Jonathan_Graehl comments on Building rationalist communities: lessons from the Latter-day Saints - Less Wrong

15 Post author: calcsam 09 May 2011 03:14PM

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Comment author: Costanza 09 May 2011 08:02:53PM *  12 points [-]

Agreed.

A lot of organizational models "succeed" in the sense that they grow and spread, but they do so at a terrible cost to their rank and file members. It's like the memetic equivalent of a terrible plague. Just because it grows and spreads doesn't mean you want to catch it. LDS is right up there with Scientolology and criminal street gangs. You demonstrate your commitment to the group by metaphorically cutting off your own feet, and then you stay because you can't run away any more.

Doesn't it matter a lot that Mormon doctrine is false from beginning to end? Am I wrong in thinking that it's bad when a cause so obviously wants to be a cult ?

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 10 May 2011 05:54:57AM 5 points [-]

I grew up Mormon (for my first ~12 years). It's not as harmful as Scientology. I have no idea what you mean about cutting your feet off.

Comment author: Costanza 12 May 2011 12:23:46PM 6 points [-]

Here's one take on the experience of being a Mormon missionary:

The true meaning and essence of the mission is to make a young man go through two years of complete and living hell. The worse the experience is, the more the child believes he has sacrificed, therefore solidifying the investment value of a completed mission. When the elder finally returns to the flock what else is there to do but protect the investment? After all, he paid for it with two years of blood, sweat and tears. He purchased the investment with the currency of youth. You're only 20 once. The idea that the best part of your golden youth was squandered knocking on doors hassling people with religious propaganda is unbearable. Return missionaries are all too willing to adopt the company line, close ranks with other returned missionaries and protect the precious investment. At least this was my experience.

Your mileage may vary.

Comment author: MartinB 12 May 2011 12:37:30PM 3 points [-]

Yes. There are way worse fates. It is not living hell to be an annoying advertiser.

I do not know how nice Mormons are to each other. But I would guess the group bonding usually rather pleasant.

Comment author: Costanza 12 May 2011 12:54:58PM 2 points [-]

Tough to tell from the outside. There's a lot of stuff on the internet about the Mormon mission experience, but, unsurprisingly, it's affected by selection bias. Ex mormons can tell some horror stories. Current Mormons still active in the church tend to report much more positive memories, but here's an evaluation of the pluses and minuses of the missionary experience by believing Mormons.

Comment author: wedrifid 12 May 2011 03:26:55PM 1 point [-]

Run of the mill hazing outcome!

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 12 May 2011 05:29:45PM *  1 point [-]

That seems fair. I'm not sure why I didn't think of that interpretation. Two years with the only gains being some emotional experiences and learning to sell (to a specific script) is mostly a waste, like cutting your feet off would be.

My friend stayed Mormon through an objectively successful two year mission. He had no problem leaving the church a few years later. But he's unusually intelligent and principled.

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