Manfred comments on Pluralistic Moral Reductionism - Less Wrong

33 Post author: lukeprog 01 June 2011 12:59AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (316)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Peterdjones 01 June 2011 05:55:31PM *  1 point [-]

In a sense, pluralistic moral reductionism can be considered a robust form of moral 'realism', in the same way that pluralistic sound reductionism is a robust form of sound realism. "Yes, there really is sound, and we can locate it in reality — either as vibrations or as mental auditory experiences

In a sense it can't be considered robust realism. The two meanings of "sound" don't lead to any confusion in practice: we know that powerful hi fis produce a lot of sound1 and we know that deaf people standing in front of the won't hear any sound2.

However, morality is tied to the actions of oneself and others. There's no coherent situation in which gay marriage can be both right and wrong, because there is no coherent way it can be both allowed and forbidden. In practice we tend to just average out preferences when it comes to defining law and allocating resources...but the preferences in question might as well be subjective. It is difficult to see what is being bought by the objectivity in pluralistic objective reductionism.

But in another sense, pluralistic moral reductionism is 'anti-realist'. It suggests that there is no One True Theory of Morality. (We use moral terms in a variety of ways, and some of those ways refer to different sets of natural facts.)

Of course normative pluralism doesn't follow from descriptive pluralism. Some uses of moral terms be wrong. You said Craigs theological morality was wrong. If reducing and naturalising morality doesn't allow you to say anybody is right or wrong, what is the point?

And as a reductionist approach to morality, it might also leave no room for moral theories which say there are universally binding moral rules for which the universe (e.g. via a God) will hold us accountable.

Or, eg,, not via God. Unless there are: if you can say 1 theory is wrong, you can say N-1 are wrong and arrive at one not-wrong theory by elimination. So I don't see how your approach supports pluralism as a fixed principle: it can only depend on how things pan out in practice.

Comment author: Manfred 01 June 2011 10:09:01PM *  1 point [-]

There's no coherent situation in which gay marriage can be both right and wrong

There's also no coherent situation in which something can be sound and not sound.

You said Craigs theological morality was wrong.

Even worse than wrong (wrong here meaning wrong(Manfred) )! It follows from a probably false premise, and so is undefined when phrased as coming from God.

If reducing and naturalising morality doesn't allow you to say anybody is right or wrong, what is the point?

Ending the arguments over this stuff.

Comment author: Peterdjones 01 June 2011 10:44:02PM 0 points [-]

There's also no coherent situation in which something can be sound and not sound.

Sure there is: unheard compression waves.

Ending the arguments over this stuff.

Should we end all arguments by giving up on any fact of the matter?

Comment author: Manfred 01 June 2011 11:48:33PM 1 point [-]

There's also no coherent situation in which something can be sound and not sound.

Sure there is (uses multiple definitions)

So then let's do the same for the gay marriage example.

Should we end all arguments by giving up on any fact of the matter?

We should end all arguments about subjects where there is no fact of the matter.

Comment author: Peterdjones 02 June 2011 12:07:01AM 0 points [-]

So then let's do the same for the gay marriage example.

I don't think you can. The different meanings of "sound" are disambiguated by context

We should end all arguments about subjects where there is no fact of the matter.

OK. Then we just need to have the argument about whether there is a fact of the matter. Oh,,,we are.

Comment author: Manfred 02 June 2011 12:17:56AM 0 points [-]

Not anymore!

Comment author: gjm 01 June 2011 11:54:35PM 1 point [-]

If "unheard compression waves" counts as an instance in which something is "sound and not sound", then gay marriage can equally be "right and wrong" if, e.g., it is prohibited by the Bible but isn't any obstacle to maximizing net preference satisfaction.

No doubt you want to protest: No, but there really is a single absolute truth about what's right and what's wrong, whereas there really isn't a single absolute truth about what counts as "sound". Maybe so, but that's a highly disputable matter and you might do well to offer some actual arguments.