pjeby comments on Crowley on Religious Experience - Less Wrong

36 Post author: Yvain 26 March 2009 10:59PM

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Comment author: pjeby 27 March 2009 08:50:15PM 13 points [-]

they cannot impart any novel knowledge apart from themselves

It's not knowledge, it's skill at self-control and self-awareness. And like most other skills (riding a bicycle, driving a car, etc.) you can't acquire them by reading about them or simply thinking that you already know how to do them.

One of the most pernicious biases of the human brain -- pernicious because it interferes with self-improvement -- is that your brain believes it can always intuitively predict its own responses to mental and physical actions that it has never actually taken.

This means that, even when a self-improvement book includes a technique that produces some useful, novel result, most people will never actually try it, versus just reading about it and imagining that they know what it would have been like if they'd tried it... and concluding that it wouldn't do anything!

And meditation is absolutely in this category. There's a world of difference between intellectually "knowing" how much dreck your brain is putting out, and the practical experience of sitting there and listening to it, day after day, and realizing just how utterly stupid you are... it's also an active discouragement from listening to your own crap the rest of the day, too.

We could also get into health benefits, improved concentration, and all that sort of thing. From personal experience back when I was regularly attending the Dallas Zen center, it also makes you calmer, friendlier, and more confident, although alas those effects are not permanent if you stop. It's sort of more like exercise that way, I think.

Anyway, enlightenment is hardly a requirement for doing meditation, and Zen masters routinely discourage students from paying attention to any exotic or "spiritual" experiences they may have, precisely because the practice is an exercise, not merely a way of getting to some particular destination.

Comment author: Vladimir_Gritsenko 28 March 2009 11:46:31AM 3 points [-]

One of the most pernicious biases of the human brain... is that your brain believes it can always intuitively predict its own responses to mental and physical actions that it has never actually taken.

Agreed, and relevance noted.

So, you say that meditation has practical benefits - helps problem solving and socializing. Is there research which supports these claims? How does meditation compare to other activities?

Comment author: pjeby 28 March 2009 02:12:42PM 3 points [-]

Is there research which supports these claims?

Here's some that I know of, from my bookmarks. I imagine a Google search would find you plenty more:

Comment author: Vladimir_Gritsenko 28 March 2009 06:15:45PM 4 points [-]

Thanks, that's a good starting point. I do feel guilty now for not applying any google-fu, and belatedly offer the Wikipedia article, which mentions other beneficial studies, but also mentions adverse effects and one unfavorable meta-analysis. Whatever the case may be, it opens the way for more constructive analysis, including a cost-benefit one to determine if we, in fact, should meditate, and to what degree. (I'd like to mention here that Erdős took amphetamines. It's a cheat, but then so is meditation. I wonder what other cheats exist? We might be missing on something big here.)

Anyway, it was Yvain who reminded us the power of positivist thinking, and I think that we should proceed along those lines. Even if we agree that Crowley has identified an infrequent experience that is awesome, it does not mean we should automatically care. We need to understand exactly what this awesome is, what it means in general and what applications it has for us. It appears to me that this post and subsequent discussion got it somewhat backwards!

Comment author: ciphergoth 28 March 2009 06:49:39PM 3 points [-]

I wonder what other cheats exist? We might be missing on something big here.

Modafinil?