pjeby comments on Seeing Red: Dissolving Mary's Room and Qualia - Less Wrong

38 Post author: orthonormal 26 May 2011 05:47PM

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Comment author: pjeby 28 May 2011 04:16:21PM 2 points [-]

It may be more accurate to say that when she sees a red object, that generates a feeling of surprise, because her visual cortex is doing something it has never done before. Not that there was ever any information missing -- but the surprise still happens as a fact about the brain.

We measure information in terms of surprise, so you're kind of contradicting yourself there.

The entire "thought experiment" hinges on getting you to accept a false premise: that "knowledge" is of a single kind. It then encourages you to follow this premise through to the seeming contradiction that Mary shouldn't be able to be surprised. It ignores the critical role of knowledge representation, and is thus a paradox of the form, "If the barber shaves everyone who doesn't shave themselves, does the barber shave him/herself?" The paradox comes from mixing two levels of knowledge, and pretending they're the same, in precisely the same way that Mary's Room does.

Comment author: nshepperd 29 May 2011 01:40:42AM 0 points [-]

I mean surprise in the sense of the feeling, which doesn't have to be justified to be felt. Perhaps a better word is "enlightenment". Seeing red feels like enlightenment because the brain is put into a state it has never been in before, as a result of which Mary gains the ability (through memory) to put her brain into that state at will.

Comment author: wedrifid 28 May 2011 04:33:28PM *  0 points [-]

and is thus a paradox of the form, "If the barber shaves everyone who doesn't shave themselves, does the barber shave him/herself?"

That isn't a paradox. It is a simple logical question with the answer yes.

Comment author: pjeby 28 May 2011 04:47:29PM 2 points [-]

Hm, I guess that should probably be, "if the barber shaves only those who don't shave themselves."

Comment author: Will_Sawin 28 May 2011 05:44:09PM 2 points [-]

"if and only if"-type language has to enter into.

If the barber shaves all and only those who don't save themselves...

Comment author: Dorikka 30 May 2011 06:28:09AM 0 points [-]

don't save themselves...

Cracked me up. I think you might mean "shave" here.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 30 May 2011 04:23:42PM 3 points [-]

Oh no! The barber of Seville is coming! I'll hold him off, you save yourself!

Comment author: Alicorn 30 May 2011 05:23:23PM 0 points [-]

But what if I run into the barber of Fleet Street?!