Unnamed comments on Rationality Quotes: June 2011 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: Oscar_Cunningham 01 June 2011 08:17AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (470)

You are viewing a single comment's thread.

Comment author: Unnamed 01 June 2011 07:11:09PM 27 points [-]

Violence is not a way of getting where you want to go, only more quickly. Its existence changes your destination. If you use it, you had better be prepared to find yourself in the kind of place it takes you to.

-hilzoy

Comment author: Dorikka 02 June 2011 04:04:49AM 3 points [-]

This is confusing. Does your use of violence change your intended destination, or does it just exert certain optimization pressures on future world-states, as do all of your other actions?

Comment author: brazzy 03 June 2011 09:34:26AM 5 points [-]

Read the (long) linked-to article from which the quote stems. Basically the point is that using violence to achieve a goal teaches the people involved that violence is an effective, legitimate way to achieve goals - and at some later point they will invariably have conflicting goals.

Comment author: wedrifid 03 June 2011 10:47:46AM 5 points [-]

See also: Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 02 June 2011 06:58:49PM 2 points [-]

I'm not sure there's a useful distinction between those two options. Your future selves are part of the future world-states that it's exerting pressure on, and not exempt from that pressure.

Comment author: wedrifid 01 June 2011 11:01:42PM *  13 points [-]

If you use it, you had better be prepared to find yourself in the kind of place it takes you to.

Including such destinations as "Not being the unwilling sex toy of the big bald guy while in prison". Although if you also don't use 'fraud' you may find yourself not in jail in the first place - but it's not always so simple. It also leads you to the destination "still having your food, possessions, dignity and social status in your schoolyard despite having no control of whether you wish to be subject to that environment".

Comment author: Unnamed 02 June 2011 04:15:37AM 22 points [-]

I didn't read the quote as a blanket opposition to violence. It's a warning about one thing to consider before you choose violence.

I also didn't read the quote as only being about violence. It also makes a more general point about means and ends. When you're considering an action in pursuit of a goal, you should consider the action in its own right and try to predict where it is likely to lead. Don't settle on an action just because it seems to fit with the goal. This is especially relevant when you consider using violence, coercion, manipulation, or dishonesty for a noble purpose, but it also applies more generally.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 02 June 2011 03:02:19AM 7 points [-]

Of course, sometimes one is prepared to find yourself in the kind of place it takes you to. The quote seems to already acknowledge this possibility.

Comment author: wedrifid 02 June 2011 05:10:07AM 3 points [-]

The quote seems to already acknowledge this possibility.

It does, hence allowing for me to phrase the counterpoint within the quote's own framework.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 01 June 2011 09:53:44PM 1 point [-]
Comment author: fubarobfusco 02 June 2011 02:15:58AM 7 points [-]

That lesson is pretty frequently homeschooled, sad to say.