

Believing in things you can't justify or explain is something that an atheist community can safely borrow from religion?

It's not clear to me where you're getting this. To be clear, I think that the LW perspective has different definitions of "believe," "justify," and "explain" from traditional philosophy, but I don't think that it gets its versions from religion. I also think that atheism is a consequence of LW's epistemology, not a foundation of it. (As a side note, the parts of religion that don't collapse when brought into a robust epistemology are solid enough to build on, and there's little to be gained by turning your nose up at their source.)

In this particular conversation, the religion analogy is used primarily in a social and historical sense. People believe things; people communicate and coordinate on beliefs. How has that communication and coordination happened in the past, and what can we learn from that?

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 18 November 2014 08:13:18PM -1 points [-]

We can learn that "all for the cause, whatever it is" is a failure of rationality.

To be clear, I think that the LW perspective has different definitions of "believe," "justify," and "explain" from traditional philosophy,

I think the LW perspective has the same definitions...but possibly different theories from the various theories of traditional philosophy. (It also looks like LW has a different definition if "definition", which really confuses things)

the parts of religion that don't collapse when brought into a robust epistemology

Religious epistemology - dogmatism+vagueness - is just the problem

Comment author: Vaniver 19 November 2014 02:55:09PM 2 points [-]

We can learn that "all for the cause, whatever it is" is a failure of rationality.

Entirely agreed.

Religious epistemology - dogmatism+vagueness - is just the problem

I don't see the dogmatism you're noticing--yes, Eliezer has strong opinions on issues I don't think he should have strong opinions on, but those strong opinions are only weakly transmitted to others and you'll find robust disagreement. Similarly, the vagueness I've noticed tends to be necessary vagueness, in the sense of "X is an open problem, but here's my best guess at how X will be solved. You'll notice that it's fuzzy here, there, and there, which is why I think the problem is still open."