Part of the Sequence: The Science of Winning at Life. Co-authored with Minda Myers and Hugh Ristik. Also see: Polyhacking.

When things fell apart between me (Luke) and my first girlfriend, I decided that kind of relationship wasn't ideal for me.

I didn't like the jealous feelings that had arisen within me. I didn't like the desperate, codependent 'madness' that popular love songs celebrate. I had moral objections to the idea of owning somebody else's sexuality, and to the idea of somebody else owning mine. Some of my culture's scripts for what a man-woman relationship should look like didn't fit my own goals very well.

I needed to design romantic relationships that made sense (decision-theoretically) for me, rather than simply falling into whatever relationship model my culture happened to offer. (The ladies of Sex and the City weren't too good with decision theory, but they certainly invested time figuring out which relationship styles worked for them.) For a while, this new approach led me into a series of short-lived flings. After that, I chose 4 months of contented celibacy. After that, polyamory. After that...

Anyway, the results have been wonderful. Rationality and decision theory work for relationships, too!

We humans compartmentalize by default. Brains don't automatically enforce belief propagation, and aren't configured to do so. Cached thoughts and cached selves can remain even after one has applied the lessons of the core sequences to particular parts of one's life. That's why it helps to explicitly examine what happens when you apply rationality to new areas of your life  from disease to goodness to morality. Today, we apply rationality to relationships.

 

Relationships Styles

When Minda had her first relationship with a woman, she found that the cultural scripts for heterosexual relationships didn't work for a homosexual relationship style. For example, in heterosexual dating (in the USA) the man is expected to ask for the date, plan the date, and escalate sexual interaction. A woman expects that she will be pursued and not have to approach men, that on a date she should be passive and follow the man's lead, and that she shouldn't initiate sex herself.

In the queer community, Minda quickly found that if she passively waited for a woman to hit on her, she'd be waiting all night! When she met her first girlfriend, Minda had to ask for the date. Minda writes:

On dates, I didn't know if I should pay for the date or hold the door or what I was supposed to do! Each interaction required thought and negotiation that hadn't been necessary before. And this was really kind of neat. We had the opportunity to create a relationship that worked for us and represented us as unique and individual human beings. And when it came to sexual interactions, I found it easy to ask for and engage in exactly what I wanted. And I have since brought these practices into my relationships with men. 

But you don't need to have an 'alternative' relationship in order to decide you want to set aside some cultural scripts and design a relationship style that works for you. You can choose relationship styles that work for you now.

With regard to which type(s) of romantic partner(s) you want, there are many possibilities.

No partners:

  • Asexuality. Asexuals don't experience sexual attraction. They comprise perhaps 1% of the population,1 and include notables like Paul Erdos, Morrissey, and Janeane Garofalo. There is a network (AVEN) for asexuality awareness and acceptance.
  • Celibacy. Celibates feel sexual attraction, but abstain from sex. Some choose to abstain for medical, financial, psychological, or philosophical reasons. Others choose celibacy so they have more time to achieve other goals, as I (Luke) did for a time. Others are involuntarily celibate; perhaps they can't find or attract suitable mates. This problem can often be solved by learning and practicing social skills.

One partner:

  • Monogamy. Having one sexual partner at a time is a standard cultural script, and may be over-used due to the status quo bias. Long-term monogamy should not be done on the pretense that attraction and arousal for one's partner won't fade. It will.2 Still, there may be many people for whom monogamy is optimal. 

Many partners:

  • Singlehood. Singlehood can be a good way to get to know yourself and experience a variety of short-term partners. About 78% of college students have had at least one 'one-night stand', and most such encounters were preceded by alcohol or drug use.3 Indeed, many young people today no longer go on 'dates' to get to know a potential partner. Instead, they meet each other at a social event, 'hook up', and then go on dates (if the hookup went well).4
  • Friendship 'with benefits'. Friends are often people you already enjoy and respect, and thus may also make excellent sexual partners. According to one study, 60% of undergraduates have been a 'friend with benefits' for someone at one time.5
  • Polyamory.6 In a polyamorous relationship, partners are clear about their freedom to pursue multiple partners. Couples communicate their boundaries and make agreements about what is and isn't allowed. Polyamory often requires partners to de-program jealousy. In my experience, polyamory is much more common in the rationality community than in the general population.

Hugh points out that your limbic system may not agree (at least initially) with your cognitive choice of a relationship style. Some women say they want a long-term relationship but date 'bad boys' who are unlikely to become long-term mates. Someone may think they want polyamorous relationships but find it impossible to leave jealousy behind.7

 

The Science of Attraction

A key skillset required for having the relationships you want is that of building and maintaining attraction in potential mates.

Guys seeking girls may wonder: Why do girls say they want "nice guys" but date only "jerks"? Girls seeking rationalist guys are at an advantage because the gender ratio lies in their favor, but they still might wonder: What can I do to attract the best mates? Those seeking same-sex partners may wonder how attraction can differ from heterosexual norms.

How do you build and maintain attraction in others? A lot can be learned by trying different things and seeing what works. This is often better than polling people, because people's verbal reports about what attracts them don't always match their actual behavior.8

To get you started, the virtues of scholarship and empiricism will serve you well. Social psychology has a wealth of knowledge to offer on successful relationships.9 For example, here are some things that, according to the latest research, will tend to make people more attracted to you:

  • Proximity and familiarity. Study after study shows that we tend to like those who live near us, partly due to availability,10 and partly because repeated exposure to almost anything increases liking.11 A Taiwanese man once demonstrated the power of proximity and repeated exposure when he wrote over 700 letters to his girlfriend, urging her to marry him. She married the mail carrier.12
  • Similarity. We tend to like people who are similar to us.13 We like people with faces similar to our own.14 We are even more likely to marry someone with a similar-sounding name.15 Similarity makes attraction endure longer.16 Also, similar people are more likely to react to events the same way, thus reducing the odds of conflict.17
  • Physical attractiveness. Both men and women prefer good-looking mates.18 Partly, this is because the halo effect: we automatically assume that more attractive people are also healthier, happier, more sensitive, more successful, and more socially skilled (but not necessarily more honest or compassionate).19 Some of these assumptions are correct: Attractive and well-dressed people are more likely to impress employers and succeed occupationally.20 But isn't beauty relative? Some standards of beauty vary from culture to culture, but many are universal.21 Men generally prefer women who exhibit signs of youth and fertility.22 Women generally prefer men who (1) display possession of abundant resources,23 (2) display high social status,24 (3) exhibit a 'manly' face (large jaw, thick eyebrows, visible beard stubble)25 and physique,26 and (4) are tall.27 Both genders generally prefer (1) agreeableness, conscientiousness, and extraversion,28 (2) 'average' and symmetrical faces with features that are neither unusually small or large,29 (2) large smiles,30 (3) pupil dilation,31 and some other things (more on this later).
  • Liking others. Liking someone makes them more attracted to you.32
  • Arousing others. Whether aroused by fright, exercise, stand-up comedy, or erotica, we are more likely to be attracted to an attractive person when we are generally aroused than when we are not generally aroused.33 As David Myers writes, "Adrenaline makes the heart grow fonder."34 This may explain why rollercoasters and horror movies are such a popular date night choice.

But this barely scratches the surface of attraction science. In a later post, we'll examine how attraction works in more detail, and draw up a science-supported game plan for building attraction in others.

 

Attractiveness: Mean and Variance

Remember that increasing your average attractiveness (by appealing to more people) may not be an optimal strategy.

Marketers know that it's often better to sacrifice broad appeal in order for a product to have very strong appeal to a niche market. The Appunto doesn't appeal to most men, but it appeals strongly enough to some men that they are willing to pay the outrageous $200 price for it.

Similarly, you may have the best success in dating if you appeal very strongly to some people, even if this makes you less appealing to most people  that is, if you adopt a niche marketing strategy in the dating world.35

As long as you can find those few people who find you very attractive, it won't matter (for dating) that most people aren't attracted to you. And because one can switch between niche appeal and broad appeal using fashion and behavior, you can simply use clothing and behavior with mainstream appeal during the day (to have general appeal in professional environments) and use alternative clothing and behavior when you're socializing (to have strong appeal to a small subset of people whom you've sought out).

To visualize this point, consider two attraction strategies. Both strategies employ phenomena that are (almost) universally attractive, but the blue strategy aims to maximize the frequency of somewhat positive responses while the red strategy aims to maximize the frequency of highly positive responses. The red strategy (e.g. using mainstream fashion) increases one's mean attractiveness, while the blue strategy (e.g. using alternative fashion) increases one's attractiveness variance. Hugh Ristik offers the following chart:

This goth guy and I (Luke) can illustrate this phenomenon. I aim for mainstream appeal; he wears goth clothing when socializing. My mainstream look turns off almost no one, and is attractive to most women, but doesn't get that many strong reactions right away unless I employ other high-variance strategies.36 In contrast, I would bet the goth guy's alternative look turns off many people and is less attractive to most women than my look is, but has a higher frequency of extremely positive reactions in women.

In one's professional life, it may be better to have broad appeal. But in dating, the goal is to find people who find you extremely attractive. The goth guy sacrifices his mean attractiveness to increase his attractiveness variance (and thus the frequency of very positive responses), and this works well for him in the dating scene.

High-variance strategies like this are a good way to filter for people who are strongly attracted to you, and thus avoid wasting your time with potential mates who only feel lukewarm toward you.

 

Up next

In future posts we'll develop an action plan for using the science of attraction to create successful romantic relationships. We'll also explain how rationality helps with relationship maintenance37 and relationship satisfaction.

 

Previous post: The Power of Reinforcement

 

 

Notes

1 Bogaert (2004).

2 About half of romantic relationships of all types end within a few years (Sprecher 1994; Kirkpatrick & Davis 1994; Hill et al 1976), and even relationships that last exhibit diminishing attraction and arousal (Aron et al. 2006; Kurdek 2005; Miller et al. 2007). Note that even if attraction and arousal fades, romantic love can exist in long-term closed monogamy and it is associated with relationship satisfaction (Acevedo & Aron, 2009).

3 Paul et al. (2000); Grello et al. (2006).

4 Bogle (2008).

5 Bisson & Levine (2009).

6 Two introductory books on the theory and practice of polyamory are: Easton & Hardy (2009) and Taormino (2008).

7 See work on 'conditional mating strategies' aka 'strategic pluralism' (Gangestad & Simpson, 2000).

8 Sprecher & Felmlee (2008); Eastwick & Finkel (2008). Likewise, there is a difference between what people publicly report as being the cause of a breakup, what they actually think caused a breakup, and what actually caused a breakup (Powell & Fine, 2009). Also see Inferring Our Desires.

9 For overviews of this research, see: Bradbury & Karney (2010); Miller & Perlman (2008); Vangelisti & Perlman (2006); Sprecher et al. (2008); Weiten et al. (2011), chs. 8-12. For a history of personal relationships research, see Perlman & Duck (2006).

10 Goodfriend (2009).

11 This is called the mere exposure effect. See Le (2009); Moreland & Zajonc (1982); Nuttin (1987); Zajonc (1968, 2001); Moreland & Beach (1992). The limits of this effect are explored in Bornstein (1989, 1999); Swap (1977).

12 Steinberg (1993).

13 Zajonc (1998); Devine (1995); Rosenbaum (1986); Surra et al. (2006); Morry (2007, 2009); Peplau & Fingerhut (2007); Ledbetter et al. (2007); Montoya et al. (2008); Simpson & Harris (1994).

14 DeBruine (2002, 2004); Bailenson et al. (2005).

15 Jones et al. (2004).

16 Byrne (1971); Ireland et al. (2011).

17 Gonzaga (2009). For an overview of the research on self-disclosure, see Greene et al. (2006).

18 Langlois et al. (2000); Walster et al. (1966); Feingold (1990); Woll (1986); Belot & Francesconi (2006); Finkel & Eastwick (2008); Neff (2009); Peretti & Abplanalp (2004); Buss et al. (2001); Fehr (2009); Lee et al. (2008); Reis et al. (1980). This is also true for homosexuals: Peplau & Spalding (2000). Even infants prefer attractive faces: Langlois et al. (1987); Langlois et al. (1990); Slater et al. (1998). Note that women report that the physical attractiveness is less important to their mate preferences than it actually is: Sprecher (1989).

19 Eagly et al. (1991); Feingold (1992a); Hatfield & Sprecher (1986); Smith et al. (1999); Dion et al. (1972).

20 Cash & Janda (1984); Langlois et al. (2000); Solomon (1987).

21 Cunningham et al. (1995); Cross & Cross (1971); Jackson (1992); Jones (1996); Thakerar & Iwawaki (1979).

22 Men certainly prefer youth (Buss 1989a; Kenrick & Keefe 1992; Kenrick et al. 1996; Ben Hamida et al. 1998). Signs of fertility that men prefer include clear and smooth skin (Sugiyama 2005; Singh & Bronstad 1997; Fink & Neave 2005; Fink et al. 2008; Ford & Beach 1951; Symons 1995), facial femininity (Cunningham 2009; Gangestad & Scheyd 2005; Schaefer et al. 2006; Rhodes 2006), long legs (Fielding et al. 2008; Sorokowski & Pawlowski 2008; Bertamini & Bennett 2009; Swami et al. 2006), and a low waist-to-hip ratio (Singh 1993, 2000; Singh & Young 1995; Jasienska et al. 2004; Singh & Randall 2007; Connolly et al 2000; Furnham et al 1997; Franzoi & Herzog 1987; Grabe & Samson 2010). Even men blind from birth prefer a low waist-to-hip ratio (Karremans et al. 2010).

23 Buss et al. (1990); Buss & Schmitt (1993); Khallad (2005); Gottschall et al. (2003); Gottschall et al. (2004); Kenrick et al. (1990); Gustavsson & Johnsson (2008); Wiederman (1993); Badahdah & Tiemann (2005); Marlowe (2004); Fisman et al. (2006); Asendorpf et al. (2010); Bokek-Cohen et al. (2007); Pettay et al. (2007); Goode (1996).

24 Feingold (1990, 1992b).

25 Cunningham (2009); Cunningham et al. (1990).

26 Singh (1995); Martins et al. (2007).

27 Lynn & Shurgot (1984); Ellis (1992); Gregor (1985); Kurzban & Weeden (2005); Swami & Furnham (2008). In contrast, men prefer women who are about 4.5 inches shorter than themselves: Gillis & Avis (1980).

28 Figueredo et al. (2006).

29 Langlois & Roggman (1990); Rhodes et al. (1999); Singh (1995); Thornhill & Gangestad (1994, 1999). We may have evolved to be attracted to symmetrical faces because they predict physical and mental health (Thornhill & Moller, 1997).

30 Cunningham (2009).

31 Cunningham (2009).

32 This is called reciprocal liking. See Curtis & Miller (1986); Aron et al (2006); Berscheid & Walster (1978); Smith & Caprariello (2009); Backman & Secord (1959).

33 Carducci et al. (1978); Dermer & Pszczynski (1978); White & Knight (1984); Dutton & Aron (1974).

34 Myers (2010), p. 710.

35 One example of a high-variance strategy for heterosexual men in the dating context is a bold opening line like "You look familiar. Have we had sex?" Most women will be turned off by such a line, but those who react positively are (by selection and/or by the confidence of the opening line) usually very attracted. 

36 In business, this is often said as "not everyone is your customer": 1, 2, 3.

37 For discussions of relationship maintenance in general, see: Ballard-Reisch & Wiegel (1999); Dinda & Baxter (1987); Haas & Stafford (1998).

 

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How on Earth do you come up with this stuff?

First you misrepresent the statements of this woman, whose name I don't even want to mention in such an ugly context in a public discussion. Rather than claiming that the problematic beliefs are a matter of consensus, she expressed a mere lack of certainty that the opposite is the case, and this takes only a few seconds to check by googling. Making incorrect attributions to people in public on such a sensitive topic and under their real names is, at best, callously irresponsible.

Then you go on and say that I have "said the same things openly," thus dragging me into this controversy, about which I have said nothing at all in this thread -- and about which I have never written anything here, to the best of my recollection, that would make this characterization correct under any reasonable interpretation. That this nonsense has been upvoted has lowered my opinion of LW more than probably anything else I ever saw here before.

And then people wonder why I may be reluctant to speak openly on controversial matters.

Asexuals don't experience sexual or romantic attraction.

What?! Most asexuals experience romantic attraction. Some asexuals are aromantic, but that's not the same thing.

Oops fixed thanks.

I should just have my own shortcut for that. OFT or something. :)

I think the causation may be going the other way: it's that men who are willing to rape are more likely to enjoy rape jokes, not that men who read rape jokes thereby become more willing to rape.

Another theory I've heard (although not one relevant to this particular study, except maybe in an ecological sense) is that rape jokes signal to predators that non-predatory men aren't going to socially punish them.

5Emile12y
Very plausible, similar things could be said of racist jokes. I can't think of a negative interpretation of blonde jokes though.

Do you mean negative interpretations in general, or that particular sort of negative interpretation?

I would think ill of someone who told blonde jokes, especially if they told a bunch of them. To my mind, anyone who gives a lot of time to blonde jokes is probably making themselves less able to see intelligence in blonde women. I haven't tested this belief, I'm just going on plausibility.

Why do girls say they want "nice guys" but date only "jerks"?

I find that claim bewildering because the partnered men I know aren't jerks. It could be that I'm filtering for non-jerkness, but my tentative alternate theory is that the maybe the most conspicuously attractive women prefer jerks, and the men who resent the pattern aren't noticing most women. Or possibly a preference for jerks really is common in "girls"-- not children, but women below some level of maturity (age 25? 30? whatever it takes to get tired of being mistreated?), and some men are imprinted on what they saw in high school.

For those of you who believe that women prefer jerks, what sort of behavior do you actually mean? What proportion of women are you talking about? Is there academic research to back this up? What have you seen in your social circle?

This is a terrible debate and you should all feel bad for having it. Now let me join in.

The research on this topic is split into "completely useless" and "mostly useless". In the former category we have studies that, with a straight face, purport to show that women like nice guys by asking women to self-report on their preferences. To illuminate just how silly this is, consider the mirror case of asking men "So, do you like witty charming girls with good personalities, or supermodels with big breasts?" When this was actually done, men rated "physical attractiveness" only their 22nd most important criterion for a mate - number one was "sincerity", and number nineteen was "good manners". And yet there are no websites where you can spend $9.95 per month to stream videos of well-mannered girls asking men to please pass the salad fork, and there are no spinster apartments full of broken-hearted supermodels who just didn't have enough sincerity. So self-reports are right out.

Other-reports may be slightly less silly. Herold and Milhausen, 1999, found that 56% of university women believed that women in general were more likely to ... (read more)

After talking to a couple of people about this, I should qualify/partially-retract the original comment.

Some people have suggested to me that the best metaphor a man can use to understand how women think about "nice guys" isn't an ugly duckling woman who gets turned down by the men she likes, but a grossly obese woman who never showers or shaves her legs, and who goes around complaining loudly to everyone she knows that men are all vapid pigs who are only interested in looks.

I would find this person annoying, and although I hope I would be kind enough not to lash out against her in quite the terms I mentioned above, I would understand the motivations of someone who did, instead of having to classify him as having some sort of weird Martian brain design that makes him a moral monster.

The obesity metaphor is especially relevant. Since there are people out there who think becoming skinny is as easy as "just eat less food", I can imagine people who think becoming socially assertive really is as easy as "just talk to people and be more confident".

For people who honestly believe those things, and there seem to be a lot of them, the obese woman and the socially awkward man would reduce to the case of the woman who never showered but constantly complained about how superficial men were to reject her over her smell - annoying and without any redeeming value.

Some people have suggested to me that the best metaphor a man can use to understand how women think about "nice guys" isn't an ugly duckling woman who gets turned down by the men she likes, but a grossly obese woman who never showers or shaves her legs, and who goes around complaining loudly to everyone she knows that men are all vapid pigs who are only interested in looks.

That would seem to apply better if at least some (but not all) of the significant elements of gross obesity and bad hygiene were rewarded with approval and reinforced with verbal exhortations for a significant proportion of the woman's lives. So basically the metaphor is a crock. Mind you the insult would quite possibly do the recipient good to hear anyway unless they happen to be the kind of person who will reject advice that is clearly wrong without first reconstructing what the advice should have been, minus the part that is obviously nonsense.

This is taking the unfortunate/entitled/nice/beta/shibboleth-of-your-choice males' complaint too far at face value - i.e., that they are sexually unsuccessful on account of being kind and prosocial.

People are really bad at measuring their own levels of altruism, which is hardly surprising. Those in this cluster of peoplespace are worse than average at reading social cues and others' assessments of them, and are apt to interpret "nice" and its congnates as "particularly kind and proscial," instead of what it usually means, which is "boring, but not actively offensive enough to merit an explicitly negative description." (Consider what it usually means when you describe your mother's watercolors or the like as "nice," sans any emphatic phrasing.) Likewise, we halo bad predicates onto those whom we resent - "jerk" is the male equivalent of "slut," in this sense.

What's creepy about this group is precisely the entitled attitude on display - that they deserve to enjoy sexual relations with those on whom they crush merely for being around them and not actively offending, or indeed in some cases for doing what in other contexts wou... (read more)

This is taking the unfortunate/entitled/nice/beta/shibboleth-of-your-choice males' complaint too far at face value - i.e., that they are sexually unsuccessful on account of being kind and prosocial.

I used to believe this, but after doing some research, and further experience, I changed my mind.

First, the available research doesn't show a disadvantage of altruism, agreeableness, and prosocial tendencies for men.

I used to experience agreeableness and altruism as disadvantages. Now I experience agreeableness as sometimes a big advantage, and sometimes a moderate disadvantage. Altruism is neutral, as long as I can suppress it to normal population levels (I have excessive altruistic tendencies).

Hypotheses that reconcile this data and anecdata:

  • Prosocial tendencies are orthogonal to attractiveness
  • Prosocial tendencies have a non-linear relationships to attractiveness (e.g. it's good to be average, or maybe even a bit above average, but any higher or lower is a disadvantage
  • The relationship between prosocial tendencies and attractiveness is moderated by another variable. For instance, perhaps prosocial tendencies are an advantage for extraverted men, but a disadvantage for introverts
... (read more)
4John_D10y
I suspect that while dark triad traits are desirable to women, they aren't the only desirable traits. As you said, research shows that agreeableness and altruism also tend to be attractive, and conscientious and agreeable men tend to be better dancers, and thus more attractive. (quick google search) I suspect that there are multiple types of attractive men, or you can still possess all these traits. Then again, it is important to know how the dark triad is measured to begin with. I am not sure if this is the actual test, but it looks legitimate. While saying disagree to all or most of the questions that measured lying and callousness, I still managed to score high on Machiavellianism and above average in Narcissism. (low on psychopathy) This also calls into question how "dark" some of these traits are, since outside of psychopathy, the other questions were related to self-esteem and a desire for influence, which isn't inherently evil, and can still coincide with agreeable and prosocial personalities. http://www.okcupid.com/tests/the-dark-triad-test-1
2lessdazed12y
I said, which was given some implicit endorsement (I think):
2wedrifid12y
It is doing no such thing. Make no mistake - I don't conflate altruism with approval seeking niceness and I recommend "quit being a pussy" as a far more practical bite of self talk for people in the category you describe to use than the "women only like jerks" message; I'm clearly not rejecting the analogy because I'm supporting a sob story. No, what I am doing is rejecting one soldier that happens to be on the opposite extreme to the one above. Because it is a false analogy. I don't give any approval for this either, but I don't do it out of judgement or blame. I don't give approval or sympathy because that would be counterproductive to their own goals.

For what it's worth, my reflex before reading a bunch of stuff here was closer to hearing "socially awkward man who can't manage to attract women" was closer to thinking of various annoying men who have hung around me, who I find unattractive (sometimes at the skin-crawling level [1]), but who never cross a line to the point where I feel justified in telling them to go away. This can go on for years. It is no fun.

After reading these discussions, I conclude that my preconception was a case of availability bias (possibly amplified by a desire to not know how painful things are), and so I use a more abstract category.

[1] To repeat something from a previous discussion, this isn't about being physically afraid. If I were, I'd be handling things differently. It also turned out to my surprise, that at least some men have never had the experience of that sort of revulsion. It seems to me that it's not quite the same as not wanting to be around someone who just about everyone would think was overtly ugly, though women frequently agree (independently, I think) about some men being uncomfortable to be around.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are specific elements of body language or facial expression which cause that sort of revulsion, but I don't know what they are.

To repeat something from a previous discussion, this isn't about being physically afraid.

My understanding is that it is an instinct intended to protect you from threats to your reproductive success, not threats to your survival. ie. I expect it to tend to encourage behaviors that will prevent pregnancy to losers more so than behaviors that prevent losers from killing you.

5NancyLebovitz12y
I don't think people are highly optimized. Evolution aims for good enough, rather than best hypothetically possible, and when I say hypothetically possible, I mean hypotheses generated by people from a time when no one knows the limits of what's evolutionarily possible. I've had the skin crawl effect from men of varying status, though I admit the average status is on the low side.

I don't think people are highly optimized.

Having a 'repulsion/creepiness' response to supplement an 'attraction' response seems like something to expect as an early, basic optimization. Something that would begin to be optimized before even bothering with things like human level intelligence.

7NancyLebovitz12y
Has anything like the repulsion response been seen in animals? Something I don't think I've seen discussed is that the men who set off the repulsion response seem to be pretty rare. I haven't heard of the response being studied scientifically. If PUA helps, it might not distinguish between men who have been ignored and men who have been actively avoided.

If PUA helps, it might not distinguish between men who have been ignored and men who have been actively avoided.

From what I understand of the philosophy a personal development program based on PUA would be expected and intended to reduce the amount that the guy is placed in the 'ignored' category while actually increasing the 'actively avoided' category. Because being ignored is useless (and 'no fun') while being actively avoided actually just saves time. Bell curves and blue and red charts apply.

There tends to be some lessons on how to reduce 'creepiness' in general because obviously being creepy in general is going to be a hindrance to the intended goals.

I haven't heard of the response being studied scientifically.

My brief searching for 'creepiness research' didn't turn up much either. But to be honest I don't really know where to look. :)

2cousin_it12y
Thanks a lot! Your comment made something click for me.

but who never cross a line to the point where I feel justified in telling them to go away. This can go on for years. It is no fun.

The obvious conclusion from these premises: If you had the belief that "This could go on for years and is no fun" is a valid justification for telling someone to go away then your life would contain less 'no fun'.

7wedrifid12y
And it is that easy. Just like becoming an engineer is as easy as "getting a degree and being better at math".
5Eugine_Nier12y
There's a community of men how are in fact to find effective ways to be socially assertive in a way that's attractive to women, it's called PUA.
4A1987dM12y
Becoming skinny is as easy as "just eat less food" -- as someone once pointed out, were there many plump fellows among the Auschwitz inmates liberated by the Allies? The problem is that for some people just eating less food is itself not terribly easy.
2pwno12y
Right, but more specifically, the annoying parts are their denial of the problem and reluctance to improve. We'd all be a lot more sympathetic otherwise.
8FiftyTwo12y
I suspect a large number of upvotes were purely for this line. I approve.

Unfortunately I can't provide sources at the moment (Luke probably can), but I have seen research both sociological and anthropological showing that women and female higher primates in general have a tendency to try to mate with multiple dominate highly masculine males, sometimes secretly, while they tend to have long term pairings with less dominate, less masculine males. The theory is that the genes of the more masculine men lead to more fecund offspring, while the parenting of the less masculine men leads to higher offspring survival. In society this works out to women dating more masculine men (and testosterone is of course linked to the aggressiveness and risk taking we associate with "bad boys") prior to marriage, and then marrying less masculine men (nice guys). And if they cheat, they tend to cheat with "bad boys" and have their "nice guys" raise those kids.

EDIT: For pure anecdote, I am a nice guy (I think) who always complained about the "bad boy" thing, and now I am raising a step-daughter from my wife's youthful short term relationship with a guy everyone would still call a "bad boy." My wife is winning at natural selection! As is that jerk :(

[-][anonymous]12y180

If it makes you feel better all sorts of unpleasant people are currently winning at natural selection (no offence intended to any LWer with many children or your wife).

If it makes you feel better all sorts of unpleasant people are currently winning at natural selection

I have a hard time understanding how this would make anyone feel better.

I have a hard time understanding how this would make anyone feel better.

Suffering is often ameliorated somewhat by knowing you are not alone in your situation.

3Strange712y
It can also be made worse by knowing that the suffering is a direct and inevitable result of forces they cannot plausibly alter.
7DoubleReed12y
That reminds me of that game that girls sometimes play "Given three choices of guys, which would you sleep with, date, or marry?"
8Insert_Idionym_Here12y
Guys play it too.
3pedanterrific12y
The criteria are a little different, though.
3FiftyTwo12y
I've played it in mixed groups, its generally about perceived personality features rather than subjective attractiveness.
9pedanterrific12y
I wouldn't expect this to be a recipe for honesty.
3JoshuaZ12y
I would expect this sort of game to have difficult honesty issues even when it is a single gender. For example, if some individual has a fetish that is in some way connected to one of the individuals (say for example a celebrity that frequently wears some sort of clothing, or only one of the three falls into a racial group they have a fetish for) how likely is it that someone is going to be honest about that motivation. That said, I agree that mixed groups will likely have more severe honesty issues.
2FiftyTwo12y
I've never treated the game as a data collection exercise. IT is more suited to social bonding and conversation stimulation. For more statistically useful data okcupid has done studies, as have hotornot and its various imitators.
2Blueberry12y
Why would you do that? Have you thought about killing the step-daughter or something of that nature? (People, please don't reflexively downvote that suggestion.)
4wedrifid12y
Wait... you mean it as a suggestion, not a query?
2Blueberry12y
That made me laugh hysterically for no good reason. Oh, LW and wedrifid, how I missed ye. No, I'm not literally suggesting murder. But it's what most animals would do.
1jaimeastorga200012y
Reading this anecdote made me wonder if it would be possible for a group of rational "nice guys" to cooperate with each other, refusing relationships with and shunning women who had previously been involved with and fathered children by "bad boys" even though each one of them would have to sacrifice the benefit they would individually get from entering into such a relationship. The idea being to make having a later father care for a baby sired by a jerk not a viable strategy for women, thus incentivizing them away from that behavior. (I also thought about what would happen if nice guys switched to a jerk strategy until they were ready to settle down and then switched back, since that mixed strategy appeared to dominate either pure strategy, but then I realized that that would reduce the number of childless women for guys to marry, thus leading to a tragedy of the commons.)

Reading this anecdote made me wonder if it would be possible for a group of rational "nice guys" to cooperate with each other, refusing relationships with and shunning women who had previously been involved with and fathered children by "bad boys" even though each one of them would have to sacrifice the benefit they would individually get from entering into such a relationship. The idea being to make having a later father care for a baby sired by a jerk not a viable strategy for women, thus incentivizing them away from that behavior.

Roughly speaking you seem to be describing the norm for a lot of historical civilisations that I'm familiar with. The consequences for siring bastard children by bad boys is far lower now than it often has been.

the men who resent the pattern aren't noticing most women

Seems most plausible to me.

I have had several friends who went to bars to meet women, and then were disappointed that the only women they met were the ones who enjoyed going to bars.

People think/do strange things.

For those of you who believe that women prefer jerks, what sort of behavior do you actually mean?

An accurate analysis of this issue would require unpacking the cluster of traits implied by the word "jerk," and then dividing them into several categories:

  • Traits that are indeed actively attractive to women, or some subset thereof.

  • Traits that are neutral per se, but have a positive correlation with others that are attractive, or negative correlation with others that are unattractive.

  • Traits that are unattractive, but easily overshadowed by other less obvious (or less mentionable) traits, which produces striking but misleading examples where it looks like the "jerk" traits are in fact the attractive ones.

This is further complicated by the fact that behaviors and attitudes seemingly identical to a side-observer (especially a male one) can in fact be perceived radically differently depending on subtle details, or even just on the context. This makes it easy to answer accurate observations with jeering and purported reductio ad absurdum in a rhetorically effective way.

What proportion of women are you talking about?

This question further complicates th... (read more)

and then dividing them into several categories:

Traits that are indeed actively attractive to women, or some subset thereof.

Traits that are neutral per se, but have a positive correlation with others that are attractive, or negative correlation with others that are unattractive.

Traits that are unattractive, but easily overshadowed by other less obvious (or less mentionable) traits, which produces striking but misleading examples where it looks like the "jerk" traits are in fact the attractive ones.

Here's a couple more:

  • Traits that are neutral or unattractive, but help people in their mating interaction during one-on-one interaction with a potential partner (e.g. initiation or receptiveness).

  • Traits that are neutral or unattractive, but help people compete with others of their same gender

In sexual selection, there is a difference between intersexual choice, and intrasexual competition. "Women go for jerks" or "nice guys finish last" might not be a primarily a claim about the traits that women are attracted to; rather, it could be a claim about the traits necessary to initiate with women and compete with other men. All this stuff partially overlap... (read more)

IOW the reason jerks are more successful might be that they cockblock other guys. It makes perfect sense to me and, in retrospect, I'm surprised that it took so long for someone to hypothesise this.

I wish you'd just spit out whatever unPC stuff you thinks going on, even if it was rot13'd or only PM'd to people who volunteered to read it out of curiosity.

A few bullet-points on what I see as the likely contributing factors to the "women prefer jerks" meme:

  • Romantic relationships often expose you to the worst of what people are capable of, and often end in unpleasant circumstances. If you ask someone about their most recent ex, they'll probably have more nasty stories than nice ones to tell about them.

  • If the competition for the object of my affections is charming and confident, I'm going to say he's manipulative and arrogant.

  • Making poor decisions about people you're attracted to, and systematically overlooking your partner's negative qualities, are well-established behaviour patterns in both sexes.

  • Romantic underdogs feel like they bend over backwards to be noticed by women, whereas romantically successful men seem by comparison to put in relatively little work to achieve the same goal. This perceived effort is conflated with caring or worthiness.

It strikes me that the nice-guy/jerk idiom has an analogue in the Madonna/Whore dichotomy. I was going to comment on how I'd never seen mention of this in any of the numerous feminist treatments of "nice guy syndrome" I've seen, but a cursory Google suggests it's not a new idea.

(age 25? 30? whatever it takes to get tired of being mistreated?),

Whatever age it takes to get past peak attractiveness and fertility.

2[anonymous]12y
Seems relevant.

I remember as an high school kid PUA seemed sensible. (I had a nerdy straight male friend into it, and no personal interest since if I wanted to get laid I could use boobies.) I mostly took home "People, especially women, dig confidence, and will chase rather than be chased. 'Bitches ain't shit' is therefore a desirable mindset.".

And then just today I looked into it again, starting with the Dating market value test for women. I had trouble believing it was serious. Not because I'm supposed to want sex with hot women and nothing else, but because their idea of "hot women" isn't hot at all. Why would I ever want that?

I get that liking androgyny and brains and being neutral to fat and small breasts are rather idiosyncratic traits. But what kind of guy wants a girl just old enough to legally consent who never swears, dresses sexy and fashionable without actually caring about it, same for sports, and has the exact three kinds of sex they show in cookie-cutter porn? That's not a person. That's what you get if you ask RealDoll's research department for a toy that reconciles your horror of sluts with your hatred of prudes.

...also, the hot photo is supposed to be the one on the left, right?

And then just today I looked into it again, starting with the Dating market value test for women. I had trouble believing it was serious.

That's because it's a "blue line" test. At the beginning, it explicitly points out it's orienting on averages, and defining market value in terms of breadth of appeal. It doesn't mean lots of people will like a high scorer, it means lots of people won't rule out the high scorer.

In other words, the person who scores perfectly on this test will probably not be hideously offensive to anyone -- which means they don't get ruled out early in the selection process. But a low score just means they're more likely to need a "red line" strategy, aiming at strong appeal to a narrower audience, at the cost of turning more people off. (i.e., emphasizing one's supposed "defects" would attract people who like those qualities, while turning away more of those who don't)

(Ugh. I can't believe I'm defending that misogynist a*hole, but I don't see anything wrong with the test itself, just the conclusions/connotations being drawn from it.)

2Barry_Cotter12y
An exaggeration of a real , very common type. The better the description fits the less common the type. Practically no one who reads this site would fall in that category (I think/hope) if only because boring people are boring.
2[anonymous]12y
Yes.

I will respect properly written articles on almost any subject. Not these.

One thing I demand from authors claiming to be supported by "science" is that they won't make me stop thinking in mid read. The articles behind these links do not respect the reader's opinion. Instead of making you think, they seek to shock, trump and convince. I've seen this style and these patterns before in articles about climate denial, xenophobia and religious fundamentalists. (Seriously, a lifestyle article is not a valid citation.)

I'm not saying the author has not done his fair share of reading. I'm saying he should stop waving the "this is science"-sign with one hand and be clubbing down his readers with the other.

8taryneast12y
While it's definitely interesting to point out the correlation between egg-bank and attractiveness, I have to say that my god but that site is chauvanistic! Apparently, after "hitting the wall" a woman is "sexually worthless" o_O I do not agree.
5taryneast12y
Hmmm - my comment has been quite severely downvoted. Quite interesting. I'd like to know why. perhaps I should point out the obvious mind projection fallacy inherent in the "sexually worthless" comment, instead of leaving it as an exercise to the reader... ? After all, he didn't say "Due to my own personal predilections, i find that a woman over the age of 40 is no longer at all sexually attractive for me", but instead made his value judgment and considers it to be some kind of inherent value of the woman (ie value == 0) completely oblivious to the fact that other men (and possibly women) may have a different value-judgment of that woman. I disagree with his assessment because her worth is not 0... just his own personal map-value for that woman.
[-][anonymous]12y120

I don't take Roissy all that seriously but have read quite a bit of his stuff. I've never understood him as comparing women's value as people, but rather their sexual value or dating value from the perspective of the (sort of) median man.

The sexual value is something determined by "the sexual marketplace". Sure some people like the less likeable, but they are pretty rare and thus on average the person with these traits will need to be less picky, since she/he runs into those interested in them less often.

but rather their sexual value or dating value from the perspective of the (sort of) median man.

Yep, I can understand that. though his phraseology is very clearly as though it is an inherent value of her worth as a (sexual) person... which is what I found so unappetising.

I also disagree with his valuation. I know from... well knowing 40 YO women (and older), that they do indeed suffer from diminished sexual appeal - but certainly nowhere near zero. 40YOlds get it on all the time... therefore his valuation is wrong. It is limited by his own personal perspective - and that of the average young-ish man who is himself high up on the "sexual appeal" rating.

I can definitely understand that for a man who can "get anybody" - that they would try almost exclusively for younger women, and that therefore an older woman would hold no sex appeal for them... but for anybody not an alpha male... (especially 40-50YO average men), a 40YO woman would still hold some interest.

Her "value" on the marketplace is not zero.

5HughRistik12y
While mean sexual value is an important concept, as lukeprog points out with my graph, sometimes it is not relevant. The relevant metric of success in attracting people is something like "being over a cutoff of attractiveness for a subset of the population that you desire and that you can find, and where you don't face a punishing gender ratio in that niche." For instance, regardless of your average attractiveness, you could be doing great even if 0.1% of the population is attracted to you, as long as (a) you know how to find them, (b) they fit your criteria, and (c) there isn't an oversaturation of people like you that you're competing with.
2Oligopsony12y
It's not the content of what you said (though, given the topic we're on, people are getting offended, this being one of the things LessWrong can't really discuss without exploding and drawing battle lines) but the way in which you said it; your online habitus automatically marks you as an outsider. Lurk a bit more and you'll get an idea of how to phrase things.
6taryneast12y
Thank you for responding. :) Firstly - can you define "online habitus" in this context? the dictionary gives me "physical characteristics", but I'm not sure exactly how that relates here, but I've taken a stab at it: ie that it was the emotive content of my comment that was objected to. I', surprised that the reaction against my personal expression of shock was disliked so much so that I was downvoted. Surely rational people are allowed to be offended too? :) Am I allowed to personally respond to a site that objectifies women and rates their value as objects (and values them at literally zero) in a way that shows that I do not agree? How should I have expressed my reaction in a way that would not have offended?

that site is chauvanistic

I upvoted your original comment but I disfavored this statement because it sounded like arguing against something by saying something other than "it isn't true".

If someone tells me "Japanese-Americans have average IQs 70 points higher than Korean-Americans," I don't have to try and refute that by saying "that's racist," because I have available the refutation "that's false". When I want to disfavor or shun a true idea that's unpopular, and can't say "that's false," I will have to say something else, such as "that's racist". Observers should notice when I do that, and estimate depending on the context how likely I was to respond with a negation like that had it been available.

7christina12y
Factual incorrectness is not the only objection a person could have to something. In many cases, people present what they believe to be the facts and then give their response to those facts. For example, someone says that Amy is 80 years old. They could then decide: 1.) Amy should be treated with unquestioning respect--they want to live in a society that respects their elders. 2.) Suggest that Amy should treat her children with unquestioning respect since they will have to take care of her. 3.) Say that Amy should be accorded respect, but not unquestioning respect because their preference is to treat others in an egalitarian way. 4.) Any number of other things. You could then have objections to either the fact they stated (if it is not true), or to preferences they stated (if yours differ), or to both. Preferences can reference facts, especially if they are contingent on facts to achieve other, more central, preferences. And so sometimes you can use facts to show that someone's preferences are not in accordance with their core preferences. But a person's core preferences only convey a fact about the person holding them, not a fact about the world. The world has no preference about what happens to us. Only we do.
7ArisKatsaris12y
First of all, let me say I didn't downvote you. Or upvote you either. Secondly, there's some confusion of terminology here. a) There's "agreement" in the sense of shared beliefs about the state of the world. (Epistemological agreement - ("is" statements) b) There's "agreement" in the sense of shared beliefs about how the world should be. (Moral agreement - "ought" statements) c) There's "agreement" in the sense of shared preferences. (Agreement in taste - "like" statements) (a)s have objective truth value. (c)s are subjective. (b)s have people always debate about their objectivity/subjectivity thereof. Now the three types aren't always clearly distinct. If someone makes a statement about "attractiveness" it's both a (c) statement about preferences, but it may also be a statement about what real-life people like on average -- in which case it can be an (a) statement about the distribution of preferences in a population, which has a truth value. So, if someone calls someone else "sexually worthless", and you say you don't agree -- do you mean that you simply have different preferences -- are you making a (c) statement? That you believe his statement factually false -- you're making an (a) statement about the distribution of attraction feelings towards such women in the real world? Or do you mean that you consider it MORALLY WRONG for him to speak and behave in such a rude way? If the last of these, then "I morally object to such an attitude" is obviously a clearer way of talking about your objection rather than "I do not agree" which is vague and imprecise.
3[anonymous]12y
This dosen't deserve down votes. Roissy's style (aesthetically pleasing but quite outrageous) and persona are hard to stomach (at first?).

at first.

Um, for many people (e.g. me) , it is hard to stomach at all, and I'm a het male, the sort of entity he is nominally writing for. The reason for this is simple: at a certain point style does reflect substance, and moreover, Sapir-Worf issues come into play.

Sometimes the persona comes across as fake and bizarre. Take this article on frame control. It's completely reasonable, and meshes well with what you'd read here or in books on social skills. Then he lazily throws in

Remember, girls don’t operate in a logical universe; they abide their emotions first and foremost.

and continues talking about framing, having reminded his readership that bitches be crazy. Maybe the equivalents reminders on LW ("Remember, humans don't operate in a logical universe; we abide by our biased emotions first and foremost") and social skills books ("Remember, humans don't operate in a logical universe; we abide by our emotions first and foremost, and that makes us wonderful beings because rationality means Spock") sound as artificial when you're not used to them?

8NancyLebovitz12y
Forever.. Ok, probability one minus epsilon. I see the "just jealous" claim as equivalent to A attempting to lower B's status, and when B says they don't like it, A says "you just don't like having your status lowered, so your point should be ignored".
5NancyLebovitz12y
Why did you link to Roissy rather than laying out his argument in more neutral terms?
5[anonymous]12y
The comment was clearly something user CharlieSheen picked up from Roissy.

Now, admittedly I haven't seen a whole lot of evidence in this area, but I've seen some, and I couldn't name a single woman I know personally who has ever, in my presence or by report that I've heard, gone for a jerk.

Perhaps this behavior is less common among women who would rather have a 15% chance of $1,000,000 than a certainty of $500 (because most random women I've tested choose the certain $500, but every single woman in our community that I've asked, regardless of math level or wealth level or economic literacy or their performance on the Cognitive Reflection Test, takes the 15% chance of $1M.)

Or maybe "jerk" is being used in some sense other than what I associate it with, i.e., wearing motorcycle jackets, rather than not caring about who else you hurt.

Now, admittedly I haven't seen a whole lot of evidence in this area, but I've seen some, and I couldn't name a single woman I know personally who has ever, in my presence or by report that I've heard, gone for a jerk.

I could name a fair number (in the "doesn't care about hurting others" sense, not the "wears motorcycle jackets" sense,) but none of them have been girls or women I would want to date me instead.

I suspect that the perceived trend owes a lot to a horns effect that guys build up around other guys who're dating girls they want to be dating.

7lionhearted (Sebastian Marshall)12y
Whoa. A majority of people choose $500 in EV instead of $150,000? That's scary. Have you written about this before? If not, care to give us rough numbers of how many people you've talked to about it? That blows my mind that a majority of people wouldn't get it when it's so far apart.

Keep in mind that utility isn't linear in money.

No, but I doubt it's so non-linear for most people that it remotely justifies such a choice.

If someone e.g. urgently needs a life-saving surgery that requires 500$, then they may be justified to choose a certainty of $500 over a 15% probability of a million dollars. But outside such made-up scenarios, I very seriously doubt it.

6Zack_M_Davis12y
Consider item g in the first chart on page 10 of "Cognitive Reflection and Decision Making" by Shane Fredrick. In this study, 31% of subjects with low scores on a "cognitive reflection test" took the 15% chance of the million dollars, whereas 60% of high-scoring subjects did. The p-value was less than 0.0001.
3dbaupp12y
I would suggest that it is very easy to concentrate on the 85% chance of getting nothing, and so ignore the difference in EV.
4lionhearted (Sebastian Marshall)12y
Indeed yeah. But we're not talking $500 vs. $900, we're talking orders of magnitude...

(Caveats: Small N, college-age subjects, and WEIRD) Believe it or not, someone actually tried to test the jerk theory empirically and found support for it

Hat tip: Eric Barker.

Another caveat is surrogate behavior-- what's tested is which photographs women chose, not which men.

It's occurring to me that part of what annoys me about the "women prefer jerks" meme is the implication that women are distinctively irrational. There are men who chose women who mistreat them, sometimes one such woman after another, but I've never heard anyone say "men prefer bitches".

Just on the notion level, but I've wondered whether some women (especially young women) choose bad news men for the same reason that some men (especially young men) ride motorcycles-- risk and excitement. From what I've heard, one of the reasons women chose difficult men is the hope of being able to change them.

Another possibility is availability bias-- the stereotype is the woman who spends years complaining about the awful men in her life to a patient male friend who's wondering why she never chooses him. Women who are happy with their relationships aren't going to do as nearly as much complaining about them, and probably aren't going to be talking in comparable detail about how good the relationship is.

There are men who chose women who mistreat them, sometimes one such woman after another, but I've never heard anyone say "men prefer bitches".

There, now you have. According to the Amazon Best Sellers Rank, it is currently ranked #560 overall in the Books category, #1 in Dating , #2 in Mate Seeking, and #4 in Love & Romance. Surely the idea isn't unheard of.

I've never heard anyone say "men prefer bitches"

Partially this is because men are less often the one whose preference is at the center of the relationship (the standard cultural trope is a man pursues a woman, attempting to make her prefer him) and so there is less scrutiny of men's preference by both parties, and much more scrutiny of women's preference by men (in order to understand better how to make a woman prefer him).

Partially this is also because male attraction is determined less strongly by personality, and the "bitch/jerk" adjective is about personality.

Isn't there a stereotype whereby men prefer women who play by The Rules, which apparently consist of guidelines for emotional manipulation? That counts as bitchy in my book.

Also, can someone explain the "patient male friend" part of stereotype? I think it's one of these cases:

  • Nice Guy never expresses interest; Woman assumes he's happy with friendship, including his role as confidant. He wonders why she never chooses him... because he assumes telepathy on her part?
  • Nice Guy hits on Woman repeatedly despite constant rejections on her part. She keeps having him as a friend and telling him about her relationships... because she can't get a male friend who's genuinely happy with that?
  • Nice Guy expresses interest, gets rejected. He genuinely wants the friendship but doesn't ask "please don't tell me about your relationships while I'm carrying a torch for you"... because he doesn't know how to do that without sinking the friendship as well?
  • Nice Guy expresses interest, gets rejected. He won't be satisfied with the friendship but doesn't walk away... because he hopes Woman will magically change her mind?
4NancyLebovitz12y
It occurs to me that a common factor might be that the two of them are both highly pessimistic about relationships-- neither of them is looking for someone they can be happy with.
8wedrifid12y
Really? That belief isn't all that uncommon, and for reasons somewhat similar to the 'jerk' idea. Mind you the (overwhelmingly justified) belief that men are less picky than women when it comes to their mate selection makes such beliefs less emphasised.
6HughRistik12y
I think the hypothesis would be that women choose men who are "jerks" partly because they are jerks, while men choose women who are "jerks" because they just don't care so much about personality traits, and/or despite those women being jerks. Examining this hypothesis would require an operationalization of "jerk."
9A1987dM12y
Does Chapter “You Just Ask Them” in Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman count as academic research? :-)
7[anonymous]12y
From what I understand Dark triad traits have been shown to be sexually attractive. Edit: Damn you gwern! :)
6adamisom12y
To quote another user, Scott H Young, "superficial would be the right word to describe most aphorisms, as being merely pointers to a more nuanced set of beliefs". So I'm sure it just has to do with the fact that of the bundle of qualities aggregately known as "jerks", some of those qualities are attractive. Check out the blog Hooking Up Smart for more nuanced stuff on the idea of nice men vs jerks.
1zslastman10y
Why does this debate always assume that the causal arrow points from being a jerk to sexual success? We know that power over others tends to make you a jerk. Sexual attractiveness is power. Thus, attractive jerks.

On a tangential note, if a man said to a woman that he wanted to slap her as a reaction to some offensive statement she made, would you consider it acceptable?

Mind you, I have no problem in principle with social norms that set different boundaries for the behavior of men and women. (In particular, if someone wants men's threats of violence to women, even humorous and hyperbolic ones, to be judged more harshly than vice versa, I certainly find it a defensible position.) I just find it funny to see egalitarians who profess principled opposition to such norms caught in inconsistencies, like for example here, where very few (if any) of them would react to your statement with the same visceral horror and outrage as if the sexes were reversed.

3[anonymous]12y
I don't know who you're talking about, but it isn't me. My husband sometimes jokes about beating me. I laugh.

I'm glad to hear that the two of you share a sense of humor, but the relevant comparison would be how you'd feel if a strange man mentioned slapping you in response to something you said, whether in the context of a public debate such as here or elsewhere. I would be surprised if you would be willing to take that nonchalantly. And even if you are an exception in this regard, there is no denying that the usual standards of discourse are highly asymmetric here, since there is no way that a similar statement by a man to a woman would not have caused firestorms of outrage.

Now, as I explained, I have no problem with this standard in principle. I am not expressing any condemnation of your words or attitudes. I am just using this opportunity to highlight the apparent contradiction with the general principle held by the contemporary respectable opinion that sex-asymmetric social norms are morally dubious, or worse -- and not because I wish to score a petty rhetorical point, but because I believe that if adequately considered, it would open some very important and general questions.

2[anonymous]12y
I don't consider this to be established, for one thing. For another, what I said hasn't exactly passed without comment, so I'm not very sympathetic right now to the idea that women get a free pass. But though I think your example is weak, I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that double standards in both directions continue to flourish. I'm not sure why that's relevant here, or why people think they have to be so shady about saying this kind of thing on LW. It all seems sort of melodramatic to me; I live in the southern US, and there's probably no disreputable idea you'd dare hint at that I don't hear proudly trumpeted by many of my neighbors, and nobody seems to beat them up or fire them for it. (On the other hand, if you gesture towards disreputable ideas, but don't state your position clearly or provide evidence, I'm liable to pattern-match you to rednecks. I won't do it on purpose, but I'm human, and it'll probably happen. Consider this!)
[-][anonymous]12y140

(On the other hand, if you gesture towards disreputable ideas, but don't state your position clearly or provide evidence, I'm liable to pattern-match you to rednecks. I won't do it on purpose, but I'm human, and it'll probably happen. Consider this!)

I think VM is quite open about the fact that his secret beliefs are low status. I've been wondering for a while, but I haven't been able to think of examples of ideas so reviled that they warrant secrecy besides "redneck ideas." I think it's interesting that you similarly lack examples. Maybe this is the only source of reviled beliefs, or maybe it's a US blind-spot.

Well, beliefs don't even need to be in the "reviled" category for one to conclude that it might be prudent not to express them openly. One might simply conclude that they're apt to break down the discourse, as has indeed happened on LW many times with statements that might be controversial, but fall short of "reviled" in the broader society.

Also, I think you're applying some popular but grossly inaccurate heuristics here. I can easily think of several beliefs that: (1) are squarely in the "reviled" category in today's respectable discourse in Western societies, (2) have been held by a large number of people historically, or are still held by a large number of people worldwide, and (3) are practically nonexistent, or exceptionally rare, among the segment of the U.S. population that can be labeled "rednecks" by any reasonable definition. (For beliefs that make sense only given some cultural background, I mean "exceptionally" relative to other local cultures that provide this background.)

In any case, think about the following. For any human society in history about which you have some reasonably accurate picture, except the present ... (read more)

6lessdazed12y
Let's link to it again: Paul Grahm's What You Can't Say.
7ArisKatsaris12y
Cannibalism. Incest. Human sacrifice. Bestiality. Any open supporter of any of the above would probably do well to hide it (at least if they're using their real-life name), but I wouldn't call any of the above "redneck ideas" (by which I understand you to mean racism/sexism/homophobia/etc)

Cannibalism. Incest. Human sacrifice. Bestiality.

Any open supporter of any of the above would probably do well to hide it (at least if they're using their real-life name), but I wouldn't call any of the above "redneck ideas" (by which I understand you to mean racism/sexism/homophobia/etc)

I don't have any objection to bestiality. Having sex with animals seems like a less harmful thing to do to an animal than killing it and eating it. I also don't object to other people who are consenting adults ignoring taboos regarding incest so long as they ensure that negative reproductive outcomes are avoided. For that matter cannibalism is fine by me as long as murder isn't involved (although I suggest avoiding the brain). Human sacrifice is a big no no though!

9Emile12y
Also: pedophilia; the Idea that the Chinese government system (technocratic dictatorship) is better (in terms of outcomes) than the US Government system.

Also: pedophilia

"Sex between adults and young teenagers, as long as there is no obvious coercion involved, is not nearly as harmful as generally supposed" is definitely something that you can't say - and the fact that you can't say it has been demonstrated experimentally.

5Prismattic12y
To clarify terminology here, pedophilia is sexual attraction to prepubescent children. There is a different word, which is escaping me at the moment, for a sexual preference for adolescents.
5Atelos12y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia depending on which stage of adolescence you're talking about.
3[anonymous]12y
I've no disagreement with your comment Atelos, but - why do those words exist? Is there a cluster of human minds in thingspace that have "sexual preference of adults for mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19"? Do they share any other properties in common? Eliezer on the subject of words that should not exist: Eliezer also suggests a reason why someone might coin such a word: in order to sneak in connotations. Also note that 15-25 and 18-21 are typically given as the prime age ranges of female physical attractiveness by Roissy and his commenters (although since these are arbitrary cut-offs, there's no need to give them a name). The 15-19 age range of "ephebophilia" cuts across this age range seemingly at random. The same goes for hebephilia, attraction to 11-14 year-olds. There is no discontinuity in the characteristics of a typical human between 14 and 15 years of age, and I don't see why hebephiles should form a compact cluster in thingspace either. On the other hand paedophilia does seem a valid word, because attraction to pre-pubescents seems qualititatively different from attraction to fertile human beings (there are evolutionary considerations at play, and there are great physical changes in a short space of time during puberty). Properties shared in common by paedophiles are presumably qualitative differences in "brain wiring" in comparison to humans of typical sexuality. Interestingly, Robin Hanson misuses the word pedophile in this post. The regular conflation of attraction to young fertile humans and attraction to prepubescent children in this way is another strange definitional phenomenon that calls for explanation.
6wedrifid12y
There are people with a sexual preference for people from the age of their birth right up to and even past the age of their death. Since there are many such people it is easier to have words that give a ballpark to their sexual preference than to say "someone with a specific sexual preference for humans between the ages of X and Y" every single time. The sexual preference for people of a given age is more than enough to make the word relevant. That detail is predictive of all sorts of things. Most crudely it is a prediction of which people the chronophile in question will try to have sex with. The terms are defined in terms of physical development rather than age and are as good a division as you can expect for a process of transition which is gradual yet clearly does represent a change. There really is a place for a word (ephebophilia) that means "not particularly sexually attracted to adults but definitely sexually attracted to people that have only recently reached the stage where they are obviously reproductively viable". (With the caveat that it is stupid to use the same word for the preference for males and females at this stage. Both groups are more similar to adults of their sex than they are to each other!) Or, in this case, the opposite. In most cases injecting the word ephebophile into a context will expunge connotations rather than introducing them. In the case of a sexually active ephobophile using the word ensures that all "people who have sex with those who are under the age at which it is legally permissible to have sex with them" aren't lumped in together. Because they aren't @#@%ing pedophiles and because while both practices are illegal they have entirely different moral connotations. For that matter the active practice of the various illegal chronophilias also have different practical implications. Counter-intuitively (unless you think about it) in the case of rape I seem to recall that a rape of a girl that is sexually mature does greater psy
4[anonymous]12y
Confining the discussion to females (which seems sensible given that the terms ephebophilia, paedophilia etc. seem to be most often used in the context of male attraction to females) the age range 15-19 is rather close to the widely agreed-upon (by men) 5-year age range of females in their physical prime of roughly 18-22. 15-year olds have been reproductively viable for about 4 years on average. 19-year-old women are about as attractive as they’ll ever be! I struggle to imagine when someone would really want to use this word ephebophilia. “He’s an ephebophile; I bet he wants to have sex with that cute 19-year-old” – absurd. There’s just too much overlap between ephebophilia and normal male sexuality for it to be a useful predictor. Even if the girl in quesiton is 15, it seems that the extent to which an older man might target her as a mate in today’s society depends more on how up-tight, how scrupulous or how socialised he is – whether he prefers slightly younger (by 3 years) women than the average man would generally be difficult to tell from outside, and being “normal” in this regard doesn’t preclude attraction to a 15-year-old any more than it does attraction to a 25-year-old in any case. There are words like “creeper” and “pervert” that might be used to describe the type of person who appears to pay undue attention to younger teenage girls. This seems to exhaust the social utility of having a word for someone who prefers slightly younger women than does the average man. Note that this concept is also highly contingent; plenty of human societies would consider overt sexual attraction to young teenage girls, insofar as sexual attraction is acceptable in general, to be unremarkable (as Hanson’s piece points out). Ephebophilia therefore appears to be useful, if at all, as a scientific term only. And in that case, where is the evidence that ephebophiles form a meaningful category? Why not have special words for adults who are attracted to 22-25 year-olds in parti
3wedrifid12y
Have you read the wikipedia article behind the link? Apart from giving examples of where the word is actually useful it also makes clear that your example would be a misunderstanding. Being attracted to cute 19 year old girls - or even cute 15 year old girls - isn't the point. It is being attracted to young adolescent girls to the exclusion of or with strong dominance over any attraction to adults. So a prediction that would be somewhat more reasonable to make would be that the ephebophiliac would be less attracted to a 23 year old supermodel than to a fairly average 15 year old girl. fat. veryfat. obese. Reference class tennis. I reject the argument by analogy. If you actually did wonder that back through the analogy you would probably look at the third sentence of the wikipedia article and follow the link. If a matter of sexual preference is significant enough that it ensures that someone will never be able to legally satisfy his (or her) preferences anywhere within our entire culture then it is @#%@ well worth a word too.
2[anonymous]12y
The point is about arbitrary "scientific" gradings pulled out of thin air. Short, very short, diminutive - they are vague context-dependent categorisations that are suitable given the continuous nature and contingent relevance of the variation in question. This is not comparable to rigid, highly specific classifications like my putative "veryshortman", which is how I would characterise words like ephebophilia. There should be a good reason for the existence of such a term, and that reason is not apparent. The other problem with the specificity of “ephebophilia” is also that it overlaps with the typical 5-year window in which an average male would find a female most physically attractive. Therefore it can’t even be justified on the grounds that the psychologists are binning males into continuous but arbitrarily demarcated categories of “normal”, “ephebophile” and “hebephile”. You said: "Most crudely it is a prediction of which people the chronophile in question will try to have sex with". I pointed out that this alleged use to which the word might be put is redundant, since 15-19 year-old women are among the most attractive to men in any case. Generally the large majority of heterosexual men would want to have sex, if the conditions were right, with an attractive girl of this age, particularly a 19-year-old! I went on to point out that if we look at the other extreme (15-year-olds) scrupulousness and other character traits probably play a bigger role than ephebophilia in assessing the likelihood of a man attempting to mate with a girl of that age, in this society. That sounds about as reasonable, given the definition of ephebophile, as suggesting that an average man would be more attracted to a plain 18-year-old than to a 27-year-old supermodel. I.e. unreasonable, unless I missed the part where it is defined as exlusive attraction to 15-19 year-olds (in which case I would ask for some evidence that such people even exist). I did so already, and noticed that tele
2wedrifid12y
Fascinating. Following those links I just discovered I'm a teleiophile. Also a gynephile but I probably could have guessed that one myself. I'm somewhat nonplussed with having the word ephebophilia refer to a preference for either females of approximately 14-16 or for males of an equivalent level of development (so slightly older). Unless for some reason people with one preference have a particularly high chance of also having the other preference. Because by this age it is an entirely different kind of preference so if you are going to go to all the trouble of making up names for various categories you may as well have "likes young men" different to "likes young women". Having just one word for pedophilia and perhaps hebophilia makes somewhat more sense given the much smaller difference between sexes at the younger ages.

It's very bad to have a single word that many people will interpret as "being attracted to people you can't have sex with, and having to live with a lot of fear and shame and stigma", and many other people interpret as "raping particularly vulnerable people".

No disagreement on that, though I suspect that even if everybody understood the first meaning, it would still be reviled.

(I know a (non-practicing) pedophile who attempted to "reclaim the word" by outing himself and distancing himself from child molesters. It - unsurprisingly - still didn't go well for him).

This guy is a hero. Okay, not a very effective hero, but still.

6TheOtherDave12y
Unsurprisingly indeed. Still, somebody has to be first, and I admire his willingness to do so.
5Vaniver12y
This opinion is widely held by many active participants in mainstream US culture. "Reviled" should be replaced with "reviled by ___" in order for this conversation to be precise.
4dlthomas12y
I briefly read that as a colon...
5steven046112y
It sounds to me like you picked ideas that were maximally superficially offensive under the constraint that at least one person might defend them, rather than ideas that were maximally defensible under the constraint that they were offensive. Focusing on the ideas that are held by people stupid enough to blurt them out leaves you vulnerable to a selection effect. If there were classes of political ideas such that anyone rational enough to believe them was also rational enough not to tell, how would you know?
4ArisKatsaris12y
Was the latter what was desired? Then I could mention ideas like eugenics, weighting voting power by IQ, banning theism in general or monotheism in particular, panopticon cities (or other means for global surveillance). I don't support the last two, but I bet I could make some good arguments about them. The first two I'd probably actually approve of, depending on the specific implementation. But are these ideas really so offensive that it'd be dangerous for people to reveal them? I don't think so. Right now the maximally defensible political idea that I'd not feel very safe to discuss in Greece is that my country should recognize the Republic of Macedonia under that name. I don't think that idea is offensive to anyone here, even though it's synonymous with treason in Greece. Science fiction is useful in allowing people to describe political ideas but maintain plausible deniability. Building Weirdtopia may be a relevant thread, though it'd be wrong for people to think that I actually support the weird ideas I mentioned there.
3JoshuaZ12y
I'll come out and say I have no problem with cannibalism if the individual being cannibalized consented to it before they died. (Otherwise one is using property from their estate without permission and that's theft.) An argument can be made that in societies without abundant food, a cannibalism taboo is more useful, but that obviously doesn't apply today. Incest I have more mixed views on, but assuming one is talking about adult siblings who are consenting and not going to have children, I don't see an issue, even though I personally find it disgusting. Parent-offspring incest even when they are both adults isn't ok because it is extremely difficult to remove the power-imbalance issues. In practice, difficult to tell when an animal is consenting. But if we could confirm consent then I'd be ok with it. But, my view here isn't really fully consistent in that by this logic I should be worried about ducks not consenting to each other (a very large fraction of duck sex is rape). Regardless, whether or not I find it disgusting, consenting individuals should be allowed to do it. Willing victim, sure why not? If we think it is ok for a Jehovah Witness to refuse blood transfusions or an Orthodox Jew to refuse a heart transplant, why not allow active sacrifice? In this case it might even have positive results. As Ellie Arroway observed, celibate clergy could help reduce inherited predispositions to fanaticism, and this might have a similar selective effect.
2Strange712y
Cannibalism comes with some very nasty disease-transmission issues. It's possible to be consistent about considering duck-on-duck rape bad and still assigning a relatively low priority to preventing it, compared to other societal problems, or more personal objectives.
3[anonymous]12y
I wouldn't call any of the above "ideas" at all. You are listing outlawed practices, not tabooed beliefs. True, "support for incest" is an idea, but if there is a covert ideology behind it it is not nearly as extensive and widespread as the ideology behind e.g. sexism.
3DoubleReed12y
Aw, no mention of Necrophilia? It's even a victimless crime!
8Vladimir_M12y
Haha, I think you're displaying some serious prejudice (in multiple directions) by thinking that I'm supposed to mind this so badly.
2[anonymous]12y
"Prejudice" may not be the mot juste. If I filled one pickup truck with rednecks, and another with members of my own family, I'm not sure you'd be able to tell the difference. Hell, a few people would probably have to go in both trucks. It wasn't so much that I expected you to be viscerally horrified by the association with low-SES rural Southern whites, as that being pattern-matched to rednecks has what I thought were obvious drawbacks. Just for one: this being Less Wrong, I'm pretty confident you don't think zygotes have souls. No doubt there are many other, less obviously incongruent beliefs in the redneck belief cluster you wouldn't remotely endorse.
7[anonymous]12y
Not being American or part of the Anglosphere or Western European derived culture I read this as:
4[anonymous]12y
Noticed you assumed I'm a Yankee, considered challenging you to a duel, decided with this crowd it probably wouldn't go over.
5[anonymous]12y
Ah sorry, then it was just classism! :)
2[anonymous]12y
There's a certain subset of mostly Western, white men, largely middle-class rather than extremely wealthy or poor, who see the existence of civil rights activism on behalf of various minorities and the fact that it has succeeded in making it somewhat more costly to signal prejudice socially in polite company, and quite a bit moreso to do so openly in an institutional capacity, and conclude that this therefore means that it is now beyond the pale to do anything other than adhere to rigid standards of political correctness for the sake of controlling thought. These are people, by and large, who in coming of age and seeking to support themselves, didn't break through all their barriers to self-actualization or realize their wildest dreams of success, but managed to get some kind of payoff for their effort in terms of making ends meet (even if it's difficult and provides no insulation from suffering or strife in their lives), and certainly don't feel like they directly benefitted from any unethical practices or prejudices (even passively-conferred ones common in society). Since humans tend to model the emotions of others from their own baseline, they find it difficult to believe that anyone could genuinely have it that much worse, and conclude that activist groups of women and minorities are out to demonize them and censor them. They find it difficult to conceive that anybody else's life, at least in their own cultural sphere, could really be that bad, unless the person had just failed on merits, and wanted to blame someone else or hijack the fruits of their own effort out of laziness. Then, in an environment dominated numerically by similar people, they find it similarly plausible to think that if they voice a belief that is uncharitable towards, or does not reflect well upon, some social minority or other, they will be...well, it's not clear what. Censored? Hunted down and sued? I'm not sure what they're really afraid of, but they're angry about the idea that it mig

There's a certain subset of mostly Western, white men, largely middle-class rather than extremely wealthy or poor, who see the existence of civil rights activism on behalf of various minorities and the fact that it has succeeded in making it somewhat more costly to signal prejudice socially in polite company, and quite a bit moreso to do so openly in an institutional capacity, and conclude that this therefore means that it is now beyond the pale to do anything other than adhere to rigid standards of political correctness for the sake of controlling thought.

The rhetorical sleight of hand here is that "prejudice" is used with an ambivalent meaning. On the one hand, this word is used for any application of certain kinds of conditional probabilities about people, which are deemed to be immoral according to a certain ideological view. On the other hand, it is supposed to refer to the use of conditional probabilities about people that are inaccurate due to biases caused by ignorance or malice. Now, it is logically possible that the latter category just happens to subsume the former -- but the real world, of course, is never so convenient.

And if the latter category does not ... (read more)

3[anonymous]12y
I apologize for the confusion -- you seem to think that my using the noun constitutes an attempt to bill some unspecified set of statements and ideas as examples of the first thing you listed. What I'm actually doing, just so you can read my post accurately, is saying that prejudice is a thing (as per your second definition which you apparently thought I was being sneaky about), that it exists (I presume this at least is uncontentious to you?), and that in general it's a true statement it's now more costly to signal certain forms of that openly, according to prevailing social mores. In other words, if you have no objection to the assertion: "An employer in the US these days cannot generally refuse a job applicant by openly referring to the applicant's race as a disqualifying factor, without expecting some form of social reprisal", then you now understand what I meant when I used the word prejudice in that sentence. So, just to be sure I'm absolutely clear, since this is apparently confusing: When I say I mean that it is now more difficult to signal certain forms of prejudice (not specific as to what particular things constitute prejudice; pick an example you find unobjectionable) casually or irrespective of one's audience, without garnering some social risk.

What I'm actually doing, just so you can read my post accurately, is saying that prejudice is a thing (as per your second definition which you apparently thought I was being sneaky about), that it exists (I presume this at least is uncontentious to you?), and that in general it's a true statement it's now more costly to signal certain forms of that openly, according to prevailing social mores.

You are still obscuring the issue. Yes, of course that people frequently hold prejudiced beliefs that are biased due to ignorance or malice, and that some categories of such beliefs (though by no means all) have become more costly to signal in recent history. The question, however, is whether there are also some true beliefs, or uncertain beliefs that may turn out to be true given the present state of knowledge, that are also costly to express (or even just to signal indirectly) nowadays. Would you really assert that the answer to that question is no?

And if your answer to that question is yes, then what basis do you have for asserting that "a broader social pattern into which [you] see [my] behavior falling" consists of people who are unhappy because they find it costly to express prejudiced beliefs that are biased due to ignorance or malice?

5[anonymous]12y
I would not. I am doubting your claim that your beliefs are really so beyond the pale to the social mores of your peers here, that you'd be unfairly suppressed and/or censored, or otherwise hurt "the cause" of LW any moreso than you might be saying what you already do freely. I could be wrong about that, but I also have different estimates of the real, net social cost to signalling something unpopular, especially for someone who consistently signal-boosts in your observed patterns in this environment. I would be unsurprised to learn you believe that IQ represents general intelligence and that it is primarily genetic, and that all personality traits are ultimately genetic or inconsequential in the scheme of things, and that they are linked to race, and that this could get people upset at you if you just said it at random at a party. I would be very surprised if it got you successfully sued, persecuted in a tangible way, or indeed anything worse than flamed on the internet for voicing this openly. Or arrested, or fired from your job, or targeted by a group like Anonymous for ongoing harassment... However, based on what you've said about your reasons for not revealing some subset of your beliefs here, you appear to fear consequences considerably more significant than just someone being mad at something you said on the internet, and this seems...disproportionate, incorrect, biased -- a skewed misunderstanding of the reality of your likely risks and costs.

I would be very surprised if it got you successfully sued, persecuted in a tangible way, or indeed anything worse than flamed on the internet for voicing this openly.

What do you think happened to Stephanie Grace - don't you think a private email sent to a few friends has affected her career prospects ? James Watson and Lawrence Summers also got lynched for their opinions.

I don't think anybody risks getting sued or arrested, but they can have their careers harmed.

Having certain topics discussed too openly on Lesswrong could result in several unfortunate things happening.

  1. It could make certain potential rationalists be deterred from participating in the community.

  2. It could attract the attention of certain contrarians who are less-than-rational and, for various reasons, should not necessarily be considered potential rationalists.

  3. Most importantly, from the standpoint of the Singularity Institute (or, at least, what I think is its standpoint), it could increase the probability of human extinction by harming the SI's reputation.

5[anonymous]12y
Mm, those reasons do make some sense. I think as far as 1 goes, it seems to me like that's already happening -- I know a few people not on this site (who discovered it independently of myself, none of whom know each other), and many more I've encountered about online, who explicitly view LW as essentially compromised by 2, hence they have no interest in being here. YMMV how much those people are reachable or desireable, of course, but it's difficult for me to disagree with their basic perception that this place is already full of contrarian-cluster types who're intellectuals but still quite biased. I also wonder about signalling now, re: "less-than-rational" -- given what I understand of rationality as it's described and the reasons humans don't tend to display that trait most of the time, it seems like it's only asymptotically-reachable -- you can reduce the frequency of incorrect decisions and amend certain biases in short or long-term ways, but you probably can't get rid of it altogether. Who here is truly "rational?" Even Eliezer Yudkowsky still has his own biases -- the most you can hope for is, well, "less wrong", and that is work to achieve. So assuming (big assumption here!) that I understand the about rationality and how LW views it, and why it's desireable and how much realistically a human being can self-optimize for that trait, it seems like "less than rational" should probably be avoided. Aren't we all? Aren't we all going to be until such time as we come up with some kind of game-breaking thing that allows a person to really just run rationality full-time if that's what they want?
8NancyLebovitz12y
Trent Lott's Senate career was destroyed because he praised Strom Thurmond. I'm not saying that sort of thing happens often, but it's not nothing. I wish more people would extrapolate from their own vulnerability to insults to the idea that people in general are vulnerable to insults, but this doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon.
1CharlieSheen12y
You forgot cis-hetero.
2[anonymous]12y
Obligatory XKCD explaining how hypothetical situations work.

Further comments by you may be deleted without warning or notice. Please leave Less Wrong.

Please go away. You've earned yourself -262 Karma points in the last 30 days; you should take the hint.

(Relevant post.)

This comment might not be popular on a quick knee-jerk level, but it's worth getting out there for accuracy.

Under "Many partners" you've got Singlehood, Friendship 'with benefits', Polyamory.

You're missing one of the most common historical kinds of relationships - monogamous commitment from woman to man, man taking care of multiple households in a committed way.

The first Tokugawa Shogun, for instance -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu#Ieyasu_as_a_person

16 children with 11 wives and concubines.

King Ts'ao Ts'ao of Wei -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao#Family

Muhammad -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Wives_and_children

It's not a Western tradition. The West has a strong romantic/platonic love ideal, that moves into monogamy under Christianity, and some non-monogamy later built on some mix of liberalism, enlightenment values, and humanism.

But still, it's been a very common family/dating/relationship through history. It still persists, though it doesn't get much media coverage.

Current Sheik of Dubai -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_bin_Rashid_Al_Maktoum#Personal_life_and_education

Current Prime Minister of Italy -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Be... (read more)

8JoachimSchipper12y
Honest question: has this ever been common? All the cases you list are "king" of their time and place. I thought you were going to point out that adultery was the classical way of having multiple partners...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/8654/?single_page=true

Indeed, Siberia today is suffering such an acute “man shortage” (due in part to massive rates of alcoholism) that both men and women have lobbied the Russian parliament to legalize polygamy. In 2009, The Guardian cited Russian politicians’ claims that polygamy would provide husbands for “10 million lonely women.” In endorsing polygamy, these women, particularly those in remote rural areas without running water, may be less concerned with loneliness than with something more pragmatic: help with the chores. Caroline Humphrey, a Cambridge University anthropologist who has studied the region, said women supporters believed the legalization of polygamy would be a “godsend,” giving them “rights to a man’s financial and physical support, legitimacy for their children, and rights to state benefits.”

4A1987dM12y
Well, there is woman shortage in China, so...
5lix12y
I am told this relationship style (polygynous with multiple households) is common in Latin America, and I do know several males there who have engaged in it. These males are middle-class - doctors and the like. Polygyny also occurs in other Western cultures, although more covertly, in the form of the prestigious man and his "bit on the side" (who is usually non-reproductive, monogamous and hoping to oust the current alpha female - in the absence of contraception this would probably end up with multiple households). So I'm inclined to think it happens whenever there are massive power inequalities both between males (such that a woman is better off with a fraction of the resources of a wealthy man than with all the resources of a poor man) - and between males and females (such that wealthy men are better off "collecting" multiple poor women than marrying one wealthy one).
3Paradrop12y
It's probably hard to answer that accurately. I've read arguments about how commonplace polygamy and harems were and they usually go like this: a) Old sources rarely take interest in the lives of common men, but we know that society tolerated multiple wifes and households in extraordinary people. b) Household requires wealth. More households require more wealth. c) Common men could support one household at most, if any. d) Monogamy was de-facto standard (for economic reasons). Hope this helps.
2Vaniver12y
I've heard that absolute rulers liked to keep everyone else down, to cement their own position. This often involved limiting the number of wives other men could have, and limiting how closely they could marry (oftentimes the emperor would ban cousin marriage for everyone else, but then marry his own cousins and sisters, to prevent having to lose anything by way of dowry).
5dbaupp12y
I don't think "taking care" is always the best description, especially in the case of Berlusconi, for example.

I quite liked the post, I only have one niggle:

"For example, in heterosexual dating the man is expected to ask for the date, plan the date, and escalate sexual interaction. A woman expects that she will be pursued and not have to approach men, that on a date she should be passive and follow the man's lead, and that she shouldn't initiate sex herself."

this is an extremely US-centric view of dating culture.

In Aus, women do not expect men to pay for dates, and while the bias is still weighted towards the men being more likely to ask woman out or to initiate sexual advancement... it's not the expectation.

It's only one data point, but most of my BFs I pursued, rather than the other way around - and most of my girl-friends have similar stories.

3lukeprog12y
Fixed, thanks.
3taryneast12y
Just wanted to say - I'm impressed by your dedication to improving your writing style - both in the amount of reference-reading you're doing to fuel your topics, and in how much you're willing to take on board the feedback from the community.
[-][anonymous]12y160

The plans for the Death Ray are already out there. The two possible discussions are, first, whether it's ethical to kill someone with a Death Ray.

The second discussion asks whether the effectiveness of the Death Ray (compared to just punching someone) can be attributed to the placebo effect. Or maybe the Death Ray only works on the sort of people that evil villains want to kill, but when it comes time to protagonists, our opponents are mostly invulnerable to Death Rays. It's also possible that the Death Ray doesn't really work better than chance, but it gives villains the confidence to step up and shoot someone who's about to have a heart attack, anyway. Then again, maybe a lot of people prefer to be shot with Death Rays and it's hypocritical to say that the tried-and-true method of punching someone to death is better just because it doesn't involve any mechanical devices...

This doesn't mark it as a natural explanation. By the same pattern, I don't have a tail because I'm not a kangaroo.

8thomblake12y
But in fact, you don't have a tail because you're not a kangaroo. And if we were all fairly familiar with kangaroos and thought they were fairly analogous to Vladimir_Nesovs, then we would make note of the distinction.

I would like to propose that any post immediately become locked once its number of comments reaches 1337.

Having read every single one of the 1337 comments, I have concluded that there is nothing to be gained from any further comments that might be added, and that the above solution should be applied immediately so as not to waste anyone else's time or karma.

8lukeprog12y
On December 7th, your prediction was falsified.
2CronoDAS12y
Wow.
2lessdazed12y
The greater the value of your comment, the greater benefit there has been from allowing more than 1337 comments on posts. But seriously, I don't think the risk of this discussion being continued in an unrelated, peaceful post is worth it.

Risky: If we're going to discuss "how to stick your dick in people", which is an important subtopic of PUA, and completely ignore ethics, we're going to discuss rape.

If the subject was "How to stick your dick in people" then rape would come into it. But it isn't. If you are going to rape people then you don't need PUA. It'd be kind of redundant. That this kind of disingenuous argument is tolerated in this context (parent was +1 when I encountered it, not -10) is why I am not against tabooing all related subject matter unilaterally. If people can get away with this something is wrong.

Potentially risky: A core part of PUA is creating and signalling high status. This is often done by lowering one's opinion of women. While LWers are unlikely to start endorsing the verbal belief that women who have sex on the first date are worthless

What on earth are you talking about? That's approximately the opposite of the kind of belief that is useful for a PUA. Which illustrates the problem with having the majority of any discussion dominated by 'ethics'. It is roughly speaking an excuse for people who are completely ill informed to throw opinions around that are based on an almost entirely fictional reality.

4PhilosophyTutor12y
This is a false dichotomy, and the child post asking for clarification should not have been voted down. PUA, if it worked, would be an excellent way for a date-rapist to get women alone in circumstances such that there might be reasonable doubt in a subsequent court case as to whether or not the victim consented to sex. Hence the idea that if you are going to rape people then PUA is of no use to you is trivially false. Also it should go without saying that an agent whose goal is to maximise the amount of sex they get disregarding all ethical concerns is an agent that will date-rape under some circumstances, specifically those circumstances where they get a woman alone, are not successful in obtaining consensual sex at that time and are not otherwise unable to commit rape safely. I think what this actually illustrates is the mind-killing power of the PUA topic. Obviously fallacious arguments are getting voted up heavily because they defend PUA and attack ethics, which is extremely concerning. I am moving towards the opinion that this is not a fixable problem and that it's indeed the utility-maximising move from the larger LW perspective to sweep the PUA community and their views back under a rug and taboo them from emerging.
3wedrifid12y
Yes, PUA skills are generalizable to a certain extent. Rather than use them to seduce people you could use them to rape people, kidnap them and harvest their organs to sell on the black market or to try to convince them to buy some steak knives. But again, as you quoted: If the subject was "How to stick your dick in people" then rape would come into it. But it isn't. Yes, and conventional rape without the pesky hassle of pick up too - and I'm honestly not sure which kind of rape comes with the greatest risk of getting caught. But nobody has ever suggested that we discuss how to maximise sex. That is the whole point being made here - that equivocation in the great-grandparent just isn't acceptable. I have a similar concern - at least in as much as it troubles me that sloppy thinking tends to be accepted based on the fact that it is talking about a moral/ethical/social-political position. I have made rather different observations about how the trend seems to flow. It is one thing to suggest tabooing a subject - and with the caveat that it must be relationship and dating advice that is tabooed (so as not to allow a distorted reality to remain) a lot of people agree. But it is an entirely different thing to try to declare just the opposing view (or your stereotype thereof) to be unacceptable. Now I'm curious. The account PhilosophyTutor is a new account which has more or less contributed only via PUA-ethical debate. Yet I'm getting the impression here that you are coming from, well, a "larger LW perspective". Is PhilosophyTutor a dummy account for more generally active member so that you can get involved in the subject without it looking bad for your primary identity or are you actually a new user who thus far has mostly been interested in dating-ethics?
2lessdazed12y
Disagreeing with your specific moral prescriptions for everyone is not attacking ethics in general.
2MixedNuts12y
What I'm talking about is techniques that get people to let you stick your dick in them. Many of these techniques grow more effective as they are intensified, but also less ethical after a certain point. "Get them drunk" is an example, but not PUA. Better examples would be persevering (necessary to pass simple shit-tests, but nagging too much will make people so desperate to be left alone they may well agree to sex), and intermittent reinforcement (ranging from not being a spineless, clingy sycophant, to emotional abuse). Consider the difference between the slut and the quality girl. Also the phrase "pumped and dumped". This belief is useful because if a woman agrees to sex early, you can think that you're worth more than her, and display related behaviors (making her chase you and fear competition); moreover, if you get sex by promising to call the next day but don't, you don't have to feel guilty because she's just a slut anyway.
[-][anonymous]12y110

(..., but nagging too much will make people so desperate to be left alone they may well agree to sex)

I have a very hard time imagining this working. Women and men of high social status have very effective ways of getting rid of people that fall short of sex. Also constant "nagging" signals horrible things about you in pure fitness terms, it much reduces one's attractiveness, I can't see why this would be rewarded with sex.

Sex with a woman might happen in spite of nagging, not because of it.

Seriously, stop feeding the troll. I am downvoting replies to sam0345's comments, and encourage others to do so as well.

4Vladimir_Nesov12y
(I was following this strategy was a while too.)
[-][anonymous]12y150

So basically this series will try to do this but systematically avoid any PUA references and trying to find ways to find some relevance to a few extra groups of people (besides heterosexual males) in order to avoid mind killing?

2fburnaby12y
Your comment sounds like a complaint. Is it?
[-][anonymous]12y200

Partially yes. Some PUA concepts are really neatly formulated, a fraction of LWers are familiar with them and at the end of the day the original synthesis was done by the PUA community, having a bottom line partially written by X, then searching for academic papers to help write up stuff to fill the void once X is cut out is an easy way to stumble rationality-wise once or twice along the way, and thus is bad practice, but mostly I was just curious.

Generally I think avoiding mindkillers is a good thing for the community in my mind, and the comment section of this discussion is better than I expected, so perhaps the comment is coming of harsher than intended.

It was mean more in a "oh I see what you did there, am I right?" way.

Generally I think avoiding mindkillers is a good thing for the community in my mind, and the comment section of this discussion is better than I expected, so perhaps the comment is coming of harsher than intended.

I think your comment was quite appropriate. Even under the best imaginable scenario, these articles and their follow-up discussions will suffer from at least two problems.

First, there is the conspicuous omission of any references to the PUA elephant in the room. The body of insight developed by this particular sort of people, whatever its faults, is of supreme practical importance for anyone who wants to formulate practical advice in this area. Without referencing it explicitly, one can either ignore it altogether and thus inevitably talk nonsense, or pretend to speak based solely on official academic literature, which is disingenuous and unfair in its failure to attribute credit (and also misleading for those who would like to pursue their own research in the matter). It's as if someone wanted to talk about electronics but insisted that the only legitimate references should be from pure academic quantum theory, and the nuts-and-bolts work of tech entrepreneurs and ind... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y240

Yet since in our culture the discussion (let alone practical use) of certain kinds of conditional probabilities about people is considered immoral, discussing these things while remaining within the contemporary inoffensive bounds is as if one wanted to discuss sexual techniques while respecting the prudery norms of 17th century puritanism.

And this was the reason why, I didn't expect a direct response to the original question, from any of the authors. But as well as your opinions stated here resonate with my own, I feel I do need to play the devil's (who is a thoroughly socialized chap) advocate:

People still realized when sex was talked about. And some information was distributed in this way.

While obviously this is not necessarily a stable situation, besides the euphemism treadmill people do eventually shorten the useful inference gaps. Indeed I would argue that cycles form around these sorts of things, perhaps 19th century Victorian society with its anomalous attitude to discussing sexuality is an example of such a spiral and I think in the 20th century there are also to be found potential examples of such spirals in some places.

This premise however is flawed, and those who

... (read more)

Generally some information is better than no information and I would say that for all intents and purposes mainstream advice on dating and relations between the sexes is more or less no information.

Actually, I'd say there's a whole lot of strongly misleading information, and the situation is much worse than in most other areas of life. For example, in the conventional wisdom about job hunting there is certainly a lot of trite and suboptimal information, and truly great advice is always a matter of insider information to which few people are privy -- but there is nothing like, say, the respectable opinion telling you that it's best to show up for the job interview drunk and puke on the interviewer's desk. Whereas in dating and inter-sex relations in general, a lot of the respectable opinion, if taken at face value, advises equivalently bad acts of self-sabotage.

Now, a body of advice whose quality is a mixed bag may be on the net either good or bad. If you're given ten tips about driving, nine of which will make you a somewhat better driver but one of which will vastly increase your probability of getting killed in an accident, we'd probably agree that the "some information... (read more)

3lessdazed12y
In the past people have obviously retrospectively looked for academic sources to support PUA ideas. It's instrumentally fine, just a bad habit. Also, it is easy to hint at what is unsaid by saying it would be offensive, and hinting at exactly how offensive it would or wouldn't be. Imagine a map of the world where every feature north of 35 degrees latitude was only described (Canada? Way north, I can't put that on the map, it's not even close! Korea? Look, that's just not the sort of thing that can be boldly painted on the map. I'll sketch a rough outline in pencil, OK?) Such a map would not be misleading.

certain things can not be said due to "decency".

The reason that convention is difficult to use here is that the taking of offense all goes one way. If one says "Because it is mind-killing, I will not speak of the temporal order, quantity, and relative amount of coercion involved in all property dispossessions in the Middle East since 1800," one does not thereby share much about one's opinion.

If one says "Because it is mind killing, I will not discuss the relationship between sexual attractiveness and time for men and women," it may be that one believes that they are the same, or that there isn't a steep fall for anyone, or whatever, and merely doesn't want to provoke people into speaking of a counterargument. But usually not.

Only one side takes offense regarding this issue, so to say that one's opinions are offensive, and especially the degree to which they are, is to reveal them. People are neither motivated to, nor good at, using the same language for "I will not share my opinion because people will take offense," and "I will not share my opinion because the way some people discuss the topic is offensive." In both cases, people take the opportunity to signal and communicate rather than maintain an ambiguous neutral convention to end conversations.

7[anonymous]12y
"Mindkilling" refers to the idea that it is particularly hard (although not impossible) for humans to discuss politically or ideologically controversial subjects without succumbing to bias. The implicit prohibition on "mindkilling" political discussion seems to have worked well here in creating a very civilised discussion forum. On the other hand, you would redefine mindkilling as dissent from the ideological mainstream. This is unwise, because this merely priviliges a certain view of things at the expense of truth-seeking - it enshrines bias, since the ideological mainstream (American?) view of all things cannot be considered true or rational by definition. To merely acknowledge that "indecency" (dissent) is forbidden, so caveat lector does little to counteract the inherent bias of the arrangement, since people are still going to read articles on a rationality forum expecting them to be essentially accurate, which they will not be to the extent that the dissenting view of things is the only fully accurate view. In other words this acknowledgement is hardly going to cancel out the persuasive force of a biased article unless the caveat is written in massive bold letters at the top of every such article "This Is Not True", which is clearly unsatisfactory. In other words the choices are: 1) Allow no discussion of ideologically controversial matters (to minimise mindkilling, but limit the scope of the forum) 2) Your solution, i.e. permit only the mainstream view (also minimising the possibility of mindkilling arguments, but legitimising bias) 3) Anything goes (possibly degrading the civility and in the long term the rationality of the forum) Since the prohibitions are in fact only implicit, luckily there is no need to actually make a choice and some kind of uneasy equilibrium between 2 and 3 can exist (in which dissent is allowed, but is only encouraged in small and perhaps euphemistic doses). But I think this clarifies the point Vladimir_M is making.

I, for one, find obscurantist posts hinting that there are unspoken-because-unpalatable-to-the-mainstream truths to be far more irritating than posts explicitly saying things that I personally find distasteful. The former leaves the dissident view just amorphous enough to be impossible to subject to scrutiny. Given that, even in cases where the mainstream view is wrong, the implied dissident view may also be wrong in some important regard, the obscurantism is highly suboptimal.

I haven't been downvoting for this phenomenon so far, but I'm going to start doing so if it keeps happening.

To whoever is upvoting this, it seems like you must be taking one of the following positions:

  1. It is safe to post any view on LessWrong. Doing so will not get you in trouble, or cause blowups.
  2. It is unsafe to post certain views on LessWrong, but if you hold such a view, you are morally obliged to argue for it and suffer the punishment (possibly at the hands of me or my allies).
  3. It is unsafe to post certain views on LessWrong, and you are allowed not to argue for them, but you are not allowed to suggest that this unsafety has any sort of distorting effect on the resulting discussion.

Could you guys clarify?

I upvoted Prismatic, and I'm taking this position: 4. It may or may not be safe to post certain views on Less Wrong, but whatever they are, I precommit that I will not be part of a blowup over them. If your views are justified, I will update on them, and if they are not, I will calmly state my objections, but I will not punish you for dissent. If other people punish you unfairly for dissent, I will punish them. I would rather you post your dissenting views than hide them, and I will support you for doing so.

If enough of Less Wrong takes this position, eventually position 1. will be correct. I hope to bring about this state of affairs.

9Prismattic12y
I always appreciate when someone else comes along and explains my position better than I did, so thanks.

Isn't is possible that Prismattic's comment could be receiving so many upvotes because other people also find comments of the sort described irritating and are embracing the opportunity to signal that irritation? Like Prismattic, I don't generally downvote comments on this basis alone. But I'm definitely tired of seeing the types of comments described, especially in those instances when, at least to my eyes, the commenters seem to be affecting a certain world-weary sorrow and wisdom while hinting at the profound truths that could be freely discussed but for -alas!- the terrible tyranny of modern social norms. But because the commenters are hiding the exact substance of their own views, there's no basis on which to judge whether these views are, as Prismattic suggests, actually more correct than the mainstream view, or perhaps equally or even more wrong in some different direction.

7steven046112y
If what's suggested is "You guys would punish me for stating my arguments, therefore I win the debate", I agree that's unreasonable. If what's suggested is "You guys would punish me for stating my arguments, therefore no real debate has taken place", I think that's far more reasonable.
8Wei Dai12y
Why not publish the "unsafe" arguments under a pseudonym (or an alternate pseudonym if your main identity is already a pseudonym)?
8steven046112y
To do so consistently and stay safe, you'd need to take the unusual or otherwise identifiable parts of your set of concepts, favorite examples, verbal quirks, patterns of reasoning, and so on, and split everything into two: one part for use under your true identity, and one part for pseudonymous use. Even then, each of your novel ideas could taint each of your other novel ideas. There would also still be the harm to LessWrong's reputation as a whole. And what would it accomplish? It's notoriously hard to get people to change their minds on these topics, even here, and if you do there's no clear causal path from that to better long-term future outcomes. I'd rather just collectively give up.
7Wei Dai12y
I do wonder why Luke puts so much effort into writing about romantic relationships, given all the other things on his to do list. Perhaps he wants to demonstrate that rationality has big concrete, immediate benefits, as a way to help expand our community? I think that's unlikely, unless someone who wants to see it happen makes a big push for it (e.g., get Eliezer to declare it a rule, or write a really convincing top-level post arguing for it and build the necessary consensus). My suggestion was made under the assumption of the current status quo.
7Vladimir_M12y
I second this question.
5dlthomas12y
Trying to put words to my own intuitions on the matter, I would stipulate a modified 3: It may be unsafe (in terms of image/status/etc - I would certainly expect and hope not physically) to express certain views, particularly those sufficiently far from both societal mainstream and LW mainstream, and particularly those that touch too heavily on mind-killing topics. It is reasonably within norms to acknowledge this, particularly with an eye to reducing its effect. What is decidedly a violation of norms, I think, is to do so in a self-serving manner. "Norms forbid honest discussion of my pet issue X, therefor X" is obviously flawed. "Norms forbid discussion of my pet issue X, and I have strong evidence for X but can't share it because of those norms, so just trust me that X" amounts to the same thing, in terms of what kinds of discussions are possible. It is also, to some degree, inconsistent - it is unlikely that we forbid evidence for a proposition while allowing discussion otherwise implying/assuming it.
9[anonymous]12y
Yes, why should the heretic have the right to remain silent! If he speaks truth the good doctors of the holy mother church will surely update their theological arguments accordingly and if not, well why is he risking his immortal soul by relying only on his feeble and fallible mind?
9Vladimir_M12y
So you prefer the situation in which a dubious mainstream view remains entirely unchallenged to a situation where a doubter, instead of remaining silent, states that it is likely wrong but that spelling out an explicit argument why it is so would violate social norms? As far as I see, the information made available in the second case is a proper superset of the information available in the former. So how can this constitute "obscurantism" in any reasonable sense of the term?

I'd prefer social norms be violated. Asserting that a proposition is wrong without explaining why one has reached that conclusion or presenting an alternative is not a behavior that is generally viewed as beneficial in any other context on Lesswrong.

ETA: I also see the widespread use on Lesswrong of "politically correct" as an attribution that prima facie proves something is wrong to be problematic. Society functions on polite fictions, but that does not mean that everything that is polite is inherently false.

I'd prefer social norms be violated.

Do you upvote people that do?

I have mostly grown tired of making comments where I mention a contrarian position. I get asked to explain myself; it sometimes leads to an argument, and I put a lot of work into comments that often end up at negative karma. I suspect those threads add to LW, but the feedback I'm getting is that they don't.

8pedanterrific12y
I'll understand if you refuse, but... would you mind terribly saving me the work of searching for an example of what you're talking about? Cause, see, if I'm right about what you're referring to (something I'm not sure of, hence the question) I generally do upvote things like that. Also I've only been here, like, two months, so if you have some kind of reputation I'm not aware of it.
6Vaniver12y
The most recent example would be my comment that everyone becoming bisexual might lead to a net social loss, although the karma scores have gone up since that discussion happened (and so maybe I just need to wait before updating on the karma of contrarian comments). I spent way too long looking through other comments I've made, and only really came across this example. I suspect this was misapplying discontent caused by other arguments. I had already noticed a while back that when I made a sloppy comment it would often get downvoted, although I would be able to make up the karma by explaining myself downthread. The only other significant example I can think of was in a thread about infanticide where I accidentally implied that I could be for the criminalization of abortion, and that comment got kicked down to -3 karma, with +1 karma from my following comments. (It's hard to decide how that whole thread contributes to this question, because the person who said "well, I can't say this many places, but I'm in favor of infanticide" got upvoted to 41 karma. That suggests to me their position isn't contrarian locally, but I suspect it is contrarian globally.)
5thomblake12y
In general, it's been observed that a comment on a controversial topic will be downvoted heavily in a quick flurry but then usually recovers; high-quality such comments tend to end up significantly positive.
3wedrifid12y
And now I have seen it observed by someone who isn't me. Good to hear external confirmation! :)
7thomblake12y
Careful - if you've stated it out loud, the observation noted above might be your own.
2thomblake12y
By the way, +1 for noting the tension between "Is that your true rejection" and "Policy debates should not appear one-sided".

I'd prefer social norms be violated.

It sounds, then, as though you should be talking to the people punishing norm violations, not to the people responding rationally to such punishment.

I'd prefer social norms be violated. Asserting that a proposition is wrong without explaining why one has reached that conclusion or presenting an alternative is not a behavior that is generally viewed as beneficial in any other context on Lesswrong.

This does not answer my question. You claim that a situation in which information X and Y is made available constitutes "obscurantism" relative to the situation where only information X is provided. Now you say that you would prefer that not just X and Y, but also information Z be provided. That's fair enough, but it doesn't explain why (X and Y) is worse than just (X), if (X and Y and Z) is better than just (X and Y). What is this definition of "obscurantism," according to which the level of obscurantism can rise with the amount of information about one's beliefs that one makes available?

I still consider myself relatively new here, only been around for a year -- but in that year I haven't seen any actual fact presented in LessWrong that's enflamed spirits one tenth as much as the obscure half-hints by trolls like sam and his "I can't say things, because you politically correct morons will downvote me into oblivion, but be sure that my arguments would be crushing, if I was allowed to make them, which I'm not, therefore I'm not making them" style of debate.

The "obscurantism" that Prismatic is talking about isn't yet as bad as that, but it has that same flavour, to a lesser degree. This sort of thing is... annoying -- hinting at evidence, but refusing to provide it -- and blaming this obscurity at the hypothetical actions by people who haven't actually done them yet.

If the issue is e.g. whether science seems to indicate that the statistical distribution of physical and intellectual characteristic isn't identical across racially-defined subgroups of the human race, or across genders, or across whatever, then it can be discussed politely, if the participants actually seek a polite discussion, instead of just finding the most insulting way possible t... (read more)

If the topic can't be discussed, then don't discuss it or hint at it at all.

You are presenting the situation as if such hints were coming out of the blue in discussions of unrelated topics. In reality, however, I have seen (or given) such hints only in situations where a problematic topic has already been opened and discussed by others. In such situations, the commenter giving the hint is faced with a very unpleasant choice, where each option has very serious downsides. It seems to me that the optimal choice in some situations is to announce clearly that the topic is in fact deeply problematic, and there is no way to have a no-holds-barred rational discussion about it that wouldn't offend some sensibilities. (And thus even if it doesn't break down the discourse here, it would make the forum look bad to the outside world.)

At the very least, this can have the beneficial effect of lowering people's confidence in the biased conclusions of the existing discussion, thus making their beliefs more accurate, even in a purely reactive way. However, you seem to deny that this choice could ever be optimal. Yet I really don't see how you can write off the possibility that both alternatives ... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y140

(And thus even if it doesn't break down the discourse here, it would make the forum look bad to the outside world.)

This.

I really really don't want such discussion to be very prominent, because they attract the wrong contrarian cluster. But I don't want LW loosing ground rationality wise with debates that are based on some silly premises, especially ones that are continually reinforced by new arrivals and happy death spirals!

Attracting the wrong people, and alienating some of the "right" people is a bigger concern to me than the reputation of the site as a whole (though that counts too). Another concern is that hot-button issues might eat up the conversations and get too important (they are not issues I care that much about debating here).

The current compromise of avoiding some hot-button issue, and having some controversial things buried in comment threads or couched in indirect academese seems reasonable enough to me.

[-][anonymous]12y160

I agree with this. But I wish to emphasise:

The current compromise of avoiding some hot-button issue, and having some controversial things buried in comment threads or couched in indirect academese seems reasonable enough to me.

Some of us look at the state of LW and fear that punishment of this appropriate behaviour is slowly escalating, while evaporative cooling is eliminating the rewards.

Some of us look at the state of LW and fear that punishment of this appropriate behaviour is slowly escalating, while evaporative cooling is eliminating the rewards.

I concur with this diagnosis -- and I would add that the process has already led to some huge happy death spirals of a sort that would not be allowed to develop, say, a year an a half ago when I first started commenting here. In some cases, the situation has become so bad that attacking these death spirals head-on is no longer feasible without looking like a quarrelsome and disruptive troll.

8Swimmer963 (Miranda Dixon-Luinenburg) 11y
Could you give some examples? I don't like the thought of my brain being happy-death-spiralled without my noticing. I promise to upvote your comment even if it makes me angry.
3Multiheaded11y
(Eh, he's been inactive for the last three months anyway.)
8[anonymous]12y
Sam dosen't do that. Sam trolls by stating his opinions fully. He then refuses to provide evidence. Race differences have already been explicitly discussed with little problem, if not prominently so, do a search. Gender, sexuality and sexual norms are the great unPC problem of LessWrong. Dishonest generalization, find two posters in addition to Sam who do this. I will wait. Now contrast this to the average (even average anon double log in account) pro-hereditarian LW-er who brings up such points. There are far more Quirrells than Sams here, and Sams get heavily downvoted except on the rare occasions they make more reasonable posts (though the particular poster has probably burned out some people's patience and will get downvoted no matter what he says because he has consistently demonstrated an unwillingness to adapt to our norms). This is quickly devolving into the worst kind of politicking one finds on otherwise intelligent forums. But it is other people who keep dragging them up and discussing them. Politely stating that you disagree and they are wrong, getting then heavily up voted (which indicates a significant if far from majority fraction of LWers agree with the comment) is surely better than not interrupting what you see as a happy death spiral? Have we been visiting the same forum? I have often up-voted your responses to Sam0345's posts, indeed you nearly always successfully rebuke him. But I think your extensive interactions with him may be leading you to mistake an individual for a group.
6ArisKatsaris12y
I've decided to bow out of this thread -- as I've not significantly studied either PUA, nor cared to read about previous PUA-related threads in LessWrong, I can barely understand what you're talking about. Perhaps you've noticed a real problem that I haven't, exactly because you're focusing on different type of threads than I do. The thing I had in mind was things like e.g. the guy who repeatedly and deliberately kept using the diminutive word "girls" to refer to female rationalists but "men" to refer to the male counterparts. This by itself -- when I perceived he intended to belittle women in this fashion, or at least didn't give a damn about not insulting them -- prevented any meaningful discussion of the actual argument he was engaged in, (whether a male-only meetup would be useful or detrimental for the purposes of LessWrong).
5[anonymous]12y
He really shouldn't have done that.
4[anonymous]12y
OB and early LW consistently blew up whenever PUA and related issues where discussed.
4Nisan12y
I appreciate your point here, but you could have chosen a better example. Those two questions have the same capacity for offensiveness. They have the same content and are compatible with the same presuppositions and connotations. They just use different language. Now perhaps there are people who, upon seeing "women suck at math", read "boo women!", and upon seeing words like "causal" and "Y chromosome", think about causes and effects. So if you're talking to one of those people, you'll want to use the fancier language. But not everyone is like that. I care about this because I want to be able to talk about why so few of my mathematician colleagues are female, and why they feel so weird about it, and what can be done about it, without gratuitously offending people.

Those two questions have the same capacity for offensiveness. They have the same content and are compatible with the same presuppositions and connotations. They just use different language.

I am really curious how you can demonstrate equivalence between a question that follows the pattern "Why is (X) the case?" and a question that follows the pattern "Is (Y) the case?" -- even if (Y) is arguably equivalent to (X), only phrased in more polite language.

As far as I see, the first one asks for the explanation of something that is presumed to be an established fact, while the second one expresses uncertainty about whether (arguably) the same fact is true. How on Earth can these two be said to have "the same content" and be "compatible with the same presuppositions"?

However, you are quite right that these two questions have the same potential for offensiveness, in that outside a few quirky places like LW, neither the polite phrasing nor the expression of uncertainty will get you off the hook, contrary to what Aris Katsaris seems to believe.

8Nisan12y
Ah, I see, you're right; the content of the two questions are different. I noticed there was a substantial difference in language, and assumed that was the point of the example.
[-][anonymous]12y130

Those two questions have the same capacity for offensiveness.

Surely that's a hyperbole. Now, I know lots of people would be offended by both questions, but I doubt most people would be equally offended by both, and plenty of people would be offended by one but not the other. As a woman who doesn't suck at math, I am down to discuss the first question, but the second one makes me want to slap you.

(Of course, by declaring myself a woman who doesn't suck at math, I have already proven my own nonexistence, so my opinion can, no doubt, safely be ignored.;) )

As a woman who doesn't suck at math, I am down to discuss the first question, but the second one makes me want to slap you.

Is it ok to threaten (or declare the desire to do) physical violence upon someone if you don't get your way simply because you are a woman? Careful which stereotypes you support. You don't usually get "heh. Female violence is harmless and cute!" without a whole lot of paternalism bundled in.

2dlthomas12y
Slaps, generally, are relatively harmless. Unfulfilled desires to slap, even more so.
6NancyLebovitz12y
On the other hand, hasn't there been some discussion of the idea that you have to believe something, however briefly, to understand it? Even though expressing a desire to slap has no macro bodily effect [1], it still has an emotional effect which is going to affect how a conversation goes, however slightly. [2] [1] Tentative phrasing used to respect the idea that everything is physical, including thoughts and emotions, but that some things affect people physically more than others. [2] I believe that "just ignore it" leaves out that ignoring things is work.

That's uncalled-for. I am not asking either question. It's okay if you're offended by one but not the other.

Again, I care about this because I want to be able to talk about why so few of my colleagues are female, and why they feel so weird about it, and what can be done about it — without gratuitously offending people.

6ArisKatsaris12y
Same capacity for offensiveness, perhaps -- in that some overly defensive people will surely choose to feel attacked ("be offended") just as much by either question. But same average offensiveness? I seriously doubt it. Signalling is important. "Offensiveness" functions by signalling you an enemy. If you signal strongly enough that your question is about a desire to understand neurobiological causes of a statistical phenomenon, not about an attempt to attack groups of people, fewer people will feel attacked. Now some people will surely argue that people just "ought grow tougher skins" instead. But that's an "ought"-argument, and I'm referring to an "is"-question, which choice of words and sentences leads to a better discussion.
4Prismattic12y
Those questions are not remotely equivalent. I suppose as a second order implication, if you assume that the average man is not very good at math, you could also assume that the average women is really not very good at math, but obviously both the male and female distributions have people above their respective means. In any case, "Why and how do women suck at math" sounds to me like "Why do all women suck at math," not like "Why does the average woman suck at math," even if the latter question was based on an accurate presupposition.
4Prismattic12y
What am referring to as obscurantism are (usually implied) claims that "I possess information that refutes a mainstream view, but I'm not going to share it, because most people can't handle the truth in a nonmindkilling fashion." cf. Wikipedia
9Vladimir_M12y
That's not necessarily the claim (explicit or implied). It can also be that even if the information were to be handled in a non-mind-killing fashion, the resulting conclusions would be beyond the pale of what is acceptable under the current social norms. As for the definition of obscurantism you gave, this is definitely not obscurantism under (1), since it withholds less information to the public than if one remains completely silent. As for (2), it doesn't involve abstruseness, deliberate or not, since the claim is in fact very simple (as e.g. spelled out above). The most you can say is that it involves deliberate vagueness, but even there, the purpose of the vagueness is not to mislead, confuse, or perform some rhetorical legerdemain, but merely to hand out a limited but perfectly clear piece of information.
9RomanDavis12y
It'd be interesting to see some sort of dumping ground of allegedly useful, but socially unacceptable ideas, which may or may not be true, and then have a group of people discuss and test them. Doesn't seem completely outside the territority of lesswrong, but if you think these subjects are that hazardous, and that lesswrong is too useful to be risked, then a different site that did something along those lines is something I'd like to see.
[-][anonymous]12y140

A invitation based mailing list of a group of high karma non-ideological LWers seems the better route.

A site devoted to discussing impolite but probable ideas will well... disappoint very quickly. Have you ever seen the comment section of a major news site?

9Nick_Tarleton12y
A non-archived mailing list, I think, to greatly reduce the potential cost of adding new members.
5Vladimir_M12y
Trouble is, everything transported over the internet is archived one way or another. That is actually the main reason why I've been reluctant to push forward with this initiative lately.
8wedrifid12y
Everything? I don't believe that. I am highly confident that I have transported plenty of things over the internet that were never archived and could not have been archived without my knowledge. Unless someone is a whole lot better with large primes than I believe possible.
6Vladimir_M12y
Yes, of course, it's not literally true. But working under that assumption is a useful heuristic for avoiding all sorts of trouble, unless you have very detailed and reliable technical knowledge of what exactly is going on under the hood.
7Bugmaster12y
I agree with you completely regarding privacy. If you feel that you must absolutely prevent some piece of information from leaking out into the world for all to see, you must treat every communication medium -- and the Internet specifically -- as insecure. The world is littered with dead political careers of people who did not heed this warning. That said though (to paraphrase the old adage), are we rationalists or are we mice ? If you hold some beliefs that can get you burned at the stake (figuratively speaking... hopefully...), then isn't it all the more important to determine if these beliefs are true ? And how are you going to do that all by yourself, with no one to critique your ideas and to expose your biases ?
3[anonymous]12y
This is just a quibble because I don't disagree with your conclusion, but the traffic could conceivably be archived in its encrypted state for decryption later.
1wedrifid12y
Yes, I theoretically have to consider how good people from the distant future who particularly want to know what I said now are at playing with large primes. Because there is always the possibility that a man in the middle is saving the encrypted data stream just in case it becomes possible to decipher in the future.
5Nick_Tarleton12y
Do you mean in users' inboxes, or something else?
6Vladimir_M12y
Yes, in this case the inboxes would be the obvious problem, but there might be others too, depending on the implementation. In any case, I don't think it would be possible to assume lack of permanent record, the way it would be possible with non-recorded private conversation.
8Normal_Anomaly12y
I support this proposal and would like to join the mailing list if one becomes available. But why do you think a mailing list would fare better than a website? Because of restricted access?
6pedanterrific12y
I guess it has more of a "secret society" vibe to it. Oooh, ooh, can we call it the Political Conspiracy? Is 1100 enough karma? I've tried to stay out of ideological debates, but I don't know precisely what the criteria would be. (And who would decide, anyway?)

I guess it has more of a "secret society" vibe to it.

Yes, that's another way in which it just doesn't look like a good idea. When you're organizing people in a way that has a secret society vibe, chances are you're doing something either really childish or really dangerous.

[-][anonymous]12y110

Come now LWers don't make more of this proposal than there is.

I didn't perceive a secret society vibe at all in what amounts to a bunch of people having a topic restricted private correspondence.

Everyone has some email correspondences he wouldn't be comfortable posting in public. Private correspondences as well as physical meetings restricted to friends or colleagues have been a staple of intellectual life for centuries and are nothing to be a priori discouraged. In effect nearly every LW meet up is a private affair, since people don't seem to be recording them. Privacy matters in order to preserve the signal to noise ration (technical mailing lists) and so that people feel more comfortable saying things that can be taken out of context as well as be somewhat protected from ideological or religious persecution.

Also quite frankly lots of the people in such a mailing list have probably written on such ideas in some digital format or another before, either corresponding with friends, commenting in a shady on-line community or just writing out some notes for their own use.

Everyone has some email correspondences he wouldn't be comfortable posting in public.

Yes, but having semi-public statements on the record is a very different situation, where the set of people who may get to see them is open-ended.

This thread certainly hasn't made me more optimistic. Observe that even though I have made the utmost effort to avoid making any concrete controversial statements, there is already a poster -- and a decently upvoted LW poster, not some random individual -- who has confabulated that I have made such statements about an extremely charged topic ("openly," at that), and is presently conducting a subthread under this premise. Makes you think twice on what may happen if you are actually on the record for having made such statements.

7Emile12y
The comment sections on iSteve and Roissy are not great places either.

In the period roughly from 2006 until 2009, there was a flourishing scene of a number of loosely connected contrarian blogs with excellent comment sections. This includes the early years of Roissy's blog. (Curiously, the golden age of Overcoming Bias also occurred within this time period, although I don't count it as a part of this scene.)

All of these blogs, however, have shut down or gone completely downhill since then (or, at best, become nearly abandoned), and I can't think of anything remotely comparable nowadays. I can also only speculate on what lucky confluence led to their brief flourishing and whether all such places on the internet are doomed to a fairly quick decay and disintegration. I can certainly think of some plausible reasons why this might be so.

I'm inclined to think that unusual goodness in social groups is very fragile, partly because it takes people being unhabitual so that there's freshness to the interactions.

I can believe that this is more fragile online than in person-- a happy family has more incentives and more kinds of interaction to help maintain itself.

2HughRistik12y
As a contrasting data point, my contrarian group blog started during that time, and we are still going, with more readers than ever. Apparently there is a niche for people who are interested in mostly dry, slightly polemical, relatively rigorous discussion of gender politics.
4Eugine_Nier12y
I've looked at your blog. You seem to be spending a lot of effort to bend over backwards to PC orthodoxy, the "No Hostility" threads being the most blatant examples of this. Also, your posts also have an almost apologetic undertone, as if you believe you need to apologize to feminists for criticizing them.
6lessdazed12y
From I Don't Know: If I'm dealing with someone who doesn't think politics, the mind killer, requires an effort towards calm and careful thought, and has beliefs primarily as attire rather than anticipation controllers, and who doesn't understand that policy debates should not be one sided, and who is dealing with non-allied interlocutors by assuming they are innately evil and pattern matching them to evil groups with heavily motivated cognition, and sometimes reasons that enemies are innately evil in violation of conservation of evidence, and sees a negative halo around any concept within shooting distance of the point I am trying to make, and doesn't strive to think non-cached thoughts, then the truth is that I automatically know s/he's wrong. The truth is not enough; if one were to use the words that best represent these ideas to one's self, a significant portion of the audience would believe things less aligned with truth than they do after one does one's best to accommodate their thought patterns, as the blog is now.
5Eugine_Nier12y
Agreed, one must be careful when dealing with non-rationalists. However, Vladimir_M was talking about blogs where people who were already sufficiently rational not to get mind-killed by the topic got together in an attempt to find the truth, as opposed to blogs like HughRistik's that focus more on appealing to people who aren't yet rational.
2thomblake12y
There's a hypothesis I've seen tossed around that good blogs during that period existed because lots of people were blogging, and fewer people are blogging now because of microblogging. I haven't seen whether the relevant facts cited there are even true, and I can't find a reference to the hypothesis.

My own pet hypothesis is that after blogs became a popular and mainstream phenomenon sometime around the early-to-mid-oughts, there was a huge outburst of enthusiasm by a lot of smart contrarians with interesting ideas, who though this would be a new medium capable of breaking the monopoly on significant and respectable public discourse held by the mainstream media and academia. This enthusiasm was naive and misguided for a number of reasons that now seem obvious in retrospect, and faced with reality it petered out fairly quickly. But while it lasted, it resulted in some very interesting output.

5[anonymous]12y
Indeed, that's my point.
5steven046112y
This was previously discussed here. Right now, it's sounding like whatever (if anything) comes out of this will fail by being overly inclusive. My guess is that if this sort of thing ends up working well, it will be because some small group of people who happen to have good taste end up making decisions on a "trust me" basis, rather than because LessWrong as a community successfully applies some attempt at a transparently fair algorithm.
6Anatoly_Vorobey12y
Your question rests on an assumption that obscurantism must decrease information, but I see that assumption as incorrect. In fact, under this assumption I should never regard anything said to me as obscurantist, as it should never decrease the amount of information available to me. Wikipedia defines "obscurantism" as "the practice of deliberately preventing the facts or the full details of some matter from becoming known", and it seems to fit the bill. Of course, it may be useful or beneficial species of obscurantism, though I agree with Prismatic that it is not. The situation as you describe it seems pre-biased by postulating that the mainstream view is dubious. This may be obvious to you, but to me, the person who's faced with the "hints" as described, it is not - if it were, I shouldn't need the hints to begin with. I think it's incorrect to condition on the dubiousness of the mainstream view. If I am to decide on how to best to take into account hints of that nature, the possibility that the mainstream view is correct after all, and the hint entirely specious, should not be disregarded. In fact, in real-life situations where such hints are offered, this may be the more frequent scenario. The hint that says "this view is incorrect, but I will not explain why, for doing that will violate a social norm" is annoying and distracting; it engages my attention, bringing no real evidence for its claims. Because it posits a mystery, I'm likely to err on the side of giving it more attention than it deserves. The benefit is that it may cause me to investigate the view more thoroughly than I would otherwise have, and realize it is incorrect. If I precommit to ignoring such signals, I will miss some chances of that, and I will also avoid giving my attention, and more closely investigating, all those views that are correct after all, and where the signal was specious. The bargain may well be worth it.
4Vladimir_M12y
What makes obscurantism a relevant category is that certain ways of withholding information and intentional abstruseness can be very effective for misleading people and producing convictions without evidence. In LW parlance, it is a particular kind of Dark Arts. Now, of course, it makes no sense to debate definitions when there is a true disagreement about them, but I think it shouldn't be controversial to insist that the normal meaning of "obscurantism" involves this Dark Arts element. In other words, it involves withholding information with the intent to mislead and produce mistaken or unsubstantiated beliefs, and it cannot be applied to every act of withholding information intentionally. I do think the Wikipedia definition you quoted is unreasonably overbroad, considering the standard usage of the word. It would cover all sorts of completely honest, reasonable, and non-misleading acts of communication where one chooses to limit the amount of information given -- for example, saying that you got a new job but not disclosing the salary, or writing blog comments under a pseudonym. It is not true that it brings no significant evidence, if the source of the hint is someone about whom you have other information -- and information about the intellectual abilities, knowledge, and likely biases of frequent commenters is easy to get in a forum like this one (if you don't in fact have it already). And you can always simply ignore such hits if you believe you have insufficient information, or you don't feel like looking for it, the way you presumably ignore any other comments that are not of interest to you. Also, I note that your complaint here doesn't state that these hits are misleading and apt to trigger biases leading to incorrect beliefs, so you must indeed be working with the broadest possible (and I would say overbroad) definition of "obscurantism." It may indeed -- but why precommit unconditionally, without considering the source of these signals?
8wedrifid12y
Not technically true. It is possible to make a perfectly rational mind produce worse predictions about the world by providing it with selected information. This relies on it having insufficient information about your obscuring tendencies or motives. The new probabilities that the rational agent has will necessarily be a subjectively objective improvement but can still produce worse predictions of the relevant aspects of the world in an objective sense.
7Vladimir_M12y
You're right, of course. I edited away that part, which is not relevant for the main point anyway.
5[anonymous]12y
What is obscurantist exactly? What I said is perfectly clear, if you look at the context of the two preceding posts. No particular claim about male-female relations was intended (although if you want to know I endorse Roissy's view of male-female relations, if not his value-set); I was objecting to the idea that "mindkilling" should be redefined as "saying things likely to offend mainstream sensibilities". Mindkilling refers to the effect of political content on human reasoning powers in general, and the suggested redefinition struck me as Orwellian.
2Prismattic12y
It is not your post that I think is obscurantist. I was commenting on the undesirability of posts that presuppose option 2 has been selected and proceed to imply that the mainstream view is false without actually making explict what alternative is being proposed. I think the alpha-beta classification is excessively reductive. I would say that I am fairly physically intimidating to a majority of other males, but this doesn't translate into automatic adoration by nearby females.
7[anonymous]12y
An acknowledgement that something can't be said because of decency implies that practical and true things could be said in the absence of decency. This is indeed a real concern. But I would say that a sentence like : Would have a positive effect on Lesswrong.
[-][anonymous]12y320

this is the closest I can go without touching mindkillers

The point I was making is that "mindkillers", under its original definition, refers to political content in general. If someone writes about male-female relations and excludes "politically offensive" material, this does not mean that their article has no political content. It just means that it is the mainstream political line!

In the Soviet Union, Mendelism might have been considered indecent. On the Soviet rationalist forum, Lysenkoist articles might have a caveat attached that political indecency is omitted. Nonetheless it is hardly fair to say that the Mendelism is a mindkiller and Lysenkoism is not in this context - the label "mindkilling" properly applies to the subject of heredity in general, given that it is politically controversial in this scenario.

Likewise if there is political sensitivity involved in the subject of male-female relations, then the subject in general is a mindkiller. The mainstream line is no less "mindkilling" than the dissenting position - it just happens to enjoy hegemony.

The distinction is that mindkilling argument can be avoided if dissent from the mai... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y140

mindkilling is a property of ideologically controversial subjects in general.

Ah I finally clearly see your objection now. I misused the term "mindkiller" in a way that suggested that the "indecent" explanation was the mindkilling one rather than the field or subject itself.

If mindkilling is subtly redefined to mean dissent, people might grow to believe that it is dissent that is the mindkiller, not subjects of political controversy in general, and they should therefore steer clear of it.

Indeed something like this could happen if people where not careful with the usage.

Yes you are right, a different formulation needs to be found otherwise my arguments for why such a situation might be better than pure taboo is mostly invalid in the long run.

I wanted something like: "This is as far as I will go in this contribution on the subject on LessWrong for the sake of the community, but it is by no means the full rationalist approach, if anyone wants to discuss this in private or research it on their own and I would in fact encourage this/there is nothing wrong with that. This subject is pretty mindkilling and so these precautions are needed."

5sam034512y
Many modern PC beliefs about women first showed up in Victorian times, which beliefs were I to mention them would be get me as down voted now as much as they would get a Victorian gentlemen in trouble. Before Victorian times, pretty much everyone agreed with the position taken by Chateau Heartiste - that the alarmingly powerful, reckless, irresponsible, and immoral sexual urges of women, unless restrained, would destroy civilization.
[-][anonymous]12y260

Many modern PC beliefs about women first showed up in Victorian times, which beliefs were I to mention them would be get me as down voted now as much as they would get a Victorian gentlemen in trouble.

Women's motives are generally purer than men's. Women are much more often good mothers than men are good fathers. Women are nearly always more interested in committed relationships than just sex with the most attractive male. Women should be held much less accountable for their criminal and unscrupulous actions than men. Women are always the victims never the abusers. Women do not lie about rape. Women are overwhelmingly sexually attracted to virtuous men (noticeable echo's of Calvinism in this). A woman's complaints and grievances are generally reasonable, while a man's are generally not. Women's sexual instincts are benign to society while men's sexual instincts are malign. Women are more altruistic and fair than men. ect.

Most of this is obviously bunk and most of this is also obviously implicitly accepted though it may be denied.

And Sam, I don't think I will get down voted for stating this.

8[anonymous]12y
In practice however if I wasn't very careful when challenging a argument that implicitly rested on two or more of the above as an axiom I might get down voted on LW (but less so than many other places).
2lessdazed12y
That follows the pattern of a clever way of phrasing arguments such that they can be interpreted as either tautologies or meaning something stupid. It's more insidious than just unambiguously stupid arguments.
4RomanDavis12y
A solution might be to make a sort of subforum for mindkilling topics, and associating them with some karma cost. Doesn't eliminate the mindkilling aspect, but hopefully makes it so that people with low karmas are kept out, which is hopefully correlated with some minimal rational ability. Or maybe not. Holding off on that sort of thing is sometimes a good idea.

Yes, "lynch" is hyperbole, probably unnecessary ("vilified" seems a bit weak. You might want to tell off these websites for incorrect use of the term "lynching").

You spend a lot of time addressing the issue of Race and IQ; I am mostly concerned of how Stephanie Grace was treated for what was a quite reasonable private email. In an ancestor comment you wrote:

Then, in an environment dominated numerically by similar people, they find it similarly plausible to think that if they voice a belief that is uncharitable towards, or does not reflect well upon, some social minority or other, they will be...well, it's not clear what. Censored? Hunted down and sued? I'm not sure what they're really afraid of, but they're angry about the idea that it might happen to them.

To me, it's very clear "what": what happened to Stephanie Grace. It's unlikely, but a small chance of having your career ruined is not a risk most people are willing to take. Those chances increase if one of the people involved becomes somewhat famous, or if some well meaning anti-racist (or other) activist takes interest in the discussion. Nobody wants a Google search of their name return a hate page on the first page of results.

What surprises me the most is that you find this unclear, that you don't understand how that can be a concern for somebody.

To me, it's very clear "what": what happened to Stephanie Grace.

Some people she didn't know said she was a bad person, and then her life went on. She got the job she was intending to get, and hardly anyone will remember the 'scandal'.

Recent story mentioning her

3MadDrNesbit12y
Interesting, thanks; I had briefly googled for that kind of info but hadn't found any. She is probably somewhat helped by having a pretty common name and surname, but I'm still updating my estimate of "negative consequences for being target of a hate campaign" downwards a bit.
2wedrifid12y
Is a word missing there? 'scandal'?

Yes - "her hamster" is an interesting way of saying "women aren't rational, they just rationalise everything away".

it's an unfalsifiable proposition. Have you had a look at the list of things that he says women say? Yep - they could indeed be rationalisations... or they could in fact be the truth... how can you tell the difference? well - you can't. That's because this, as I said, is a fully-general counterargument.

No matter what his (as he says) "screechy feminist kvetches" about... he can just say "that's just a rationalisation" and not think any further or take it into account. he never has to update on anything a woman says to him ever. Also, i note that he seem to think that female rationalisation is a totally different species to male rationalisation... and doesn't even mention instances of the latter.

As to "boners don't lie" - this is demonstrably untrue any time somebody is turned on by a picture. There are no doubt objective criteria which have high correlation with the average male's likely attraction to a woman. Studies into facial symmetry, smooth complexion etc etc have clearly shown this. yes, you can compare averag... (read more)

2[anonymous]12y
Yes he is saying that. About as sound as the argument you characterised.
2taryneast12y
Thanks for letting me rant about it a bit :)

Again, where did I say that it was "gross"?

I said it would make it harder for the woman to get dates with men, but is that really in doubt? Do you need me to find statistics showing that (American) men in general rate women who don't shave their legs as less attractive? And I was using it as an example of something that shouldn't matter, but does.

You don't get to say that because 90% of people who used it in the context you did would be using it seriously, and because accusing someone of being a bad person for being sexist is more of a trigger point than accusing someone of having a bad debate.

9dlthomas12y
When you give a list of three attributes, people tend assume the salient features are common for all three or different for all three. The attributes you gave were obese, poor hygiene, and unshaved. Two of these, obese and poor hygiene, are problematic for reasons other than simple lack of social acceptance, and people thus feel more confident calling them "gross" - for which they were also primed by your use of the term in it's other sense. As I see it: no, you didn't say it, but I completely understand why they heard it.
3MixedNuts12y
Uh. Okay. I guess I far underestimated the proportion of people who would seriously call you a bad person on LW. My bad.
3wedrifid12y
For what it is worth I appreciated the tongue in cheek nature of your call and only object to the 'being wrong about what what Yvain said' part, not the 'bad' part. I can't help you in finding an explanation on how you managed to get to -4. Perhaps you could edit that one part out and see if you get back up to 0? People often seem to approve of retraction-edits.

How does your original description not cover the Stephanie Grace case?

Then, in an environment dominated numerically by similar people, they find it similarly plausible to think that if they voice a belief that is uncharitable towards, or does not reflect well upon, some social minority or other, they will be...well, it's not clear what. Censored? Hunted down and sued? I'm not sure what they're really afraid of, but they're angry about the idea that it might happen to them.

It's clear to me that Stephanie Grace should have been aware that even if in her environment people think like her, voicing a belief that doesn't reflect well upon blacks is dangerous. No, she won't be censored or sued, but her prospects will take a sharp turn downwards. She should have been afraid, and maybe angry about what might happen to her if she dared speak honestly, even in a private email.

And yet, you seem to think that she had nothing to be afraid of, and that her being afraid or angry would have been kind of silly and stupid on her behalf (or at least, that's the impression I get from the way you write).

(Note that I'm not saying this is the main reason sensitive topics should be avoided on LessWrong. There are better reasons to avoid those topics.)

Eh? That term means "cat" to me.

EDIT: In fact, wedrifid's meaning has a different etymology from either yours or mine.

5Prismattic12y
Terms meaning cat have been slang for the female genitalia in more than one language, or so The Great Cat Massacre claims about "le chatte" in French, at any rate..
5JoshuaZ12y
Huh. Interesting. I did not realize what the etymology of that word was. The fact that it is used almost exclusively to target males rather than females suggests that there's been some etymological bleed over.
9Oligopsony12y
And at no niggardly pace, either.
6dlthomas12y
While I don't doubt that there has been some bleed over, I am not sure this is actually suggestive of it; typical gender roles would have "pampered" or "soft" also be seen as more negative when directed at a male, and I don't think there is any related bleeding going on there.
2wedrifid12y
Thanks, I wasn't aware of the origins of, well, any of the various usages for that word.

Not to speak for lessdazed, but what I understood them to be saying is that when I argue against a proposition P solely by pointing to the consequences of believing P, I am implicitly asserting the truth of P. I would agree with that.

I would say further that it's best not to implicitly assert the truth of false propositions, given a choice.

It follows that it's better for me to say "P is false, and also has bad consequences" than to say "P has bad consequences."

NOT discussing the moral implications here, but I saw this study and found it relevant. One of the arguments re: PUA is that there have been no scientific studies as to whether it works or not. Apparently, that isnt true. Here is a link to an article about a study that shows that a light non-sexual touch (what the PUA folks would call "kino") ups the chances that a woman will give you her phone number.

The relevant part is #7 "Touch for a Date". Excerpt:

Perhaps more surprisingly women also responded well to a light touch on the arm when being asked for their phone number by a man in the street (Gueguen, 2007). This may be because women associated a light 1 or 2-second touch with greater dominance. (Bear in mind, though, that this research was in France again!)

I can't access the full text of the actual study, but maybe some of the university students here can read and summarize.

By giving us no reason to think that you're capable of non-motivated cognition.

I voted you down for saying "Also, you're a bad person for saying a woman who doesn't shave her legs is gross" when I never said anything of the sort. Maybe you misunderstood the term "grossly obese" (which uses 'gross' in the sense of 'large')? I don't know.

Even if I had said that, there would have to be a nicer way to correct it.

You make a very good point here. But you see, women don't find men who try to be nice to them attractive. They call it "clingy", "creepy" behavior. Human male-female interaction is actually a signalling game, where the man being nice simply sends a signal of weakness. Women are genetically programmed to only let alpha sperm in, and the alpha is not a character who goes around being nice to strangers.

Oversimplified to the extent that it is basically not true.

1usedToPost12y
You comment would be more useful if you said which ways it is oversimplified, and which additions and caveats you think are most important to restore it to being true.
1anonymous25912y
And yet I would bet that it is still closer to true than I approve of. In particular, closer to true than the mental model used by the naive "nice guy"/"beta".

I think the most important question is "Is it ethical to obtain sex by deliberately faking social signals, given what we know of the consequences for both parties of this behaviour?".

"Deliberately faking social signals"? But, but, that barely makes any sense. They are signals. You give the best ones you can. Everybody else knows that you are trying to give the best signals that you can and so can make conclusions about your ability to send signals and also what other signals you will most likely give to them and others in the future. That is more or less what socializing is. I suppose blatant lies in a context where lying isn't appropriate and elaborate creation of false high status identities could be qualify - but in those case I would probably use a more specific description.

A close second would be "Is it ethical to engage in dominance-seeking behaviour in a romantic relationship?".

A third would be "could the majority of humans have a romantic relationship without dominance-seeking behavior?" and the fourth : "would most people find romantic relationships anywhere near as satisfying without dominance-seeking behavior?" (My money is on the "No"s.)

4NancyLebovitz12y
One more question: What principles would help establish how much dominance seeking behavior is enough to break the relationship or in some other way cause more damage than it's worth, considering that part of dominance is ignoring feedback that it's unwelcome?"
4wedrifid12y
Yes, that part is hard, even on a micro scale. I have been frequently surprised that I underestimate how much dominance seeking would be optimal. I attribute this to mind-projection. ie "This means she would prefer me to do that? Wow. I'd never take that shit if it was directed at me. Hmm... I'm going do that for her benefit and be sure not to send any signal that I am doing it for compliance. It's actually kind of fun." (Here I do mean actual unambiguous messages - verbal or through blatantly obvious social signalling by the partner. I don't mean just "some source says that's what women want".) Fortunately we can choose which dominance seeking behaviors to accept and reject at the level of individual behavioral trait. We could also, if it was necessary for a particular relationship, play the role of someone who is ignoring feedback but actually absorb everything and process it in order to form the most useful model of how to navigate the relationship optimally. On the flip side we can signal and screen to avoid dominance seeking behaviors that we particularly don't want and seek out and naturally reward those that we do want.

No, that's called sex slavery.

Not unless sex slaves are able to divorce you and take most of your stuff if you piss them off.

The ability to terminate a contract at will means that the other party can coerce you to the extent that you value the continuation of the contract more than they do. Calling a marriage contract with a rather unusual "always willing to have sex" clause sex slavery is a massive insult to sex slaves.

Within the limits of how efficiently of how divorce is set up in the contract, effectively the contract in question is actually equivalent to "have sex with me enough or the relationship is over". Basically that is how relationships work implicitly anyway. You just aren't supposed to talk about it that overtly (because that almost never works.) Basically the arrangement sounds a whole lot worse than it is because we aren't used to thinking about relationships in terms that fully account for all our game theoretic options.

9TheOtherDave12y
Modulo the time that it takes to implement contract termination, I suppose. That is, the situation where my husband gets to have sex with me whenever he wants unless I say "I'm terminating our marriage!" (at which point he no longer does) is different from the situation where he gets to have sex with me whenever he wants unless I have previously spent some non-zero amount of time obtaining a divorce decree. In the latter case, my husband can coerce me regardless of our relative valuation of the contract. It's also worth noting that, even if we posit that the marriage contract (M1) implies an obligation for sex on demand, it also involves enough other clauses as well that it is easy to imagine a second kind of contract, M2, that was almost indistinguishable from M1 except that it did not include such an obligation. One could imagine a culture that started out with a cultural norm of M1 for marriages, and later came to develop a cultural norm for M2 instead. If that culture were truly foolish, it might even allow/encourage couples to sign a marriage contract without actually specifying what obligations it entailed... or, even more absurdly, having the contractual obligations vary as the couple moved around the country, or as time went by, based on changes in local or federal law. In such an absurd scenario, it's entirely possible that some people would think they'd signed an M1 contract while others -- perhaps even their spouses -- thought they'd signed an M2 contract. There might even be no discernible fact of the matter. When a contractual relationship gets that implicitly defined by cultural norms and social expectations and historical remnants, and gets embedded in a culture with conflicting norms and expectations, it becomes a very non-prototypical example of a contractual relationship, and it's perhaps best to stop expecting my intuitions about contracts to apply to it cleanly.
3wedrifid12y
When a contractual relationship gets that implicitly defined by cultural norms and social expectations and historical remnants, and gets embedded in a culture with conflicting norms and expectations, it becomes a very non-prototypical example of a contractual relationship, and it's perhaps best to avoid getting entangled in that kind of contractual relationship. (Unless you are somehow sure that the contract is in your favor.) Mind you in my experience actually telling a girlfriend that in the general case getting married seems to be a terrible idea meets with mixed results. Something to do with wanting to play dress-ups with white dresses and so forth. :P

For rationality's sake, people.

I think you probably should have used the conditional: "would make me want to slap you".

[-][anonymous]12y100

Probably, but then I would have missed out on the surreal experience of getting jumped all over for admitting that I am offended by a statement that was intended as an example of something offensive, in a thread about how impossible it is to have a conversation about these things without getting jumped all over. It's been great so far!

[-][anonymous]12y120

Don't want to be rude, but are you American?

Its always fascinating to me how American minds rush so quickly to race with any mention of appearance (and indeed often any topic whatsoever), from the outside it seems like a society wide obsession.

3pedanterrific12y
It does from the inside, too. (I wonder if South Africans have a similar tendency?)
6DoubleReed12y
Yes, I am American. Certainly I'm rushing to race, but that's the point I was having trouble with. If I didn't consider race, then I don't see how I would have found it so surprising in the first place. Regardless of American's obsession with race, race is still a simple example of this. Race. :D

I'm hoping that people here have gotten enough stronger that my rather non-contentious handling of this subject doesn't lead to a blow-up. So far, it hasn't.

I'm hoping that people here have gotten enough stronger that my rather non-contentious handling of this subject doesn't lead to a blow-up.

Trouble is, blow-ups are in fact the less bad failure mode in discussions of this sort. A much less bad one.

If it is indeed the case that, as you suggest, spelling out the truth on these topics requires breaking strong taboos, then there's a third failure mode, where LessWrongers actually succeed at spelling out the taboo truth, and this causes the site to be pegged as a hate site and lose influence on the cold-button topics that actually matter.

If it's a choice between 1) don't talk about these issues and risk forgoing some minor novel insights on a topic that affects most people's life decisions only very indirectly, 2) talk about these issues in an inoffensive way and risk creating a false consensus of the kind you describe, 3) talk about these issues in an offensive way and risk becoming a hate site (as well as presumably having more blowups), I really would much rather choose 1.

If you're mistaken and we can be both non-taboo and accurate, then wanting to have the discussion becomes more reasonable. But many people don't seem to think you're mistaken, and I don't understand why these people aren't helping me root for option 1.

If it's a choice between 1) don't talk about these issues and risk forgoing some minor novel insights on a topic that affects most people's life decisions only very indirectly, 2) talk about these issues in an inoffensive way and risk creating a false consensus of the kind you describe, 3) talk about these issues in an offensive way and risk becoming a hate site (as well as presumably having more blowups), I really would much rather choose 1.

I remember we once had a disagreement about this, but in the meantime I have moved closer to your view.

Basically, the problem is that the idea of a general forum that attempts to apply no-holds-barred rational thinking to all sorts of sundry topics is unworkable. It will either lead to people questioning all kinds of high-status ideological beliefs and purveyors of official truth, thus giving the forum a wacky extremist reputation (and inevitably generating a lot of ugly quarrels in the process) -- or it will converge towards ersatz "rationality" that incorporates all the biases inherent to the contemporary respectable high-status beliefs and institutions as its integral part. What is needed to salvage the situation is a clear sta... (read more)

5lessdazed12y
I object to your use of "questioning" here, because it has become ambiguous. I suppose you mean "espousing low-status opinions as the result of questioning". Notice how and why nothing like this has been necessary for traditional politics. People post political manifestos and are often told both that the content is inappropriate because of its subject and that they have made specific severe errors of thought. I don't remember a case in which the political poster kept pushing and ultimately only the first response was given, because it isn't really true, it's just that if content is political, the outside view is that it is flawed. The point of the forum is to develop thinking techniques that are useful because they can be widely applicable. Apolitical examples are part of the training, but eventually one only cares about applying the system of thought when it reaches correct conclusions that otherwise would not have been reached, and it will inevitably deviate from what other systems would conclude. Allow me to float an idea: post a disclaimer on the site that as a test and to prevent cultishness, one (or perhaps a few) deceptively wrong idea (wrong as unanimously agreed upon by a number of demonstrably masterful people) is advocated as if it were the mainstream opinion here, and aspiring rationalists are expected to reach the unpopular (here) opinion. The masters - most,but not all of them - argue for the popular (here) opinion that is low-status in society. Anyone who objects that an aspect of the site has a plurality of evilly inclined and majority of wrongly thinking people on a topic (say, PUA) can be told that that subject is suspected to be the (or one of the) ones on which the best thinkers not only disagree with the local majority opinion, but do so unanimously. It goes without saying that...well, it really does go without saying, so I won't say it.
3Strange712y
College physics professor gives a weekly lecture. Toward the end of the first day, a student in the first row points out an elementary mistake in one of the equations. Prof congratulates the student, announces that every day there will be an error in the lecture. The midterm and final exams will consist of a list of lecture dates, and the only way to pass a given question is to point out the error in the corresponding day's lecture. Prof gets into progressively more complex subjects. Everybody takes good notes. After the final, that student from the front row visits the prof's office, apologetically explains that nobody could figure out the mistake in the last lecture. Prof says "That's alright, I can't either."
5steven046112y
What's scarier, the idea of a conceptual apparatus that attempts to apply no-holds-barred rational thinking to all sorts of sundry topics may to an extent be unworkable. If the deniers of high-status-falsehood-1 all started using some catchy phrase (of the sort that LW has lots of), and then the deniers of high-status-falsehood-2 started using that phrase too, both would start smelling like the other and seem crazier for it. (This is one of the considerations that make me not want to try getting around these restrictions with pseudonyms.) On the other hand, of course, there are a number of concepts to fall back on that basically can't be corrupted because they're used all the time by e.g. probability theorists obviously lacking any agenda. When I said that, I was thinking of the "do women like nice guys or jerks" question specifically. I wouldn't say politically-charged topics hardly affect people's lives as a blanket statement, though I think it's true in a great many cases. But your reading was the more natural one and I apologize for being unclear.
2CronoDAS12y
It's really hard to actually know when the "respectable" opinion is severely delusional... and even if the consensus view is indeed totally wrong, most minority opinions are usually even wronger than that. Saying the Sun orbits the Earth is much less crazy that saying that the Sun orbits the Moon half the time and Mars the other half of the time. See also.
3Vladimir_M12y
I disagree. Of course, it's hard to know this with consistent reliability across the board, but there are plenty of particular cases where this is perfectly clear. Many of these cases don't even involve topics that are ideologically charged to such extremes that contrarian conclusions would be outright scandalous. (Though of course the purveyors of the respectable opinion and the officially accredited truth wouldn't be pleased, and certainly wouldn't be willing to accept the contrarian discourse as legitimate.) To give a concrete example, it is clear that, say, mainstream economics falls into this latter category.
2CronoDAS12y
Just watch out that when you say "The experts on X are wrong; don't believe them" that you aren't telling people to sell nonapples. "Don't believe in YHVH" doesn't mean that you should go believe in Zenu.
6Vladimir_M12y
I don't mean rejecting the mainstream view in favor of some existing contrarian position -- of which the majority are indeed unavoidably wrong, no matter what the merits of the mainstream view -- but merely applying the very basic tools of common sense and rational thinking to see if the justification for the mainstream view can stand up to scrutiny. My point is that often the mainstream view fails as soon as it's checked against the elementary laws of logic and the most basic and uncontroversial principles of sound epistemology. It really isn't hard.
6HughRistik12y
I have appreciated your non-contentious handling of these subjects, both here and elsewhere.
2wedrifid12y
I have to second that. NancyLebovitz comes across as positively sane and relaxing to converse with (and read) - a valuable and somewhat rare trait in this subject area.
4steven046112y
Blowups seem like they can be quite damaging even if they occur only a fraction of the time. Even without blowups, there's still the waste of space and collective attention. As I see it, the recent comments page is to some extent a commons that a minority of LWers are tempted to spend on their pet topic, and that a majority of LWers would like to see spent on topics more directly related to the site's theme, but the minority is here in the thread voting and the majority is not. On the other hand, the vote numbers here are extreme enough that I find them surprising. Should I conclude that, as a community, we've decided to stop having on-topic and anti-mind-killing norms? Or is it the way I said it?
7lessdazed12y
Obviously, mind-killingness is a joint property of an idea and a mind, and not the sole property of ideas. This thread has gone well.
6NancyLebovitz12y
I'm not sure why you got so many downvotes-- I'm not one of the people who supplied them. Since "women prefer jerks" is something which is commonly believed but which may not have a lot of evidence supporting it (especially if 'women' isn't quantified and 'jerks' isn't defined), I don't think it's off-topic to discuss it. What topics would you like to see more of?
7steven046112y
That could describe anyone's pet issue. The math, psychology, philosophy, and economics of rationality, careful futurism, the singularity, existential risks, optimal philanthropy, strategies for rationalists and their organizations, considerations relevant to common life decisions that human biases cause to be ignored elsewhere or that benefit unusually from using our conceptual tools.
5Luke_A_Somers12y
It seems to me that this topic falls squarely into the last category.
4lessdazed12y
I disagree insofar as it's not obvious what that phrase means. Assuming everyone who believes "it" actually has beliefs that provide predictions, it's not obvious that those believers make common predictions. I think the phrase stands in for widely varying sets of different actual beliefs, rather than either meaning just one sort of thing or usually being just emotive, but I don't believe that too firmly.
5wedrifid12y
Women are, on average, more attracted to men who are more selfish and aggressive than they are compliant and cooperative.
4thomblake12y
Or disagree that it is off-topic or mind-killing.

"Indeed, most young people today no longer go on 'dates' to get to know a potential partner. Instead, they meet each other at a social event, 'hook up', and then go on dates (if the hookup went well).4"

Can you provide more back up on the "most" here? I tried to find more information, and while I could only locate reviews of the Bogle book online, none of them even mentioned any numbers. However they did make it sound like Bogle did not get a representative sample of "young people today." If there is not sufficient empirical back up to say " most," you might instead say "many" or "a growing portion."

4lukeprog12y
Changed to 'many'.

I find it difficult to believe Vladimir_M, who is posting anonymously, will suffer consequences more unpleasant than a lengthy argument he doesn't want to have with somebody who does not agree with him.

As far as anonymity goes Vladimir_M isn't really really up there. Enough comments to earn 7k karma gives away rather a lot of information. And I wasn't aware Vladimir_M was a pseudonym.

Writing stuff you don't want associated with you on the internet is a terrible idea.

This is starting to remind me of what happened to nutritional advice in the 1980s:

In nutrition "complex carbohydrates good! fats bad!" was widely promulgated

In dating "niceness/agreeableness good! alpha behavior bad!" was widely promulgated

in about the same time frame - and looks like it was comparably bad advice...

Lukeprog, you have produced exactly that which we have been warned against: an article and a paradigm which has all the appearances and dressings of rationality (lots of citations, links to articles on decision theory, rationalist lingo), but which spectacularly fails to actually pursue the truth.

Vladimir_M puts it better than I could:

First, there is the conspicuous omission of any references to the PUA elephant in the room. The body of insight developed by this particular sort of people, whatever its faults, is of supreme practical importance for anyone who wants to formulate practical advice in this area. Without referencing it explicitly, one can either ignore it altogether and thus inevitably talk nonsense, or pretend to speak based solely on official academic literature, which is disingenuous and unfair in its failure to attribute credit and also misleading for those who would like to pursue their own research in the matter.....

he continues:

On the whole, the article is based on the premise that an accurate and no-nonsense analysis of the topic will result in something that sounds not just inoffensive, but actually strongly in line with various fashionable and high-sta

... (read more)

Thank you for the positive mention, but I'm afraid I disagree with your model of me. Luke is a far braver man than I to even enter this minefield; I won't condemn him for not dancing a merry jig on top of it too.

Luke originally tried to write an article referring to PUA. People told him this was controversial, not just among ignorant people but among long-time readers of this site, that it had always led to unpleasant flame wars in the past, and that it was making us look bad "abroad".

Now he seems to be writing more or less the same thing, but communicating it in a less offensive way. I don't fault him for leaving anything out yet because it's only been one post in a series. I don't think anything he wrote is actually false (well, I have issues with the 'Mean and Variance' section, but he retracted the meat of that). And I think he made the right decision in trying to pitch it to a wider audience.

Luke is a far braver man than I to even enter this minefield; I won't condemn him for not dancing a merry jig on top of it too.

He's not entering a minefield so much as dragging it back to his village.

2usedToPost12y
Yes, I would also like to congratulate Lukeprog for caving in to social pressure and posting information which is deliberately misleading. I am sure that all the (male) people who read this article, and start using his politically correct nonsense to improve their dating lives will really appreciate it too! (As for female dating advice, I don't know what I am talking about, so I will shut up) Since the advice given in the article is actively harmful, a better solution would be for Lukeprog to just tell people to google pick up. That way, nobody could flame him on LW, and he wouldn't be spreading actively harmful information. he is telling people to display "agreeableness" - pretty much the opposite of PUA advice, he is telling you to "like" others - a dangerous piece of advice which could quickly turn into desperate, supplicative behavior, complimenting, etc. He is emphasizing physical looks over dominance and alpha-male behavior, again the opposite of PUA advice. I will edit my comment to take account of what you said.

Your point about agreeableness is well taken, so I looked up his reference, Figueredo et al. (2006).

First, keep in mind he's using agreeableness in the OCEAN sense, not in the sense of "a person who always agrees to everything". So it's not diametrically opposed to PUA belief, although I agree there's still a problem that has to be explained.

That brings us to the reference. Figueredo's study itself found no impact of agreeableness, but in the introduction, it cites eight previous studies that it said found "extraversion, openness, and agreeableness are reliably correlated with mating success". I looked up one of these studies, and it was on the success of long-term marital relationships, which is a whole different kettle of fish than the PUA's usual focus. So depending on the other seven studies I didn't have the energy to look up, they could both be right. It would have been nice if Luke had qualified that in his post, but really the fault was on Figueredo and not him.

Other than that, I would honestly like to hear what advice of Luke's you consider misleading. Again aside from the "Mean and Variance" section, it all seems pretty well referenced and backed up.

3usedToPost12y
I would consider the article misleading in the sense that "Women like alpha males, men like beautiful women" is the central truth of dating, in the same sense that evolution is the central truth of biology. A creationist pamphlet which briefly mentioned a watered-down version of evolution - such as "microevolution"- in small print on page 7 is seriously misleading a student. Likewise, this article briefly mentions status, but then gives a lot of contradictory tips about being "agreeable" and "liking her", both of which are low-status behaviours, all in amongst a morass of irrelevant, non-field-tested nonsense. Academics who write papers on dating "science" are simply not in the same kind of tight feedback relationship with reality that pickup artists are, so they produce a collection of half truths and irrelevant effects, as well as missing out the most important aspects of the game. So the fact that he has referenced this stuff is pretty useless. Far better to take a look at what others who have tried stuff have found. The PU community can be thought of as a giant social psychology experiment, except without the arbitrary restrictions of academic science. Mystery is rumoured to have done 10,000 cold approaches and sexed 200-300 women. All the way from meet to penis-in-vagina, with a sample size of 10,000. Then multiply that by all the hundreds of highly successful PU artists. Compare that to a social science experiment which has a small sample size (~30) and only looks at one aspect of relationships and dating, and probably looks at correlations rather than causation. By the way, props for actually pursuing these references. It is a shame that this is hard and tiring to do.
5JoachimSchipper12y
I'm confused - you seem to take it as a given that PUA techniques are the only/best tool for pursuing the many forms of relationship mentioned in the article. I'm by no means an expert, but I'd be surprised if PUA worked as well for, say, a woman trying to extend her list of partners with a man with a shared interest in classical music. (Quickly glancing at some lists, "get out there and meet people" seems to be good advice; but quickly approaching lots of partners may not work well in this case.) Isn't it possible that the broader scope of this article justifies de-emphasizing pickup artistry? Even if you don't think that PUA should be avoided for its mind-killing properties, shouldn't we at least give lukeprog the benefit of the doubt? If nothing else, there may be follow-up articles dealing with this.
2PhilosophyTutor12y
I should disclose immediately that I am one of the people who find the PUA community distasteful on a variety of levels, intellectual and ethical, and this may colour my viewpoint. The PUA community may present themselves, and think of themselves, as a "disreputable source of accurate information" but in the absence of controlled trials I don't think the claim to accuracy is well-founded. Sticking strictly to the scientific literature is not so much ignoring the elephant in the room as suspending judgment as to whether the elephant exists until we can turn the lights on. If it's been said already I apologise, but it seems obvious to me that an ethical rationalist's goals in relationship-seeking should be to seek a relationship that creates maximal utility for both parties, and that scientific evidence about how to find suitable partners and behave in the relationship so as to maximise utility for both partners is a great potential source of human happiness. It's obvious from even the briefest perusal of PUA texts that the PUA community are concerned very much with maximising their own utility and talking down the status of male outgroup members and women in general, but not with honestly seeking means to maximise the utility of all stakeholders. Given that their methodology is incompatible with scientific reasoning and their attitudes incompatible with maximising global utility for all sentient stakeholders, I think it's quite correct to leave their claims out of a LW analysis of human sexual relationships.

Given that their methodology is incompatible with scientific reasoning

They write stuff on their version of ArXiv (called pick-up forums) then they go out and try it, and if it works repeatably it is incorporated into PU-lore.

What definition of science did you have in mind that this doesn't fit?

There are a significant number of methodological problems with their evidence-gathering.

PUAs don't change just one variable at a time, nor do they keep strict track of what they change and when so they can do a multivariate regression analysis. Instead they change lots of variables at once. A PUA would advocate that a "beta" change their clothes, scent, social environment(s), social signalling strategies and so forth all at once and see if their sexual success rate changed. However if this works you don't know which changes did what.

The people doing the observation are the same people conducting the experiment which is obviously incompatible with proper blinding.

The people reporting the data stand to gain social status in the PUA hierarchy if they report success, and hence have an incentive to misreport their actual data. When a PUA reports that they successfully obtained coitus on one out of six attempts using a given methodology it is reasonable to suspect that some such reports come from people who actually took sixteen attempts, or from people who failed to obtain coitus given sixteen attempts and went home to angrily masturbate and then post on a PUA forum that they ... (read more)

7steven046112y
You're assuming that there's no feedback other than a single yes/no bit per approach.
3pjeby12y
Note that this may be a feature, not a bug: a PUA with unwavering belief in their method will likely exude more confidence, regardless of the method employed. I remember one pickup guru describing how when he was younger, he'd found this poem online that was supposed to be the perfect pickup line... and the first few times he used it, it was, because he utterly believed it would work. Later, he had to find other methods that allowed him to have a similar level of belief. As has been mentioned elsewhere on LW, belief causes people to act differently -- often in ways that would be difficult or impossible to convincingly fake if you lacked the belief. (e.g. microexpressions, muscle tension, and similar cues) To put it another way, even the falsifiability of PUA theory is subject to testing: i.e., do falsifiable PUA theories work better or worse than unfalsifiable ones? If unfalsifiable ones produce better results, then it's a feature, not a bug. ;-)
8PhilosophyTutor12y
Only in the same sense that the placebo effect is a "feature" of evidence-based medicine. It's okay if evidence-based medicine gets a tiny, tiny additional boost from the placebo effect. It's good, in fact. However when we are trying to figure out whether or not a treatment works we have to be absolutely sure we have ruled out the placebo effect as the causative factor. If we don't do that then we can never find out which are the good treatments that have a real effect plus a placebo effect, and which are the fake treatments that only have a placebo effect. Only if it turned out that method absolutely, totally did not matter and only confidence in the method mattered would it be rational to abandon the search for the truth and settle for belief in an unfalsifiable confidence-booster. It seems far more likely to me that there will in fact be approach methods that work better than others, and that only by disentangling the confounding factor of confidence from the real effect could you figure out what the real effect was and how strong it was.
3pjeby12y
This really, really underestimates the number of confounding factors. For any given man, the useful piece of information is what method will work for him, for women that: 1. Would be happy with him, and 2. He would be happy with (Where "with" is defined as whatever sort of relationship both are happy with.) This is a lot of confounding factors, and it's pretty central to the tradeoff described in this post: do you go for something that's inoffensive to lots of people, but not very attractive to anyone, or something that's actually offensive to most people, but very attractive to your target audience? You can't do group randomized controls with something where individuality actually does count. This is especially true of PUA advice like, "be in the moment" and "say something that amuses you". How would you test these bits of advice, for example, while holding all other variables unchanged? By their very definition, they're going to produce different behavior virtually every time you act on them.
2PhilosophyTutor12y
There are two classes of claim here we need to divide up, but they share a common problem. First the classes, then the problem. The first class is claims that are simply unfalsifiable. If there is no way even in theory that a proposition could be confirmed or falsified then that proposition is simply vacuous. There is nothing to say about it except that rational agents should discard the claim as meaningless and move on. If any element of PUA doctrine falls into this category then for LW purposes we should simply flag it as unfalsifiable and move on. The second class is claims that are hard to prove or disprove because there are multiple confounding factors, but which with proper controls and a sufficiently large sample size we could in theory confirm or disconfirm. If a moderate amount of cologne works better than none at all or a large amount of cologne, for example, then if we got enough men to approach enough women then eventually if there's a real effect we should be able to get a data pool that shows statistical significance despite those confounding effects. The common problem both classes of claims have is that a rationalist is immediately going to ask someone who proposes such a claim "How do you think you know this?". If a given claim is terribly difficult to confirm or disconfirm, and nobody has yet done the arduous legwork to check it, it's very hard to see how a rational agent could think it is true or false. The same goes except more strongly for unfalsifiable claims. For a PUA to argue that X is true, but that X is impossible to prove, is to open themselves up to the response "How do you know that, if it's impossible to prove?".
6pjeby12y
Sure... as long as you separate predictions from theory. When you reduce a PUA theory to what behaviors you expect someone believing that theory would produce, or what behaviors, if successful, would result in people believing such theories, you then have something suitable for testing, even if the theory is nonsensical on its face. Lots of people believe in "The Secret" because it appears to produce results, despite the theory being utter garbage. But then, it turns out that some of what's said is consistent with what actually makes people "luckier"... so there was a falsifiable prediction after all, buried under the nonsense. If a group of people claim to produce results, then reduce their theory to more concrete predictions first, then test that. After all, if you discard alchemy because the theory is bunk, you miss the chance to discover chemistry. Or, in more LW-ish speak: theories are not evidence, but even biased reports of actual experience are evidence of something. A Bayesian reductionist should be able to reduce even the craziest "woo" into some sort of useful probabilistic information... and there's a substantial body of PUA material that's considerably less "woo" than the average self-help book. In the simplest form, this reduction could be just: person A claims that they were unsuccessful with women prior to adopting some set of PUA-trained behaviors. If the individual has numbers (even if somewhat imprecise) and there are a large number of people similar to person A, then this represents usable Bayesian evidence for that set of behaviors (or the training itself) being useful to persons with similar needs and desires as person A. This is perfectly usable evidence that doesn't require us to address the theory or its falsifiability at all. Now, it is not necessarily evidence for the validity of person A's favorite PUA theory! Rather, it is evidence that something person A did differently was helpful for person A... and it remains an open question

Given that their methodology is incompatible with scientific reasoning

Not something you have shown (or something that appears remotely credible).

and their attitudes incompatible with maximising global utility for all sentient stakeholders,

Not much better and also not a particularly good reason to exclude an information source from an analysis. (An example of a good reason would be "people say a bunch of prejudicial nonsense for all sorts of reasons and everybody concerned ends up finding it really, really annoying").

8Vaniver12y
It is not clear to me that utilities can be easily compared. What tradeoff between my satisfaction and my partner's satisfaction should I be willing to accept? I can see how to elicit my preferences (for things like partner happiness, relationship duration, and so on) and try to predict how the consequences of my actions will impact my preferences, but I don't quite see how to add utilities, or compare the amount of satisfaction I could provide to multiple potential partners. It's not clear that they want to talk down the status of women in general. Men becoming more attractive and less annoying to women seems to be better for women, and there's quite a bit in the PUA literature of how to keep a long-term relationship going, if that's what you want to do.
1PhilosophyTutor12y
You are absolutely right that utilities cannot be easily compared and that this is a fundamental problem for utilitarian ethics. We can approximate a comparison in some cases using proxies like money, or in some cases by assuming that if we average enough people's considered preferences we can approach a real average preference. However these do not solve the fundamental problem that there is no way of measuring human happiness such that we could say with confidence "Action A will produce a net 10 units of happiness, and Action B will produce a net 11 units of happiness". In the case of human sexual relationships what you'd really have to do is conduct a longitudinal study looking at variables like reported happiness, incidence of mental illness, incidence of suicide, partner-assisted orgasms per unit time, longevity and so on. That said this difficulty in totalling up net utilities is not a moral blank cheque. If women report distress after a one night stand with a PUA followed by cessation of contact then that has to be taken as evidence of caused disutility, and you can't remove the moral burden that entails by pointing out that calculating net utility is difficult or postulating that their distress is their fault because they are "entitled"/"in denial"/etc.
4Vaniver12y
While this would give people more knowledge about how their actions turn into consequences, this doesn't help people decide which consequences they prefer, and so only weakly helps them decide which actions they prefer. So, let's drop the term utility, here, and see if that clarifies the moral burden. Suppose Bob and Alice go to a bar and meet; they both apply seduction techniques; they have sex that night. Alice's interest in Bob increases; Bob's interest in Alice decreases. What moral burdens are on each of them, and where did those moral burdens come from?

.... (wall of references at the end).... I am mystified by this. How the how the heck do you even skim all of that? I think it's awesome to have all these references, but can somebody enlighten me as to how one can do this?

9Nominull12y
Some people read faster than others, and there's a skill to reading academic writing that can improve your speed on that particular genre.
3BenLowell12y
Luke also has the advantage of that this is his job. It is not uncommon for research articles to have 50+ references, and review articles often have over 300 references. Edit: Luke's articles do have way more than the usual number of references. This article has approximately 120 sentences, with 37 notes and about 150 references, which doesn't make sense the way that I am familiar with. I am used to references referring to cited sources, and am not sure how Luke is using it. If it is a list of works consulted that makes sense.

I would presume that most papers will include a number of references to sources that the authors have only briefly skimmed, only read the abstract, or not actually read at all.

I saw an article somewhere (I wish I'd remembere where) about a widely-read paper making a mistake when it cited one of its sources, claiming that the source said something which it didn't. A number of later papers by other authors then repeated this mistaken claim, presumably because their authors didn't bother checking whether the prestigious paper was correct in its cite.

I'm about .90 confident that Luke hasn't actually read all of his cites in entirety.

I'm about .90 confident that Luke hasn't actually read all of his cites in entirety.

Correct. You win some Bayes points.

7Plasmon12y
"source X claims/proves statement Y" - the author should have read source X carefully "For general background information on subject A, see e.g. source B" - the author tries to make the paper more accessible to people from other fields by providing some context, but they do not need to have read source B in detail. Not reading all of your sources is not necessarily evil
2Kaj_Sotala12y
This is quite true, and I didn't mean to imply that it was evil.
6Richard_Kennaway12y
I think it is not rare for errors in citing to be repeated because no-one bothers to go back to the original source. Not reading the paper at all can be dangerous. I once read a paper in which the authors had unwittingly rediscovered, but in inferior form, mathematical results that were already proved in one of the papers they cited. Fortunately for the authors, I was refereeing their paper, and had read the paper they cited, so I was able to save them the embarrassment of publication.
7lukeprog12y
Though, this particular post was actually written before I was hired by SIAI at the beginning of September.
2falenas10812y
Well, a huge part of it is the section with the bullet poins where literally every sentence needed a citation to back it up.

This isn't really true. To give the most prominent example, Holocaust denial is heavily suppressed in Western societies, in many even with criminal penalties, although its falsity is not in any doubt whatsoever outside of the small fringe scene of people who espouse it. (And indeed, it really doesn't stand up even to the most basic scrutiny.) For most beliefs that the respectable opinion regards as deserving of suppression, respectable people are similarly convinced in their falsity with equal confidence, regardless of how much truth there might actually be in them.

Now, sometimes it does happen that certain claims are clearly true but at the same time so inflammatory and ideologically unacceptable that respectable people simply cannot bring themselves to admit it, even when the alternative requires a staggering level of doublethink and rationalization. In these situations, contrarians who provoke them by waving the obvious and incontrovertible evidence in front of their eyes will induce a special kind of rage. But these are fairly exceptional situations.

2lessdazed12y
How do people respond to the claims? I acknowledge that any response other than just "that's false" de-emphasizes the falsity of it, but if the response is "That's a lie and illegal," that's a different sort of thing to say than "That's classist," or the like for other claims. If people respond with "The powerful Jews will lock you up for saying such a thing, by the way I think it's 15% likely true," then that's an interesting case too, one that isn't a counterexample. In one sense legal coercion is at the far end of a single scale from mild disapproval to ostracization to illegalization,but in another sense it is qualitatively different. A country within which saying something is illegal might have most endorse the illegal idea, or most oppose it by simply calling it "false", or most oppose it by emphasizing its illegality and somewhat mentioning its illegality, etc., or no majority of any type. What's important here is the social climate around the statements, for which the laws on the books are important evidence but alone don't make an example or counterexample of a country.

That works for the future.

If you find something that works for the past please let me know. That would be awesome. Kind of like timer-turner hack for relationships. You wouldn't have to guess which relationships would work, you would just automatically select a relationship that would work by virtue of all the counterfactual bad relationships being pre-empted by the techniques that work for the past!

You have to somehow acquire that belief in the first place, and it seems like something that would be hard to learn any way but experience.

Or, like with many life lessons, by having good friends, role models and mentors. They help you notice that you're making a silly mistake when you've been making it for an order of weeks not an order of years!

Please don't use the word "rationality" or "rational" simply as a buzzword or applause light.

Actually, general criticism of democracy isn't such a big problem. It can make you look wacky and eccentric, but it's unlikely to get you categorized among the truly evil people who must be consistently fought and ostracized by all decent persons. There are even some respectable academic and scholarly ways to trash democracy, most notably the public choice theory.

Criticisms of democracy are really dangerous only when they touch (directly or by clear implication) on some of the central great taboos. Of course, respectable scholars who take aim at democracy would never dare touch any of these with a ten foot pole, which necessarily takes most teeth out of their criticism.

I think criticism of democracy goes over less well if you have something specific that you want to replace it with.

That is true, but you get into truly dangerous territory once you drop the implicit assumption that your criticism applies to democracy in all places and times, and start analyzing what exactly correlates with it functioning better or worse.

5NancyLebovitz12y
I expect it depends on what distinctions you're using for what corelates with how democracies do. For example, claiming that there's an optimal size for democracies that's smaller than a lot of existing countries could get contentious, but I don't think it would blow up as hard as what I suspect you're thinking of.
4Vladimir_M12y
Yes, of course, my above characterization was imprecise in this regard.

Also his main argument is basically that "boners don't lie". A large enough men find a specific subset of women on average more sexually desirable

Freudian slip?

[-][anonymous]12y100

Actually it is introgression that is an excellent reason to mix if you want to maximise genetic fitness (because of kin selection effects if your group gets some new genes), you just don't need a whole lot of mixing to acheive it.

And hybrid vigour is a reason in its favour if you want to just make people with neat traits, while outbreeding depression is a reason against.

The effects I mention as colourfully illustrated by Oligopsony change the overall effect of mixing. Under different selective pressures (which may well be caused by dominant cultural preference for visible phenotype!) group A and B may mix at about the same rate in all universes, yet in one universe group A may be 80% of the population (with a few introgressed genes from B) several generations later, while under a different set of pressures it may be 5% of the population, and an AB hybrid could be anything from 1% to 90%. Indeed mixing would not nesecarilly be created equal, it is perfectly possible that 400 years later, even if marriage between the groups was symmetrical 95% of Y chromosomes are variants that group B possessed and 80% of the mDNA is that which was possessed by A. It is even possible that group A... (read more)

I would if he asked. Until then I can't be sure he wants to know.

2DaFranker12y
Aww, too bad he never invoked Crocker's Rules. That would give you immediate license and confirmation that he does want to know.

The notion that there is information to be gained by categorizing things after they are fully described is useless from a utilitarian perspective.

For example, if we know exactly what the process of waterboarding is, and how unpleasant it is, the answer to the question "Is waterboarding really torture," tells us nothing about the morality of doing it. At least that question might have some relevance when posed to presidential candidates, since "torture" is a legal category and saying "Yes, it is torture," might imply an obligat... (read more)

6cousin_it12y
Relevant LW posts: How An Algorithm Feels From Inside, Diseased Thinking. Kudos for noticing that the dangling categorization mistake sometimes also serves as a rhetorical trick. Do other biases also double as rhetorical tricks?
7lessdazed12y
I'm going to skim the transcript from the Republican Presidential candidates' debate a few days ago for five minutes and see what biases I find that aren't prominent logical fallacies. I might find none, but I'm writing this now so that a later statement on what I found or didn't find will be more meaningful. Wish me luck, I'm going in! ETA: What a disaster. Most problems look simply like classic fallacies, but not all. I'll elaborate later.
4Emile12y
Thanks for this short phrasing for something I often want to say. I agree with your connotation etc. - but I think the question "Is waterboarding really torture?" does have moral implications beyond presidential candidates: whether or not it is torture can determine whether or not waterboarding goes against a preexisting law or even informal promise ("No ma, I promise I won't torture anybody in Iraq"), and breach of agreement is morally relevant. More generally, categorizing things even after they are fully described can still be a gain of information if the category label is mentioned in some outside agreement. For another example, if Professor Witkins the Mineralogist told you "I'll give you $10 for each blegg you bring back from the mine, but nothing for rube.", and you're considering whether to put a purplish weird-shaped rock in your bag, even if you have full information on it you might still wonder if a Mineralogist would classify it as a blegg or a rube (Even if you know Witkins wants the bleggs for their vanadium, you still expect him to pay you for vanadiumless bleggs).
2CuSithBell12y
I guess I Agree Denotationally But Disagree Connotationally. As in, that is technically true in a hypothetical situation wherein you can fully describe a situation, but a human is unlikely to find themself in such a situation (at least for the time being), and my question was not an attempt to categorize a described thing - rather, it was an attempt to elicit a description for a categorized thing. It is relevant to a discussion with wedrifid, regarding rape, what wedrifid means by the term. I do not believe PUA is rape. I do not believe that "acting confident and suppressing nervousness is rape". I do believe that sex coerced without the threat of sexual violence can still "count" as rape. To say that PUA techniques and theories regarding persuasion necessarily count as rape is, to me, absurd. To say that they could not be used in a coercive manner seems equally absurd (like saying "if you're going to trick people you don't need psychology" (and therefore the study of psychology, divorced from ethical concerns, would not teach people how to trick others)).

Edit: I don't understand the downvotes. wedrifid's objection is true, but it wasn't my main point. Is it because I'm telling people to hit on people who aren't their first choice? Or is it the "how dare you want the same characteristics everyone wants" undertones? Or did I just plain miss Yvain's point?

I would say you missed his point. The description was meant to be analogous to the sort of men who're held up as having entitlement complexes. If she doesn't meet many men's preferences, her dating prospects are going to be slim, and she can try... (read more)

8NancyLebovitz12y
I think part of the situation is that both the very fat woman and the shy man feel rightly that they're on the receiving end of a hostile conspiracy. It isn't just that people are spontaneously unattracted to them, it's that there's a lot of public material which portrays people like them (and perhaps especially in the case of the very fat woman) anyone who's attracted to them as objects of mockery. Thinking about the dominance thing.... there are heterosexual couples (actually, now that I think about it, the examples I know best are poly) where the woman is dominant. If a man is temperamentally in the not-dominant to submissive range, would looking for a compatible dominant woman be a good strategy?

If a man is temperamentally in the not-dominant to submissive range, would looking for a compatible dominant woman be a good strategy?

There are many more submissive men than there are dominant women. On top of that, in the poly community I seem to have noticed a pattern where dominant women end up primaries with even more dominant men (with both taking more submissive people as secondaries, etc).

So the prospects for a submissive male can be slim.

3MixedNuts12y
Thanks!

I would have voted it down were it not for the rest of the paragraph cited, which basically comes down to "anecdotes are Bayesian evidence, but with caveats related to the base rate, and not always positive evidence". Which is, as best I can tell, correct. In isolation, the opening sentence does seem to incorrectly imply that anecdotes don't count at all, and so I'd have phrased it differently if I was trying to make the same point, but a false start isn't enough for a downvote if the full post is well-argued and not obviously wrong.

that the outcomes of the combined arsenal of PUA tips and techniques cannot currently be distinguished from the outcomes of a change of clothes, a little personal grooming and asking a bunch of women to go out with you.

Even if that were true (and I don't think that's anywhere near the case), you keep dropping out the critical meta-level for actual human beings to achieve instrumental results: i.e., motivation.

That is, even if "a change of clothes, a little grooming, and asking a bunch of women out" were actually the best possible approach, it'... (read more)

1PhilosophyTutor12y
Speaking broadly, if the goal is Rational Romantic Relationships than any advice which doesn't have actual existing evidence to back it up is not advice rational people should be taking. If a whole bunch of different gurus are each flogging different techniques and none of them have evidence, then a rationalist should dismiss them all until they do have some evidence, just as we dismiss the alt-med gurus who flog different forms of alternative medicine without evidence. Without evidence PUA is no more the elephant in the Rationalist Romantic Relationship room than ayurveda is an elephant in the medical science room. As far as the superstition/placebo distinction you are making I think you are simply wrong linguistically speaking. Nothing stops a superstition being a placebo, and in fact almost all of alternative medicine could legitimately be described as placebo and superstition. Superstitions arise because of faulty cause/effect reasoning and may indeed have a placebo effect, like the red scarf you mention. I suspect but cannot prove that some parts of PUA doctrine arise in exactly the same way that belief in a lucky scarf arises. Someone tries it, they get lucky that time, and so from then on they try it every time and believe it helps. If some pieces of PUA technique are testable, that's great. They should test them and publish the results. Until they do their beliefs don't really have a place if we're talking about Rational Romantic Relationships. If they aren't testable, then they're unfalsifiable beliefs and rationalists should be committed to discarding unfalsifiable beliefs. PUA looks to me more like folklore than science, at this stage.
6pjeby12y
I agree with this statement... but as previously discussed, I mean Bayesian reductionist evidence. Which means, anecdotes count, even if they still count for less than numbers and double-blind tests. You're using a very non-LW definition of "rational" here, since the principles of Something To Protect, and avoiding the Failures Of Eld Science would say that it's your job to find something and test it, not to demand that people bring you only advice that's already vetted. If you wait for Richard Wiseman to turn "The Secret" into "Luck Theory", and you actually needed the instrumental result, then you lost. That is, you lost the utility you could have had by doing the testing yourself. For medical outcomes, doing the testing yourself is a bad idea because the worst-case scenario isn't that you don't get your goal, it's that you do damage to yourself or die. But for testing PUA or anything in personal development, your personal testing costs are ridiculously low, and the worst case is just that you don't get the goal you were after. This means that if the goal is actually important, and whatever scientifically-validated information you have isn't getting you the goal, then you don't just sit on your ass and wait for someone to hand you the research on a platter. Anything else isn't rational, where rational is defined (as on LW) as "winning".
7PhilosophyTutor12y
I think this is a misunderstanding of the correct application of Bayes' Theorem. Bayes is not a magic wand, and GIGO still applies. Anecdotal evidence counts but you have to correctly estimate the probability that you would hear that anecdote in a world where PUA methods were just placebos sold to the sex-starved and nerdy, as opposed to the probability that you would hear that anecdote in a world where PUA methods have some objectively measurable effect. I think most of the time the correct estimate is that those probabilities are barely distinguishable at best. A rationalist should have a clear distinction between Things That Are Probably True, and Things That Might Be True and Would Be Interesting To Try. The goal of the OP was to sum up the state of human knowledge with regard to Things That Are Probably True, which is the standard scholarly starting point in research. It seemed to me that PUA techniques, lacking any objective evidence to back them up, should be filed under Things That Might Be True and Would Be Interesting To Try but that their devotees were claiming that they were the elephant in the OP's room and that they had been unjustly excluded from the set of Things That Are Probably True. I'm not against the ethos of going out and trying these things, as long as the testing costs really are low (i.e. you don't pay good money for them). They might work, and even if they are just placebos you might get lucky anyway. However it's not rational to actually believe they probably work in the absence of proper evidence, as opposed to going along with them for the sake of experiment, or to try to squeeze them in to a list of Things That Are Probably True.
2dlthomas12y
Also, better placebo than nothing at all.
4wedrifid12y
(And sometimes hearing them counts as evidence against the phenomenon!)
[-][anonymous]12y90

It's hard not to take something personally when the pronoun in the direct object is "you".

For the purposes of anyone reading: When someone makes a list of two dozen supposed "rules", then they must also offer a method to prioritize between them -- or their claims become unfalsifiable and "not even wrong", since by cherrypicking rules, one can then explain anything.

E.g. sam says people are not allowed to "criticize blacks, women, homosexuals" -- and yet at other times he accuses people of only being allowed to praise Romney (a white man), but attack Cain (a black man) and Palin (a woman). To explain this he can appl... (read more)

4wedrifid12y
They explain less, to the extent that the rules contradict each other. It is unlikely that they explain nothing - in fact they would probably have to be explicitly contrived for that purpose.
2thomblake12y
Upvote for pedantry

It's perfectly fine, for me at least, but I prefer moral objections to be specified more clearly than "I do not agree", which seem more appropriate for the disputing of factual statements. I discuss this in further detail in a comment of mine above.

2taryneast12y
Yep - this is a good point. I realise that my statement was ambiguous about how/why I disagreed. I left it up to the reader. I did this, at the time, because I was quite angry at the things said on the website, and the way they were said. I was not in any fit state to argue my reasoning. I've since clarified in the followon comments... after sufficient time passed.

I don't know if this sort of information is wanted, but your post keeps setting off my sarcasm detector.

We humans compartmentalize by default, because brains don't automatically enforce belief propagation.

Belief propagation is an exact computation that brains can't be expected to perform (or even represent a problem statement for). Pointing to (absence of) it as an explanation for compartmentalization feels rather arbitrary (similarly with the reference to decision theory).

This might come out a little harsh, but...

whining about having been rejected, in public, in front of the woman who rejected you, is not exactly a turn on, I suppose.

2EphemeralNight12y
There aren't enough italics in the world to sufficiently emphasize how much whining about being rejected was not the intent of my comment.
5Richard_Kennaway12y
It may not have been the intent, but that was what it looked like to me also.
2A1987dM12y
Well, it didn't sound like that to me. (Mmm... Should I start up a karma poll to know how it sounded to other people?)
2DaFranker12y
I have a hack which usually gets such points across efficiently, though: "How did you - that's exactly, completely what I was thinking! You're totally right! ...(short pause)... Now put that in parenthesis, and put a minus sign in front. You'll see what I mean." I'd also add that the whining itself could not possibly have caused the rejection, since you'd have some kind of causal loop. I agree on the implied denotation that such a general attitude, if applied in other circumstances, would be detrimental. I disagree about the also-implicit conclusion that EphemeralNight does use that attitude in general. Nothing in particular seems to indicate that this person is prone to whining about rejection in general. We've only seen one single instance of some person kicking the soda machine, without knowing about their brother that just got arrested and the 5K$ debt they just learned about - to reuse an old example.

Not that I think it would save this thread at this point, but I suggest that you and everyone you are arguing with here would benefit from dropping the question of "Are some PUA tactics rape" and sticking to the question "Are some PUA tactics wrong". This conversation has totally derailed (if it hadn't already) on semantic issues about rape. You can argue that obtaining sex by deception or bullying is immoral regardless of whether or not it is rape.

Obtaining sex by deception, or bullying which does not involve physical violence or the threat thereof, for example, is still going to get you charged with rape in most places.

This is not an accurate statement of the law in common-law jurisdictions, nor, I suspect, of the law in most other Western countries. With some narrow exceptions -- such as impersonating the victim's husband, performing sexual acts under a false pretense of medical treatment, or failing to disclose a sexually transmitted disease -- enticing people into sex by false pretenses is us... (read more)

I have purposefully stayed out of the PUA discussion so far, but as it is still going on and no one seems to have taken a macro view, I am going to just this once give some of my opinion on it:

I think that the vast majority of people on this site want a general egalitarianism between the sexes. I’m not saying that I think men and women are completely equal in all ways, but rather that I think that women making 80 cents to the dollar is bad. Males growing up being taught to be ashamed to talk about feelings (especially in cases like PTSD or suicide) is bad... (read more)

8lessdazed12y
That phrase doesn't mean just one thing. I think that the vast majority of people on this site want a fair system of college admissions. That just means the label "fair", like "general egalitarianism" points inward at the speaker towards the speaker's values. "General" backs away from meaning anything too specific, and its use provides the opportunity for readers to insert their own idea of reasonableness.
5[anonymous]12y
.
[-][anonymous]12y120

I can talk to anyone, you're engaging, he's a creepy PUA?

1[anonymous]12y
.
4NancyLebovitz12y
You'd probably be interested in Clarisse Thorn's Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser. She spent quite a bit of time researching PUA, both in theory and in practice. Short version: There are a lot of kinds of PUA, ranging from types which are generally benevolent through types which are iffy to flat out misogyny. PUA is probably better for men who learn some skills, then leave the subculture(s). Having a strong habit of maintaining "strategic ambiguity" (I think this is Thorn's phrase) can lead to loneliness, no matter how many people it attracts. Note: there's a section about Thorn's relationship with a PUA which isn't terribly interesting. You may want to skip to the end which gets back to good stuff. She's aware of the problem with the section, but no one could agree on what needed to be cut. She says that feminists have been working on explicit verbal consent, and PUAs have been working on understanding non-verbal consent, and the two groups have useful things to learn from each other.
2A1987dM12y
That's already been proposed.
2Viliam_Bur12y
After reading your comment, my thoughts are somewhat confused. The first half seemed like a censorship by association: "some people feel that X is related to Y, we agree that Y is bad, therefore we should never tolerate a discussion about X". Then, the last paragraph seemed very reasonable, which makes me wonder whether the rest of the comment was just one huge disclaimer necessary to remove the guilt of speaking about X (which as we know is associated with Y, which is bad). Now on the topic -- Teaching about general social skills, with some gender-specific sidenotes, seems to me like a great idea. But I feel that this version somehow removes the most motivating part for some people. The "you should learn this because it can make your life awesome!!!" motivation turns into rather anemic "you should learn this because we told you so". Is this a necessary cost? It is even allowed to discuss things that seem awesome to a typical guy but not to a typical girl, or does any such discussion automatically deepen gender inequality? Seems to me that focusing too much on inequality leads to a zero-sum worldview. Generally, creating a positive utility for some people and zero utility for other people seems like a net improvement; but if it happens to statistically deepen some inequality, should we percieve it as bad and try to avoid it? So even things that highly motivate men to learn social skills should be replaced by their less attractive alternatives, simply because men are already having it too awesome today.
6Strange712y
If people are willing to learn calculus, so that they can learn physics, so that they can go out and actually do engineering, I think it would be feasible to have entry-level training in general etiquette and ethics as a prerequisite before someone can learn rigorously scientific flirting.
[-][anonymous]12y80

Obviously pressured sex happens.

I am simply saying its not a good tactic in the context of situations that PUA usually focuses on.

Note that pressure =/= nagging. For it to be pressure you need to have some social or physical leverage over the other person. Nagging dosen't imply you have either and in their absence the word brings up associations of begging. It is hard to gain great leverage on people of high social status.

1CuSithBell12y
My point was not about PUA. You said: You also talked about PUA, but the above is a simple claim of fact which is incorrect.
4[anonymous]12y
The post was a response to: This was given as a better example of a potential PUA tactic that could be unethical. I was implicitly taking and critiquing the course of action as a tactic a PUA would or would not adopt based on how effective or ineffective it was. I thought it obvious, but looking back I see I should have made an explicit mention of PUA in the comment.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to go further and say that in large part the whole point of PUA is to bed Carols. Alices are up for a one night stand anyway, so manipulating them to suspend their usual protective strategies and engage in a one night stand with you would be as pointless as peeling a banana twice.

That sounds wrong. I dabbled in pickup a little bit and I would gladly accept a 2x boost in my attractiveness to Alices in exchange for total loss of attractiveness to Carols. If you think success with Alices is easy, I'd guess that either you didn't try a lot, or you're extremely attractive and don't know it :-)

When you click on the envelope underneath your karma score in the right sidebar, you are taken to a page that displays both private messages as well as replies to your comments.

Also, please stop posting. It has become clear that the Less Wrong community is not interested in what you have to say. You might consider seeking out another internet forum that will be more receptive to your contributions; I expect this will be more satisfying from both your perspective and ours.

Now that this thread has gathered around a thousand comments, and with presumably two more such threads ahead of us, let's have a poll to help us figure out whether deciding to discuss such subjects as gender and politics was a good idea.

All things considered, has this comment thread made LessWrong more or less valuable to you? (ETA: This is excluding Luke's original post, and relative to what you would have expected the site to be like if the comment thread had not taken place, not relative to what it would be like if the comment thread disappeared now.)

See the child comments for the poll options. If neither applies, don't vote.

Vote this comment up if this comment thread has made LessWrong less valuable to you.

All things considered, has this comment thread made LessWrong more or less valuable to you? (ETA: This is excluding Luke's original post, and relative to what you would have expected the site to be like if the comment thread had not taken place, not relative to what it would be like if the comment thread disappeared now.)

Less. A bunch of bickering about ethics with almost no actual practical content describing the world. Basically it is embarrassing to be associated with.

3achiral12y
I agree that this whole thread, while admittedly I have been following it myself, is a net negative for LW. It's my contention that (1) some people will be attracted to PUA tenets with a largely negative outlook regarding women, (2) some people will be attracted to PUA tenets with a largely positive outlook regarding women (3) some people will just organically figure it out without any significant use of literature and (4) people that enjoy reading/writing/debating about this will continue to do that and may or may not actually pursue relationships. I don't think lukeprog's writing is going to substantially change anyone's inclinations or abilities in this area because relationships and dating are something one learns by doing and becoming, not talking and thinking.

Thank you for this poll!

I would like to endorse an idea that there should be a separate PUA discussion post. It's acceptable if LW-ers want to discuss PUA at length, but the main disutility I get from it, is that it seems to constantly rear its head in posts that aren't explicitly about PUA (such as this one.)

I would have loved to have been involved in a discussion on the original post topic, and do not at all think that the subjects of gender and relationships should be discouraged. I just think it would make more sense if there were a separate thread for PUA-related discussion, and any time someone tried to bring up PUA in a non-PUA post they were referred to the PUA post.

I would post it myself, but I doubt I have the karma to handle the inevitable downvoting that would ensue without going deep into the negatives.

EDITED: see below

I got to agree here. having a single discussion thread with PUA would let out some steam, and if some people feel wierded out/ threatened by it, they can just not read the thread. As it is, avoiding the topic seems very hard, since it comes up almost every time relationships, polyamory. dark arts, or rational social skills are mentioned. This makes the tabooing of PUA pretty moot.

I'm pretty okay with modding posts with PUA outside of the designated area, though, if only because it's so damn mindkilling.

[-][anonymous]12y150

got to agree here. having a single discussion thread with PUA would let out some steam, and if some people feel wierded out/ threatened by it, they can just not read the thread. As it is, avoiding the topic seems very hard, since it comes up almost every time relationships, polyamory. dark arts, or rational social skills are mentioned. This makes the tabooing of PUA pretty moot.

Indeed PUA discussion has proven impossible to avoid without tabooing relationship/romance to the same extent as politics (which is something I advocated should be done in a different comment here).

I like this suggestion. One thread where the beliefs, practice and theory of PUA can be discussed. Actually to make any progress whatsoever, I think we need to go further, lets make that thread explicitly devoid of any ethical recommendations implied or explicit.

A thread that just discusses the theories, practices and beliefs of the PUA community. First establish what they are, then how well they map to reality.

Only after this is done open a separate thread where we discuss ethical implications and recommendations related to PUA. It has been demonstrated time and time again since at least 2008, that LW/OB b... (read more)

8pjeby12y
I'd almost as soon we just banned the ethical discussion entirely; as that's the part that's actually mindkilling. People with "PUA=bad" or "PUA=good" labels basically trash the place over that argument, and neither are particularly interested in listening to the "PUA=lots of different stuff with varying levels of good, bad, and effective-ness" folks. All in all, we might get rid of some of the need for the "PUA=evil misogynist manipulation" rants by banning the "PUA=good, righteous savior of downtrodden oppressed men" ones (and vice versa). There are plenty enough people here who've shown themselves capable of avoiding either trap; we just need someone who can be trusted to swing the banhammer hard on comments that are more about signaling who they're for and against, than they are about informing or problem-solving. Actually, I suppose it's not really a problem of ethics discussion per se, just that ethics is a useful wedge topic for partisans on either side to get their foot in the door. Hm. Maybe we'd be better off just not answering partisan posts. I suspect that (counter to my intention), trying to moderate partisans on either side just prolongs the amount of ranting the forum is subjected to. If I'd just downvoted people (instead of trying to educate them), it might've been better for all concerned.
5cousin_it12y
I like the idea of having a designated PUA discussion thread, and I absolutely love the idea of making that thread explicitly ethics-free. The idea seems good enough to just try it and see what happens! Do you want to write that post (in the discussion area, I guess) and lay down the rules?
7RomanDavis12y
You've got the karma for it. Why not you?
4cousin_it12y
Thanks for the offer! Konkvistador has a prior claim to the idea, so I'll do that if he/she prefers me to do that.
5[anonymous]12y
I'm considering posting such a thread, but I'm thinking very very carefully if this is a good idea. It seems best to me to wait a few days, perhaps even consider a meta thread or two in preparation. Discussion in the absence of ethics, dosen't really cover discussion that may hurt the community image or the image of posters, at least not explicitly. And while the current situation is intolerable I don't want to cause any damage with a botched fix.

See here. I'm inclining more and more toward the opinion that this topic-cluster simply doesn't belong here, any more than (other) controversial contemporary political issues do. It's too fraught with (perceived) implications for tribal struggles that people (even unconsciously) feel themselves to be party to.

In all honesty, I'm not even terribly enthused about Luke's proposed sequence being here, especially in Main. (It might well be okay in Discussion.) It sends the signal that LW is full of people who have trouble with these sorts of relationships. Maybe that's true, but it's not exactly something one would want to showcase, it seems to me.

1cousin_it12y
Thanks for replying. I think you're right.
3MixedNuts12y
Upvoted, but... it looks like the kind of shiny clever idea nerds love and that blows up in their faces big time. "Purely factual questions discussed separately from ethics" sounds like something Paul Graham would pat you on the back for. Specific instances thereof, such as "Do people have more sex if they ignore body language expressing discomfort?" are significantly less tasteful. The problem is that this is a public forum. In our ivory towers - inside our own heads, and with other people who like to toy with weird ideas - we can totally argue that genocide is legitimate if there's a genetic disorder spreading whose carriers only have male children with the disorder. But we don't expect it to be harmless to discuss that in front of the neonazis (or even ourselves, really). There are people I don't want looking at a factual discussion of how to get away with rape.
9Nornagest12y
My cursor was literally hovering over the upvote button from the first paragraph on... and then I got to the last sentence, which completely reversed my view of it. Then I went back and parsed it more carefully, and now it looks to me like there's some pretty sketchy rhetoric in there. Specifically: there's mindkilling ideas and then there's ideas which represent a physical propagation risk, and while PUA is undoubtedly the former, framing it with rape and genocide implies the latter. Now, I suppose it might look like that to some of its more extreme opponents, those who see it as not just squicky or disrespectful but actively dangerous. But that's not the consensus, and there are substantial differences in the way we should be approaching it if it was. On the other hand, if you'd cast your objection in terms of signaling or associational problems, I'd be right there with you. I'm pretty much neutral on PUA as such, but it's an incredibly polarizing topic, and this isn't a big enough site that we can discuss stuff that volatile in public and expect it not to reflect substantially on the site as a whole.
7cousin_it12y
For onlookers wondering about the genetic disorder thing, it was discussed in Evolving to Extinction. The relevant part: It just occurred to me that such a situation can rectify itself without the need for genocide :-) If females can detect males carrying the segregation-distorter, they will avoid mating with such males, because having female children is a reproductive advantage in a population where males outnumber females. Or am I getting confused again?
5lessdazed12y
It seems easier to evolve a preference for incest.
4NancyLebovitz12y
There would also be strong selective pressure for any genes which can override the segregation-distorter, even if the females can't recognize the males which carry it.
6lessdazed12y
A modest proposal: If mothers made a habit of snacking on (each other's) litters of all sons, that would counteract the problem. That wouldn't require being able to differentiate among adult males, just between male and female children. If the species takes a long time to wean children and doesn't reproduce until that process ends, this works better. Mice, pigs, rabbits etc. (animals with large litters) already eat weak children fairly often, so this is somewhat plausible.
5wedrifid12y
I love lesswrong!
2lessdazed12y
Rather than rely on females recognizing things about males, what about genes that capitalize on the difference between regular males and those with the disorder - sisters! Females could more greatly than presently value aggression (this would only need a boost, the trait already exists), and a gene could make females intervene to break up their brothers' fights. Young males with the disorder would tear each other to shreds or be too timid to reproduce, and males without the disorder would have sisters preventing them from killing each other.
2wedrifid12y
"Strong" for sure. Unfortunately for the species it would have to emerge fully functional in the time it takes for the species to evolve to extinction. Not so easy.
3wedrifid12y
Almost certainly not! That's valuable information needed to calibrate optimal seduction technique, even for a PUA of perfect soullessness.
2wedrifid12y
Certainly something to keep in mind if Luke goes and posts a "Part 2" on the subject. He (or someone else) should also post a corresponding "trolling about morals" thread so as to minimize the damage.
1TheOtherDave12y
I'm indifferent to the primary point, but curious about a tangent -- do you believe that LW is capable of creating that first thread? Or only that, if it did so, that would help?
2[anonymous]12y
I belive most LWers are capable of this. However those who aren't make this in my opinion very difficult for the community to pull off. And then there are the signalling concerns, one big reason behind the politics taboo was for LW to not look bad. This is why I previously proposed tabooing the subject (romance ect.) in the same way we did for that other problematic topic. I also found someone's proposal to set up a rather elitist and private mailing list for certain delicate and difficult discussion appealing. If LW did that we might actually make some progress on the issue for a change in that we would at least unambiguously establish what people's maps of reality are (allowing everyone involved to update accordingly) and engage in a, you know, dialogue instead of speaking past each other and slipping into factionalism.
3lessdazed12y
A post entitled "[censored] Romantic Relationships" is non-PUA? That's assuming conclusions to all kinds of open questions. At the least all non-PUA relationship posts would require giant Happy Death Spiral warnings atop them.
3daenerys12y
Good point. I should have phrased better. I will edit my post to say "posts that aren't explicitly about PUA. It's been awhile since I read the OP, and honestly I forgot about all the social interaction stuff that was posted. Being poly, I focused on the first part, and was sorta hoping there would be a discussion about different relationship styles. :)

Meh. It's not like anyone forced me to read the whole thread (which I haven't done).

Vote this comment up if this comment thread has made LessWrong more valuable to you.

5TheOtherDave12y
If you're going to conduct such a poll, I'd recommend asking a similar question about some other thread on some other topic (or possibly several) to act as a control group. (I would also recommend these be staggered in time in the hopes of simulating independent measurement, and the results reported as ratios to the number of posts in the thread.)
4kpreid12y
I dislike the loud and bad-feelings-producing retread of old topics that the comment thread appears (I have skimmed and sampled only) to have become, but I specifically wish that posts like this one are not prohibited/avoided in the future.
4Dorikka12y
Apologies for cluttering up the poll area, but it seems like relevant information that I haven't read much of the comment thread at all because I don't think it'll be valuable to me. If I had to break it down, I'd say that I don't expect it to be particularly useful or interesting to me.
3lessdazed12y
More valuable because it's the weekend and I will read most but not all of it, but bad for signal/noise ratio overall.

I was trying to explain a broader social pattern into which I see his [i.e. mine - V.] behavior falling, to the person who'd expressed skepticism about his concerns.

For someone who wields the word "prejudice" as derogatory, you tend to assume an awful lot about people whom you don't know at all except for a few paragraphs of their writing about impersonal and abstract topics.

I may be too hard on her-- I was doing the jump of assuming that if she really wanted to be happy, she'd be using more efficient selection methods, but that could be another of those bad advice schemas.

Actually, you're missing the part where her selection method may well be optimal, given her goals. She gets excitement, sex, and drama from the "jerk" boyfriends, and companionship, emotional, and other kinds of support from her orbiter(s). (PUA terminology for guys who hang around a girl hoping she'll realize he's perfect and stop dating the ... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y80

It fixes part of it but I don't think you capture what's really going on. To use a fresh aspect of the concept of the redneck, as Nancy points out "redneck" has a regional component. MW's definition of "redneck" for example, is: "a white member of the Southern rural laboring class". That's an aspect of what you would call Redneck(O). So when you write:

My point was that when people use the term, they predominately use it to mean, and understand it to men, Redneck(S) not Redneck(O).

you're claiming that when people use the te... (read more)

Actually, your post has caused me to think that a good descriptivist dictionary would include stereotypes if they're common meanings. This doesn't mean that anyone would have the guts (or possibly lack of good sense-- that lack might be equivalent to guts) to produce such a dictionary.

A concept might be in many people's minds, and yet be inaccurate. A dictionary might note that while listing the concept.

As for redneck, I'd say it consistently has a regional connotation-- it's not just about doing outdoor work.

5[anonymous]12y
Merriam Webster and the other good descriptivist dictionaries do include meanings that match particular stereotypes when they are common meanings, which they rarely but occasionally are. But importantly, it is only particular stereotypes of a given thing that become meanings - it has to be this way, in order to avoid confusion. For example, the verb "to jew" (which you can look up in any sufficiently comprehensive dictionary) has a meaning which matches a particular stereotype of Jews. That particular stereotype is not "the" stereotype of Jews, because to say it was "the" stereotype would be to imply that there is only one stereotype, and there are many stereotypes of Jews. Also importantly, meanings corresponding to stereotypes are not automatically generated whenever stereotypes arise. It has to be this way, because it's common that many stereotypes of a given thing arise, and if a meaning were automatically generated for each stereotype, then it would be difficult to tell, among all the stereotypes, which stereotype was meant when the word was used. Nor does a meaning automatically arise that includes all stereotypes together, as we know from the example of the verb "to jew". Rather, on occasion, certain stereotypes are adopted as meanings. It doesn't automatically happen, and it ought not blithely be assumed to have happened. Here's another pair of examples. Similarly to the verb "to jew", there is also the verb "to dog", which corresponds to one particular stereotype about dogs. And the verb "to wolf" (as in to wolf down) corresponds to another particular stereotype about wolves (and, as it happens, about their close relatives the dogs). Had linguistic history taken a different turn, the verbs "to dog" and "to wolf" might have had entirely different meanings, or might not have existed at all.

forced by Aumann to agree

Whenever I see people say things like this, I always imagine Old Man Aumann standing behind them with a gun.

[-][anonymous]12y80

But it does not seem like an entirely different category -- what people despise about American rednecks, when that term is used pejoratively, is their bigotry.

Looking from the outside it seems to me "Rednecks" are despised because they are poor and dysfunctional and don't have any extenuating circumstances (at least ones modern society would find acceptable) for being so.

[-][anonymous]12y170

That's an improvement on Sewing Machine's claim, but I don't think it goes far enough. Groups despise other groups. "Rednecks" form a group, it's predictably despised by another group. The low status are despised by the high status. Rednecks are low status, they're despised by SWPLs, who are high status. The term "redneck" refers to the condition of their neck, which is a way of referring to their occupation and therefore to their station in life. Someone with a red neck is originally probably a caucasian who works out of doors, likely to be looked down on by caucasians who work indoors. Probably rural, likely to be looked down on by the urban (who are urbane, sophisticated, in contrast to the rednecks who are rustic, unsophisticated).

People love to look down on other people. It's a pastime. It's a way to magnify one's own feeling of having high status. There's a site called "people of walmart" which is devoted to the pastime of looking down on other people. A lot of humor, possibly most humor, is devoted to ridiculing a group to which one does not belong. It's always easy to come up with rationalizations for the contempt after the fact.

Personally I prefer the humor of self-ridicule. I assume that the SWPL site is self-ridicule of high status whites. I also assume that Jeff Foxworthy's "you might be a redneck" routine is self-ridicule of rednecks. In contrast, "people of walmart" is not self-ridicule.

Who had greater freedom of speech: Modern novelists and scriptwriters, or Elizabethan novelists and playwrights?

Modern novelists and scriptwriters do.

You never provided a single piece of evidence that Elizabethan novelists and playwrights had greater freedom of speech. It was a completely unsubstantiated claim -- and a ludicrous one given how well known the political restriction in free speech were at the time. You also completely refused to acknowledge all the detailed pieces of data for specifics bits of censorship or political pressure in Shakespear... (read more)

2NancyLebovitz12y
Are attacks by police and the justice system which seem likely to be racially based included under race hate attacks?

That assumes someone who initially has $1, and in that case it's certainly true. If on the other hand you initially have, say, $10k...

log(10.5k) - log(10k) ≈ 0.02

0.15 * (log(1.01M) - log(10k)) ≈ 0.3

The crossover point based on this system is $191. Less than that, and you do better with $500. More than that, and you'd try for the million.

Luke, I think you'e being pursued by a Sheila.

I don't find "do women dig jerks?" particularly mind-killing, or at least, not here (much less than the ethics of PUA, political parties, elections, welfare, taxes, Occupy Wall Street, race and intelligence, Israel and Palestine ...); I don't have strong opinions on the issue, and hearing someone speak on that topic doesn't allow me to categorize them into a clearly-defined group.

I can't clearly see any "sides" on the issue (two possible sides are of course "women are stupid and dig jerks so I hate them" and "anybody who criticizes women is stupid", but I'm not seeing either of those here, the sides are more "it's complicated" and "it's not that simple").

"it's not that simple"

There's no "that" for it to be either that simple or not that simple.

(Implicit modifier A) women (implicit modifier B) dig (whatever that means exactly) jerks (whatever that means exactly).

Modifier A can be "all", or "most", or "the most attractive ones", or whatever.

Modifier B can be "most days of the week", "most years of their lives", or whatever.

"Dig" can mean "prefer ceteris paribus", "will only have one night stands with", "will stay with them even if the guy hits them", "strongly prefer at all times", "prefer for all types of relationships", or whatever.

"Jerks" can mean "people who are more assertive than average", "people who try and make them feel bad about themselves", "people who have killed a man", "people who wear motorcycle jackets", "people who frequently brag", or whatever.

"Women dig jerks" provides an opportunity to construct an obviously (or not obviously) true or false meaning to something other people say, depending on how right or wrong one wants them to be. It allows room to always easily be able to interpret an interlocutor's words to mean that they are innately evil or hopelessly misguided.

That said, people actually do disagree on the substance of the issue.

I don't see how it helps. I think the idea is wrong, not the wording. This situation also seems somewhat analogous to that with your use of Aumann agreement term: drawing a loose analogy with a technical tool that isn't really relevant.

(To alleviate the usual worry, I note that I upvoted the post itself, and this trivial isolated point has no bearing on overall impression.)

I would prefer not to do that. (At least not directly. Having this oblique conversation in public is fine.)

Others are involuntarily celibate; perhaps they can't find or attract suitable mates. This problem can often be solved by learning and practicing social skills.

What ought one do when the problem is not solved by social skills?

I seem to have a tendency to feel extremely inadequate about any skill at which i am not noticeably better than everyone I know about. Due to this quirk of my psychology, I spent a significant portion of my life believing myself to have horrendous social skills. And, for a long time, I attributed my social and sexual failings to t... (read more)

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9Sarokrae12y
Have you tried reading PUA-Game material (and then selectively applying the ethical parts of it)? I could /feel/ my attraction to my OH increasing just by getting him to Game me. It turns out that making friends and attracting mates requires different sorts of social behaviour. For example, women seeking mates tend to be very status-aware, but you can get on with friends perfectly well without any ability to signal high status. If you felt inadequate very often, that itself could mean you were projecting low status and driving off mates.
7EphemeralNight12y
I might, if I had any idea where to find said material (rather that just people talking about the material), or how to identify the optimal starting point within the material. (Or anyone to apply it to.)
5Viliam_Bur12y
It depends on what data you need. My general recommendation would be: * "The Blueprint Decoded" -- a video about pickup and social skills in general that gives you a greater context, instead of just throwing thousand random details at you. (Buy, or find a torrent.) * Married Man Sex Life -- a blog about maintaining attraction in marriage. I recommend reading the older articles (before he published a book) because they seem to have much better signal:noise ratio. From all the PUA stuff I have seen, these two seem highest-quality to me. The first one is like "the best of PUA". The second one contains additional information about human chemistry; the author is a nurse. Both of them seem to me ethically OK, but because different people have different degrees of OK-ness, let me add a data point: The author of the second one has a wife who is also reading the blog and commenting on it; and they seem to have a very good relationship. This is also an evidence that the advice is long-term-relationship compatible.
1EphemeralNight12y
Thanks for actually providing a link. Being told to "just google it" gets frustrating. However... I started at the beginning of the archive, the oldest posts, and I am reading them in order. Granted, I have only yet read a handful of posts, but I can't imagine a person who thinks like the author writes having a worthwhile life. What he advocates seems so hollow and dishonest that I've had a steadily growing sense of disgust since I began reading. Frankly, I think I'd rather be alone forever than relate to people in the way he seems to, because I would feel just as alone either way. This is an example of the "good" version of PUA material? I am going to continue reading in case there is useful information, despite my disgust, but I haven't seen any yet.

What he advocates seems so hollow and dishonest

Be specific. Taboo "hollow". Taboo "dishonest".

The important information from that website, and from PUA materials in general, is that (heterosexual) women have sexual preferences, too. Those preferences were shaped by evolution. The preferred traits would statistically increase reproductive success in ancient environment (which is not necessarily true today).

This should not be a surprise, unless you believe that men are beasts, but women are pure angelic souls that only happen to have a body. (Problem is, that idea is implicitly present in our culture. That does not make it true.) However, many (heterosexual) men either don't understand women's preferences, or keep forgetting; simply because those are not their preferences.

Unlike men's preferences, which are mostly about the shape of the body, women's preferences are more behavior-based. This is a problem, because a man, despite once having been selected by a women, can simply forget to display the same behavior that made him attractive to her. He will not notice that he is doing something wrong! She will notice that something is wrong (she feels less attracted)... (read more)

Translation into usual Less Wrong language:

Men and women all have elephants and riders. While female riders are not intrinsically different from male riders, female elephants have lots of differences to male elephants, which is expected if the elephant is the animal hardware/operating system that we are run on.

Therefore, just as to understand and be successful in your own decision you must be aware of your biases and cognitive quirks, to successfully interact with others you must be aware of theirs. Most biases are shared across the human population, but sexual partner preferences are obviously not. Also, elephants can't be reasoned with: you correct elephant biases by tricking the elephant. You don't adjust well for the priming effect by trying to out-reason your instincts. You adjust for the priming effect by making sure you're primed correctly for achieving your aims.

It's important therefore to distinguish between tricking the elephant and tricking the rider. Tricking the rider is usually considered unethical, but tricking the elephant can be a case of correcting someone else's biases for them: the wife thinks (rider, or attachment part of elephant + rationalisation) she should... (read more)

7wedrifid12y
My wife really didn't appreciate this when I explained it to her. Can't work out what went wrong in that conversation...
4DaFranker12y
Beisutsukai unlock Option III at level 25: Get the rider to look down and see the elephant, craft reins for the elephant, and cooperate to steer the elephant. Also, at level 45, they unlock the legendary Option IV (both riders must have this ability to use successfully): Both riders perform a combo-takedown on the elephants and develop low-maintenance long-term elephant-control plans that guarantees self-perpetuating elephant attraction and automatic steering (e.g. by training the elephants to follow the road/eachother on their own without further direction). Incidentally, all Beisutsukai unlock Option 0 at level 5: Find a mate that already knows how to ride the elephant in the first place.
2Sarokrae12y
I have an elephant riding strategy, it involves throwing rocks at the environment and surrounding elephants to entice/scare it into going the right way. It's kinda hard work, but elephants don't really do reins... (How do people actually steer elephants, out of interest?)
2DaFranker12y
Two methods are anchoring and positive reinforcement. Availability control is also usually very effective. Essentially, the same stuff as for behavior/habit training works best, since as per my best model you're essentially training a psychological/biological behavior there too. That's more for "training" elephants though. Direct, in-the-moment steering requires actually training the elephant to respond to steering by whatever reins you craft, in the first place, otherwise it's very hard and sketchy (and usually, as you say, involves throwing rocks). I forgot where, but I recall reading a study that concluded that making one kind of sexual stimulus more "present" and reducing the availability/presence of other stimuli would increase the natural response of men to that stimulus later on (with long-term effects) in those subjects. I'm not sure of the specifics anymore, but for "sexual stimulus" think "pictures of mostly-naked ladies in X", for X being wearing a specific item of clothing, fetish setup, or particular situation/setting. Most studies I've found regarding such things seem to be crafted exclusively around men, so it's pretty hard to find good "official" scientific data for women in that regard. Most of the data apparently comes from PUA material, unfortunately.
5wedrifid12y
Indeed, it is pseudo-endocrinology instead. (I usually take these with the same grain of alt I take the other 'layman science' explanations.)
2V_V12y
Who would have thought? Which culture? I suppose that this misconception might be present in cultures where women are considered little more than chattel, but if you live in a culture where women freely choose their partners, you would have to be stupid or delusional to think they don't have sexual preferences. Actually, it looks like pseudoscience. Just throwing in the names of a few neurotransmitters and hormones doesn't make a claim scientifically supported.

I suppose that this misconception might be present in cultures where women are considered little more than chattel, but if you live in a culture where women freely choose their partners, you would have to be stupid or delusional to think they don't have sexual preferences.

The idea of individual female sexual preferences is OK, as long as they remain mysterious.

The outrage starts at the moment when someone suggests that they are statistically predictable, and gives specific examples. This is quickly labeled as "offensive to women". And in some sense, the label is correct -- being unpredictable is higher status than being predictable. On the other hand, there is no harm in saying that male sexual preferences are statistically predictable.

I suggest a thought experiment -- imagine starting a discussion in LW Open Thread about which female sexual preferences are most frequent, and what is the easiest way to trigger them. Then, watch the downvotes and offended complaints. (This is just a thought experiment, don't do it really.) The topic is probably instrumentally important to majority of LW readers, yet it will never get the same space as e.g. a rational toothpaste choice. So there is some kind of a taboo, isn't it?

4V_V12y
I'm under the impression that hypergamy is common knowledge, but I suppose that it may be politically incorrect to discuss it in public in certain subcultures. Other aspects of female sexual preferences, like social intelligence, athletic physique, masculine facial bone structure, deep voice, etc. are also well known and not so controversial to discuss.
2DaFranker12y
LW might not be the best place for such an experiment, even as a thought experiment. I think this should actually be experimented in some other, "general-population" forum, perhaps with a control test in a different one replacing "female" with "male" for comparison framing. It would still obviously not be study-material, but it certainly sounds fun.
2EphemeralNight12y
Um, wow. Clearly you've pattern-matched to something completely different than the objection I was trying to convey. I'm so not in any way offended by sexual behavior reductionism. To me, the author of MMSL only seems to care about creating something that looks like an intimate relationship from the outside. And he's other-optimizing; very egregiously so. My revulsion stems from my belief that I wouldn't be any happier living the way he advocates than I am now. I want something that feels like an intimate relationship from the inside, and the sort of relationship he depicts as ideal wouldn't. That's what I mean by hollow. I also doubt I could ever feel safe with someone with whom, to use the metaphor, appealing to the elephant is more effective than appealing to the rider, but he seems to live in an isolated bubble where he only interacts with other riders through the intermediary of their elephants, which I would find just as lonely as my current life of no interaction at all. That's what I mean by dishonest.
7Sarokrae12y
I'm totally with you there, in that it wouldn't be any fun to be in a relationship with someone who wasn't aware of this stuff. You have to be aware though that sometimes appealing to the elephant IS more effective than appealing to the rider. It is not possible to consciously reason myself into being turned on. I am /not/ in conscious control of my hormone emitters. I need my environment to influence them for me. Even if I'm consciously aware that you're a great guy and super smart and all that, if you don't press my elephant buttons, so to speak, being in a relationship with you just isn't any fun. Placating the elephant isn't a terminal value for sufficiently awake people, but for most people it's an important instrumental value. Also, the impression he usually gives is not that he interacts with only his wife's elephant, just that his rider-rider interaction is fine and he never struggled with it. He also occasionally gives advice for female riders regarding male elephants. Also, take it from me that this stuff adds to rather than detracts from intimate relationships. From the inside. (If it helps you believe me, this is what Athol's wife thinks.)
1wedrifid12y
No you aren't. You're saying something entirely different---a mix of orthogonal points and contradictory ones---but using the form "I'm with you there" because it is typically an amazingly effective tool for leading around and getting along with metaphorical elephants. Impossible is such a strong term. I'd suggest possible but completely unrealistically implausible, possibly take years of unnatural mental training and being ultimately far less satisfying than just finding a mate that is actually attractive.
4Sarokrae12y
Would it be offensive to claim that I'm a woman and I can't help doing that, re your first comment? (The "it wasn't me it was my elephant!" defence?) I've subtly edited the phrasing so it's less objectionable. And I suppose Buddhists have meditated their way into their reptilian-level hardware before. Though I'm not sure it'd be worth a lifetime of meditation training just so I can think myself into releasing testosterone and oestrogen and dopamine ;) Instrumental and terminal values and all that. Though if I could release dopamine at will then it's the wireheading discussion all over again...
2wedrifid12y
I imagine some women may conceivably be offended by the stereotyping. I wouldn't have said "objectionable" so much as "fascinating example of exactly the kind of influence technique either a PUA or business social skills adviser may recommend". Especially since any one of those things can be injected far more simply routinely. Purely mental wireheading tactics are just terribly inefficient these days!
5Sarokrae12y
This conversation is making my elephant very confused... Based on interpreting my reactions, did I just get negged? (more power to you if I did)
4DaFranker12y
You're letting your elephant loose on this stuff? And it actually moves? Darn. Mine's just been standing there munching on some rationality leaves all along, completely uninterested. It's more annoyed about the rider jumping in excitement on its back, if anything.
3wedrifid12y
Analyzing... ...Not in the pure sense of "negative compliment". Because, well, I seem to have neglected the 'compliment' part. Let's see... You have beautiful eyelashes... Are they real? Nevertheless, the style of interaction could be used in a similar social role to the neg - that is, demonstrating playfulness, arrogance and a willingness to assert themselves higher in status (at least for the purpose of that one social transaction.) To a certain extent there is the reverse of a neg. Surface level cavalier contradiction which nevertheless serves to overall lend support to your position. In particular the replies in the grandparent could be replaced with "Not to me.", "Oh, no, I didn't want to imply that you were being objectionable and using that strategy is OK." and "You are totally right." respectively without changing the object level meaning drastically. Yet that would have conveyed an entirely invalid connotations of supplication and wishy-washy backtracking. Complimentary-contradiction and then flippant elaboration avoids that frame. In summary: No, but with that style of interaction adding negs would be overkill!
2Sarokrae12y
...I think I'm just going to leave it at "you are far too good at this". :P
8wedrifid12y
If that is what you really want then by all means go ahead. To the external observer that just looks like someone sitting in the corner sulking because the universe doesn't give them what they want.
4RomanDavis12y
I.E. If what you want is magic, magic won't work.
2DaFranker12y
Isn't that a false dilemma? That's just one relative comparison, which is meant to illustrate just how much he dislikes that particular option by visibly placing and signalling it as even lower than something else generally understood as being a net negative option. Basically: "I've considered this, but so far found that it was even worse than other options I've already considered, so I'll keep looking" - is what I understand as the main point behind the wording he used.
2wedrifid12y
Please imagine I inserted "would rather" in appropriate places in the grandparent so that the token relativity is duly represented in the declared observations of the typical observer.
8Kindly12y
I didn't really look at much of MMSL either, but I did notice an encouraging sign: the author's wife is listed as a coauthor and adds occasional remarks to the posts, which if nothing else suggests that she reads them. This puts an upper bound on how dishonest it can possibly be.
1wedrifid12y
Yes, it requires that two people be lying about something for their mutual benefit, instead of just one. Two people is practically a conspiracy! (We need to use another term for where the actual upper bound doesn't change that much at all but the probability of a moderate amount of deception is present is reduced.)
6Kindly12y
I was assuming that "hollow and dishonest" referred to the author being hollow and dishonest to his wife. And in fact I don't think this can be done very effectively when you document your hollowness and dishonesty on a blog your wife reads.
6Sarokrae12y
MMSL is my personal source and what I had in mind as something that worked when I recommended just googling it. Most Game material sounds weird without being able to put the ideas into practise, which is why I recommended you search for material more applicable to you: I was able to get instant feedback on ideas by getting or prompting my OH or myself (depending on material) to try them. I don't recommend the start of MMSL though, it sounds cynical because it is; that part is mainly aimed at men who are married to wives who aren't attracted to them, who really need to do something drastic if they want to keep their relationships. I'm not actually sure I'd recommend the blog at all to someone not in a long term relationship; in terms of referring to the science of attraction it doesn't do much different from sites like Hooking Up Smart, which afaics is information of a similar quality aimed at a different audience (college students, in this case). I'm sure there are more sites of a similar quality out there. (Look for references to Helen Fisher), whose research is most commonly cited). Apologies if the google advice isn't useful, looks like I failed to avoid other-optimising after all! (I usually take a "just google it" approach to these things myself.) ETA: if you're having ethical "disgust" responses, it may help to keep firmly in mind the elephant/rider (in the usual LW language) or hamster/agent distinction. Manipulation is done from the rider to the other party's elephant. This can be done with or without the other rider's permission, and the ethics of the action where done without permission may well depend on how much the other rider is in control of their own elephant. In the specific case advocated by the opening posts of MMSL, the wife who says things like "I love you but I'm not in love with you" or cheats on their husband without knowing why, has an actively harmful elephant, whose rider is unaware of how to control the elephant, or worse, vehemently d
2DaFranker12y
Thanks for the insights. This is shining more light on just what it is I'm looking for in a relationship, too, which should help me greatly in improving the shape of my sweet-spot-in-personspace.
1Manfred12y
There are torrents of it. Someone linked a torrent of a bunch of books by some famous PUA a while back, I found it fairly interesting, but "what was true wasn't new." It may be helpful in building your confidence to actually go out and try things, which is the hard part but also rather key.
6Alicorn12y
I did not say that. I looked at the chatlog to be sure, and I did not say that.
5DaFranker12y
This is my primary problem. "Meeting people that I can interact well with, regardless of the mate-suitability criterion" is a fairly/relatively trivial (and different) problem, but all my approaches to meeting people generate massive amounts of noise-results, such that finding a combo-match of (person-I-could-find-suitable) + (person-that-could-find-me-suitable) + (meeting-said-person) + (sufficient-common-knowledge-barrier) statistically becomes very hard. For each of the above "suitable mate met" events, I would have to generate tens of thousands of "person met" events. Considering the amount of time required to generate these events, and the relative resulting chance of a payoff, it becomes trivially obvious that my time is better spent otherwise (such as reducing the noise through learning better event-generation behaviors) since it computes to rather low expected value.
5A1987dM12y
If p(X would be a suitable mate|you met X) is actually around 10^-4, then maybe trying to lower your standards (if you can manage to do that) might help.
3DaFranker12y
Well, widening / loosening the "margin" or distribution of suitability criteria is indeed one of the valid approaches, but one this is still only part of the equation for the problem AFAICT. Yes, currently, to my model, that P() really is in that ballpark. I'm currently hitting (with P>.98) way off my current "sweet spot in personspace", with few hits ever getting closer to it and forming a cloud around a completely different area, so my best WAG pretty much give those numbers when trying to project how many I'd have to meet to expect at least one statistical outlier to hit the margin. Making said sweet spot larger is something that would indeed help a lot, but doing so without reducing the total expected payoff of this whole calculation is also non-trivial, for reasons I hope are obvious. I strongly suspect that my current noise is in no small part due to my current approaches / general behaviors. There's at bare flat minimum 1 in 50 people (assuming IQ stats are any indication) with sufficient reasoning ability for me to find them very interesting, of those at least 1 in 3 is using that ability in a way that I probably wouldn't perceive as noise (so I'd probably notice quickly enough), my preferences / personspace "sweet spot" check would eliminate around (WAG: intuitions from personspace stuff) 80-95% of those remaining. Which means that, by those numbers and assumptions, around 1 in 750 to 1 in 3000 would be a valid match if I were meeting persons according to a uniform personspace probability distribution and breaking the sufficient-common-knowledge barrier in a proportionally uniform manner over persons met. The clear difference indicates that I'm probably doing something wrong, so the most efficient way I know of solving the problem is to find what I'm doing wrong and fix it first, not just meeting more people. IMO, 1 in 750 is not a particularly constraining margin, especially if you consider that under ideal circumstances you should do the reverse of wh
5NancyLebovitz12y
I believe that this is a serious problem in itself. It's probably undercutting your quality of life in many ways, In particular, it's probably on your mind when you're in relationships, distracting you from what's actually going on between you and the other person. Cognitive behavioral therapy might help. It goes into detail about undercutting that sort of belief. More generally, I believe that the crucial thing is to believe that it's safe to be on your own side. Getting to that belief can be amazingly difficult (believing that you shouldn't be on your own side is probably the result of gut-level fear from repeated attacks), but it's worth the trouble.
4Pablo12y
Ask someone who knows you and has seen you interacting with women to give you honest feedback. Such feedback will help you spot the actual causes of your inability to attract suitable mates more than anything anyone could tell you here.
1A1987dM12y
When I ask that, the answer is usually “I have no idea, you are not ugly nor unpleasant nor stupid after all” or “You just haven't found the right one yet.” (Oh, and the people who give me the former answer are almost invariably already taken, or otherwise not looking for a relationship at the moment.)
2Pablo12y
When you approached these people, did you make it clear that you were looking for honest feedback, however painful it might be?
2A1987dM12y
Well... I though I had, but now that I think about that... (OTOH, I usually ask that when we're both drunk, so that --I'd expect-- there are fewer filters in place than usual.) I've also created an account on whatiswrongwithme.com and share it on Facebook once in a while -- promising I won't get offended no matter what I read, but I didn't get much feedback there either.

You may consider offering money in exchange for good feedback. A while ago, I agreed to pay a friend of mine $5 per individual piece of feedback that I judged to be sufficiently valuable. I learned a lot about myself as a result.

1EphemeralNight12y
There is no such person.

Then I think you might benefit from improving your social skills after all.

2wedrifid12y
You look at: * "I seem to have a tendency to feel extremely inadequate" * " I begin to... worry, and that feeling of helplessness starts showing up." The "social skills" referred to when considering mating potential are somewhat specific and include particular emphasis on displaying confidence, particularly sexual confidence. Google "dating inner game" and you'll have an overabundance of resources explaining what signals you need to send and giving tips on how to change yourself so that you are the kind of person who sends those signals more.

To take a prominent example, it's impossible to discuss the inferences that can be made from a woman's sexual history without getting into the problems described above. (Especially considering that statistically accurate criteria of this sort are, as a purely factual matter, highly asymmetrical across the sexes.) Or similarly, any sorts of inferences that can be made from looks and behavior, where it's usually impossible to even get to a rational discussion of whether they are statistically accurate, since any such discussion will at the same time hit the ... (read more)

I'm not going to get into a status competition with you over who is in a position to determine what.

OK, I will phrase it in different terms that make it explicit that I am making several claims here (one about what Bayesianism can determine, and one about what science can determine). It's much like I said above:

It's adequately suited for the accumulation of not-false beliefs, but it both could be better instrumentally designed for humans and is not the bedrock of thinking by which anything works. The thing that is essential to the method you describe

... (read more)
8pjeby12y
Any chance of turning this (and some of your other comments) into a top-level post? (perhaps something like, "When You Can (And Can't) Do Better Than Science"?)
2lessdazed12y
Yes. I think the first section should ignore the philosophy of science and cover the science of science, the sociology of it, and concede the sharpshooter's fallacy, assuming that whatever science does it is trying to do. The task of improving upon the method is then not too normative, since one can simply achieve the same results with fewer resources/better results with the same resources. Also, that way science can't blame perceived deficiencies on the methods of philosophy, as it could were one to evaluate science according to philosophy's methods and standards. This section would be the biggest added piece of value that isn't tying together things already on this site. A section should look for edges with only one labeled node in the scientific methods where science requires input from a mystery method, such as how scientists generate hypotheses or how scientific revolutions occur. These show the incompleteness of the scientific method as a means to acquire knowledge, even if it is perfect at what it does. Formalization and improvement of the mystery methods would contribute to the scientific method, even if nothing formal within the model changes. A section should discuss how science isn't a single method (according to just about everybody), but instead a family of similar methods varying especially among fields. This weakens any claim idealizing science in general, as at most one could claim that a particular field's method is ideal for human thought and discovery. Assuming each (or most) fields' methods are ideal (this is the least convenient possible world for the critic of the scientific method as practiced), the costs and benefits of using that method rather than a related scientific method can be speculated upon. I expect to find, as policy debates should not be one sided, that were a field to use other fields' methods it would have advantages and disadvantages; the simple case is choice of stricter p-value modulating wrong things believed at the expen

They excuse this moral failing by saying "Everybody else is doing it, hence it's okay for me to do it only more so".

I find that those with any significant degree of PUA competence are not particularly inclined to try to excuse themselves to others. Apart from being an unhealthy mindset to be stuck in it sends all the wrong signals. They would instead bock out any hecklers and go about their business. If people try to shame them specifically while they are flirting or socializing they may need to handle the situation actively but it is almost c... (read more)

It's more about punishing the enablers. If you reply to trolls, they reply to you, and the worthless conversation continues.

But you see, women don't find men who try to be nice to them attractive. They call it "clingy", "creepy" behavior. Human male-female interaction is actually a signalling game, where the man being nice simply sends a signal of weakness. Women are genetically programmed to only let alpha sperm in, and the alpha is not a character who goes around being nice to strangers.

Well, no. I've received quite a bit of help and favors from men who didn't seem creepy or clingy, and have found a few creepy who weren't being helpful. I don't think my experience is unusual.

6usedToPost12y
One of the big reasons that LW is unable to be rational about pickup is that we have a small group of vocal and highly non-average women here who take any comment which is supposed to be a useful observation about the mental behavior of the median young attractive woman to be about THEM IN PARTICULAR. You, NancyLebovitz, are not the kind of woman that PU is aimed at. You do not go to night clubs regularly. You do not read gossip magazines and follow celebrity lifestyles, you do not obsess about makeup . You post on weird rationality websites. You are not the median young, attractive woman. And that goes for Alicorn too. Even amongst the set of IQ + 1 sigma women you are almost certainly highly nontypical. Comments about female psychology are not directed at you, they are not about you, your personal experience of YOUR OWN reactions are not meant to be well described by pick-up theory. I do not mean this in a negative way. I mean you no offence; in fact you should take it as a compliment in the context of intelligence and rationality. I am merely making an epistemological point. The next time I make a comment about PU, I will carefully disclaim that PU is primarily designed to analyse the average psychology of just one particular kind of woman: namely relatively young, culturally-western, hetero- or bi- sexual and relatively attractive.
2thomblake12y
Especially important since major and well-respected proponents of PUA around here do not assume this premise, and in fact it is generally assumed that there are different areas of PUA that will help people of particular sex/gender/sexual orientation accomplish varying sorts of goals.
1ArisKatsaris12y
As I've pretty much argued before, people could escape the majority of needless wasteful friction if they were just willing to use words like "average" and/or "median" when that's indeed what they mean instead of "all". You could have said "average women" from the start. Am not talking about "careful" disclaimers here -- I'm just talking about the single word "average", which by itself would have vastly improved your comment. And yet you didn't choose to have that word. Why? Was one word so costly to you? Or was rudeness and stereotyping intentionally being signalled here in a "Alphas don't bother with politeness, that's submissive behaviour" sort-of-thing?

someone interested in pursuing farming would find more of use at a school with more focus on agriculture.

Which presupposes that high status institutions don't bother themselves with such vulgar low status occupations as agriculture.

What then is your explanation for discrimination against ROTC members.

The comparison was on an all things considered basis - the qualifications were otherwise equal, except that they also had interests in low status activities.

On my reading, this was not stated in the article.

Your reading is very strange:

The article s... (read more)

1Nornagest12y
UC Berkeley was originally an agriculture school and still maintains an ag department (now under the name of Agricultural and Resource Economics, but that's common to several schools better known for their ag programs). Stanford's got one, too. I'm on the wrong coast to know much about the Ivy League, unfortunately.

She also evidently posed the discussion as though it were a matter of some legitimate scientific consensus, relatively unobjectionable from a theoretical standpoint.

No -- that's what the blogger linked to in the grandparent did.

The fact that the Ivy League discriminates against farmers and the sons of farmers shows that manual work is low status, regardless of income, and working outdoors is especially low status, regardless of how successful the worker is economically.

I have not seen it demonstrated that that is a fact.

Once again, my favorite and much repeated citation, favorite because it reveals the same pathology as "Occupy Wall Street" and "Joe the puppeteer" reveals, but provides statistics rather than mere anecdote:'"Being an officer or win... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y70

Deny.

I am suggesting two things, somewhat seperate:

First, that "we might draw people less-than-rational, and that's undesireable" seems to suggest, in a Sapir-Whorf kinda way, that the utterers consider themselves to be rational, rather than rationality being a thing which is valuable to increase in oneself, and that this suggests to me a degree of reflective incoherence on the part of those whose mental model can be described that way, which is at conflict with the goal of being less wrong.

Second, that members of this community should probably... (read more)

9Nornagest12y
"Less than rational" isn't the phrase I'd use; as you say, rationality really shouldn't be understood as a discrete state but as an asymptotic goal, and even then it's probably preferable to speak in terms of individual biases or cognitive skills as appropriate. But J_Taylor's second point doesn't lose much of its force if you cast it in terms of individuals seeking company in their specific contrarian beliefs, for whom this whole "rationality" business might be little more than a group-identifying label or a justifying habit of thought. Granted, it might eventually be possible to bring such a demographic around to actual truth-seeking, but it'll take more work than debiasing someone who's already posting in good faith -- and this site isn't so large or so stable that it can afford to spend a lot of time dragging people out of self-constructed ideological labyrinths in which they're quite comfortable. It's a particularly nasty problem, though: ideology looks like common sense from the inside, and so it's hard to tell to what extent the site culture's already corrupted by arational ideas that've just happened to achieve local hegemony. I'd like to say that a careful and fearless examination of any beliefs that look like common sense to us should turn up the major problems, but frankly I don't think we're there yet -- and an outside view, unfortunately, isn't necessarily going to be helpful. There's plenty of motivated cognition out there, too.
3J_Taylor12y
Nornagest defended the point better than I probably could. Nonetheless, I would like to clarify that "less-than-rational" was myself being slightly too euphemistic. I meant to say that some contrarians are contrarians due to highly problematic reasons. Some of them should not even be considered contrarians, but merely individuals who retain the beliefs of tribes which are not respected within mainstream intellectual culture. These individuals, due to opportunity costs if nothing else, should probably not be considered potential rationalists at this time.
1[anonymous]12y
nods My assertion that some nontrivial number of such people are already visible contributors here still remains.

How would you defend it?

Most effectively by insulting the masculinity of any male who disagrees with you. I've actually seen this done. It was almost comical in the degree it went to.

Not relevant to email, or even an access-controlled site.

2pedanterrific12y
Oh. Oops. (I don't know much about that sort of thing, obviously.)

I can't think of any other categories of reviled ideas.

Reactionary elitism, for one (almost by definition not a redneck attitude).

As to what might be exceptional about modern society, it contains huge numbers of people who are not bored by ideas and who have some basic equipment, such as literacy, for analyzing them.

This seems crazily optimistic — literacy and intellectualism, however widespread, don't do much to protect people from holding ideological taboos.

I went to a liberal university for undergrad and I got the sense that most of my classmates and professors held that position

Are you including anti-democracy in "that position"? I wouldn't be surprised to see people in the US mainstream endorsing what amounts to technocracy; I would be very surprised to see many people endorsing Chinese levels of political freedom. I'm fairly sure that this is both the main thing that Emile meant when he was thinking of what you can't say, and the first property of "the Chinese government system" that would come to mind for most Americans and came to mind for the other commenters here.

1Vaniver12y
Consider someone who wants judicial fiat to impose some policy they approve of- like, say, gay marriage. Is that anti-democracy? That's the extent to which I'm including anti-democracy in that position. The desire for a progressive regulatory state is conditioned on the idea that some people know what should be done better than others, which is an inherently anti-democratic notion; democratic opposition to things in the people's best interest is an obstacle to be overcome not an objection to be heard out. That said, I think most of the people I know would at least complain if they had to move to a Singapore-style "democracy" (well-run but lacking rights like free speech). People have inconsistent political preferences all the time. A number of people I know take overpopulation and environmental threats very seriously. Many of them approve of the results of China's multiple-child tax, though many of them complain about the implementation and the limitation on freedom. I don't remember any of them acknowledging that the only way to get Chinese levels of results was with Chinese levels of political freedom, but I'm sure at least one made that connection. Ah. The first thing that comes to mind for me, when comparing the Chinese government and the American government, is that the Chinese government is comprised of engineers and the American government is comprised of lawyers, and I suspect that is true for most people who would hold some version of that opinion.

Old Man Aumann says: Great minds think alike... or else.

Redneck has had connotations beyond "someone who works outside", "someone who does farm work", or even "someone who is white and does farm work" for some time.

I agree with most of this, except that I would also say that human sacrifice is fine as long as everyone involved consents

I notice that this is something that I have instrumental reasons to support. Anybody who considers cryonics to be a rite of 'nerd religion' should thereby consider the early, voluntary preservation of someone with Alzheimers a ritual human sacrifice meant to purify them for the afterlife.

Legalize human sacrifice!

8TheOtherDave12y
Fair point. A related observation is that, since cryonics can (as you note) be framed as a 'nerd religion' form of human sacrifice, social norms opposing human sacrifice can be framed as opposing cryonics as well. It follows that if you support cryonics, you might do well to work against those norms, all else being equal. I suppose something similar is true of Christian Scientists other sects that reject medical care, whose practices can similarly be framed as a form of human sacrifice. Also people who perform or receive abortions, I guess. We could all band together to form the Coalition to Support Things that Can be Thought of as Resembling Human Sacrifice (Including Of Course Human Sacrifice Itself). Well, OK, maybe we should have a catchier name. Also, there should be a convenient term to describe the social process whereby entirely unrelated groups come to share a common cause created entirely by the fact that they are classified similarly by a powerful third party.
4wedrifid12y
Good idea!
2TheOtherDave12y
I submit "social reification" in the mild hope that someone will improve on it.
3khafra12y
I thought the word was "politics."
2wedrifid12y
A lot of things are 'politics'. More specific names are also handy.
2Strange712y
"Bootleggers and baptists" is a related concept.
3CronoDAS12y
Hell, just legalize suicide. :P
2Nornagest12y
Hmm. I'm not sure I'd consider that a sacrifice as such, even if I strain myself to view it through a religious frame. Ritual sacrifice seems to cluster around giving up something physical and valuable in order to sanctify some external object or concept; essentially costly signaling of devotion. There's no external sanctification going on here, and I'm not sure how valuable I'd consider continued life under those circumstances; early cryopreservation seems more like sokushinbutsu or something similar. "Mortification of the flesh" is probably the closest Christian analogy, although it's not a perfect one.

I can see why. I also note he has ready-made fully-general counterarguments for any detractors... ie "any woman that objects to what I say is just old and jealous"

As a substantial portion of the population doesn't play the game of thought experiments very well, it would be worthwhile to ask a second, unrelated thought-experiment question. Anyone who says something like "But a fat man wouldn't weigh enough to stop a trolley!" or "You can't keep a violinist alive by connecting them to a person!" and also doesn't ask something like "Can I have investors bet on whether or not I will receive the $1M?" is just stupid.

3A1987dM12y
Well, it just didn't occur to me that I could make such a bet. (Or even, I might sell the lottery ticket with an auction: someone richer than me (who would assign roughly the same utility as me to $1M but much less utility than me to smaller amounts such as $500) might buy it for a lot more money.)
5lessdazed12y
If it wouldn't have seemed to you like a decisive refutation that a fat man might not be able stop a trolley, then you're not stupid, and didn't immediately think of auctioning off the ticket because you understand how these things are supposed to work.
3A1987dM12y
Well, I sometimes do think about non-LPCW answers to hypothetical dilemmas (though I don't say them aloud), but in this case I didn't even think of it. (I feel like my inclination to come up with non-LPCW answers is a function of the scenario's plausibility, but not a monotonic one.)

Hitting me.
Hitting others.
Demonstrating poor impulse control in general.
Physically intimidating me (e.g., looming up in my personal space).

In general, someone using their words increases my estimate that they will continue using their words.

Based on the comments you've left so far in response to what I've been writing, I estimate a low probability that you are genuinely intrigued by what I might think about certain questions, and a much higher probability that you are baiting.

However, just in case the less probable hypothesis is true, I will for once respond to you. Namely, if you want me to talk about things that I'm reluctant to discuss because I'm not sure if it's worth the controversy it will cause, then I'd first like to see that you're making some effort to understand the arguments tha... (read more)

1Multiheaded12y
...... Sorry, but I'm just stunned by such an interpretation. Okay, I'll try to assess some of your more outstanding and upvoted comments as fairly as I can and respond to the best of my ability, if that's what it takes to initiate a dialogue. I was, however, quite unaware that my remarks could've been taken to express any disrespect of your intelligence and epistemic virtue, or disregard for your viewpoints. Indeed, if you take a look at the enormous thread that was LW's response to my query in this fascinating direction, you'll see that I've been striving to consider opinions carefully, avoid knee-jerk reactions and associate with "far out" viewpoints first before judging them (that last one is especially challenging for me - if anyone's interested, I'll try to outline why). I honestly don't understand why my desire to learn new perspectives, to consider their implications - and, yes, argue about them, but without aiming for their suppression or vilification of their holders - has now been met with such derision. If you feel that the above is just so much self-congratulation and platitude, go ahead and tell me so, but, now at least, I really believe that I tried my best and sparked off valuable, constructive discussion with that post.

"Long-term monogamy should not be done on the pretense that attraction and arousal for one's partner won't fade. It will."

This is precisely the point of monogamy. Polyamory/sleeping around is a young man's game. Long-term monogamy is meant to maintain strong social units throughout life, long after the thrill is gone.

Way too many coments to reed, but..

"We are even more likely to marry someone with a similar-sounding name.15"

Perhaps not. I googled it and found this: http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/workshops/marketing/archive/sp10/Spurious20100424.pdf

I find this hard to believe. As of the last survey only 33% are "single and looking". If we combine that with the 24.2% that were "in a relationship", assume they were all polyamorous, and that all of both groups were men, we still do not approach the lower bound of your estimate. It fails a basic sanity check.

You excluded 'married' from the check, which is the only thing that allows your "sanity failure" assertion to stand. This is either an error or disingenuous. 'Married' applies for the same reason 'in a relationship' a... (read more)

2thomblake12y
Agreed. I was not considering "attracting" and "keeping" as separate states; rather, I read it as "attracting or (attracting and keeping)" which clearly was not warranted. So if we assume everyone not "single but not looking" was male and interested in the sorts of things mentioned above, that's 76%, which while still a stretch falls well within the range above.

That's not very helpful to me.

Ethics aren't about putative human universals. I'm honestly not sure how to most effectively explain that since I can't see a good reason why putative human universals came up at all!

I had guessed Konkvistador was referring to some sort of putative human universals.

Cooperative tribal norms seems more plausible. Somebody thinking their ethics are human universals requires that they, well, are totally confused about what is universal about humans.

Right now, the poll is at 14 to 1

I distinctly remember it being something to 2 earlier. In any case, other options might be even worse. A new norm of approving of people posting in the middle of threads "This is a happy death spiral but it would be impolite to say why" might be a net good.

Meta comment

There are more than a thousand comments on this thread now (is that an LW record?). This makes it very difficult for newcomers to navigate the threads and arguments. As such it might be worth summarising some of the discussions and splitting them into separate discussion threads.

As such it might be worth summarising some of the discussions and splitting them into separate discussion threads.

Why did you not mention PUA? This sucks. No, PUA sucks. This post is almost ok because it is mostly gender neutral. No, it does suck because it is censored. Why is the word 'rational used?' Boo! Ethics! Morals! You're a bunch of one-dimensional stereotypes! Women like jerks - or not. Nice guys are grossly obese and smelly girls - or not. Utilitarianism! I deny Bayes theorem! No, Bayes is awesome, even better than science. You are a rapist. No I'm not. You forgot polygynous relationships under the polyamoury category. Ooh, ooh meta, let's discuss whether this was good or bad, with polls!

On second thoughts let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

[-][anonymous]12y170

I figure this comment was mostly intended as a joke but it is honestly a useful summary (and a useful overview of some LW memes, especially ones relating to relationships).

9wedrifid12y
My favorite humor tends to be flippantly sincere. :)
9Jack12y
This just saved me so much time.
8lessdazed12y
Do the dangling variable dance! It goes something like this: I'm a conservative! Dangle dangle dangle dangle! Abortion is murder! Dangle dangle dangle dangle! I'm a libertarian! Dangle dangle dangle dangle! Taxation is slavery! Dangle dangle dangle dangle! I'm a liberal! Dangle dangle dangle dangle! Acting confident and suppressing nervousness is rape! Dangle dangle dangle dangle!
5lessdazed12y
Followed by: this thread is lame, everything's lame. ("Followed by followed by" coming soon?) In any case, sing it with me: I respect women when I'm on a date/I take them to the park/or maybe a museum... (Upvoted)
4FiftyTwo12y
If nothing else, I am now convinced there's nothing to be gained from trawling through the thread.

I find it hard to believe that we want to argue that, "Dark arts are bad, except when they can get you laid."

Dark arts AREN"T bad in general! Nor is avadakadavraing anyone that you would have shot with a gun anyway.

Well, without the threatened torture, house arrest and other problems. On the other hand, she was treated the way she was without trying publish her views and or trying to spread them to the general public. Overall, a Galileo comparison doesn't work very well.

I find it hard to believe that we want to argue that, "Dark arts are bad, except when they can get you laid."

Ah. I prefer not to argue "dark arts are bad," rather "dark arts do not illuminate." Tautologies have the virtue of being true.

(Put flippantly, sex is sometimes easier with the lights off.)

1Prismattic12y
I was using "dark arts" here in the more narrow sense of "techniques designed to subvert the rationality of others by exploiting cognitive biases." I'm not speaking of being an effective flirt, or wearing flattering makeup and clothing. The sort of things I had in mind are, to take a mild example, bringing a slightly less attractive "wingman" to make oneself look more attractive than one would alone, or to take a serious example, whisking a woman from bar to bar to create the illusion of longer-term acquaintance. I see this as wrong for essentially the same reason that spiking someone's drink is wrong if they wouldn't sleep with you sober. To oversimplify somewhat, I tend to see society as divided into three groups: those who don't generally aspire to rationality (the majority of the population), those who want to share the bounty of rationality to help others overcome their biases (Lesswrong), and those who would instead use their knowledge of rationality to exploit people in the first group. I acknowledge that I am more confused by the current negative karma of my grandparent than the karma of any other comment I have ever made on this site.
2PhilosophyTutor12y
My observation is that most of the posts I have made that criticised PUA or PUA-associated beliefs have been voted down very quickly, but then they have bounced back up over the next day or so such that the overall karma delta is highly positive. One hypothesis that explains it is that there are a certain number of people reviewing this thread at short intervals who are downvoting posts critical of PUA, but that they are not the plurality of posters reviewing this thread. ETA: Update on this. Posts critical of PUA ideology that are concealed from the main thread either by being voted to -3 or below, or by being a descendant of such, get voted into the ground, and as far as I can see this effect is largely insensitive to the intellectual value or lack thereof of the post. I hypothesise that the general LW readership doesn't bother drilling down to see what's going on in those subthreads and hence their opinions are not reflected in the vote count, while PUA-enthusiasts who vote along ideological lines do bother to drill down. Posts critical of PUA that are well-written, logical, pertinent and visible to the general readership are voted up, overall.
7lessdazed12y
One explanation is that the first to read your messages are those you responded to, who are those most likely to note any poorness of fit between what they said and what they are alleged or implied to have said or believed.

even with consent you can still have statutory rape, though it's debatable whether that's a "natural" subcategory of rape

Which seems ridiculous to me. And that isn't an objection with respect to people should being punished for what is called statuary rape. It is an objection to the crime against language!

4pedanterrific12y
Won't somebody think of the statues?!
3Nornagest12y
I'd say it falls naturally out of the construction of consent, actually. Looks pretty different from a consequential perspective, but from a deontological one the only relevant problems show up around the consent-capable/consent-incapable border, or relate to what to do when both partners are considered incapable -- none of which is much of a surprise if you're using a consent criterion. I'm pretty sure there's similar strangeness in contract law. There's some more or less analogous stuff going on in the earlier property-crime construction, too.
[-][anonymous]12y60

You would achieve the same effect if A were attracted to people trapped inside giant transparent hamster balls. Now we just need a single word for this kind of attraction.

2DSimon12y
Ahaptophilia? (Attraction to people whom you cannot touch)
2ArisKatsaris12y
Pushing Daisies had both its protagonists suffer from this.

I really liked this post because 1: I like picking up women for the obvious reasons, and 2: I love people who are into LW style rationality and I think the best way for it to spread is to demonstrate its applicability to a diverse range of standard human endeavors.

But I have to say that the method of marketing to a specialized group can be taken way too far. And it isn't too hard to do this. I for instance, have long unkempt dreads down to my ass. I get compliments on this at least three times a day (no exaggeration). But all in all, I think I would likel... (read more)

That wasn't how I saw the context here, because of the statement "I do not agree". Also, no consequences were enumerated. "I agree with the facts as stated, but think phrasing them this way has bad consequences," is a fine way to argue against a presentation of ideas.

I am very suspicious of obscuring truth in the name of positive consequences, of applying only or mostly first-order idea utilitarianism.

What should I have said instead? "Incentive-followingly"? Maybe the fashion pendulum has swung too far toward not using the word.

6lessdazed12y
"Calmly", "by punishing the punishment", "to the substance of the matter regardless of punishment". People punishing norm violations aren't the villains of their own narratives, they think they're responding rationally.
8steven046112y
My purpose in using the word was not to contrast good us to bad them, but rather to emphasize that the action Prismattic disagrees with (that of withholding one's opinion) is a move forced by an incentive that needn't itself have been set (and shouldn't have been set if Prismattic is right that opinion withholding is bad), and so it's more reasonable for Prismattic to complain to the incentive setters than to the incentive followers. Does that make sense? The "people aren't villains of their own narratives" line always struck me as a little glib. Villains believe they're not villains, but does that mean they falsely believe they're some particular thing that truly is not a villain, or does it merely mean they correctly believe they're some particular thing that they falsely believe is not a villain (fail to label as villainous)? In my intuition these are two different things and the saying uses the plausibility of the disjunction of the two things to suggest only the first thing. Clearly villains usually gain some sort of satisfaction from their role in the world, perhaps even moral satisfaction, but that's not the same thing as there having been a good-faith effort to be a hero. I don't know, I may just be confused here. Anyway, what matters is who's a villain in God's narrative (in the atheist sense of God). :)
3lessdazed12y
I disagree with this, at least it's not at all obvious. It means that at least on LW, they would also describe their behavior as rational (in certain contexts where reason is seen as an enemy, not everyone would be claiming the title "rational"). Clever.
3wedrifid12y
Which does not necessarily mean we should change the way we treat them. They can tell themselves whatever story they like. And by punishing them appropriately they will either change their behavior or, perhaps most importantly, those witnessing the punishment will avoid the behavior that visibly invokes community disapproval.

The key line is "extensive" (and also, of course, "always.") Imagine that out of a large population of Star-Bellied Sneeches and Sneeches With No Stars Upon Thars, a few marry and have Half-Starred Sneech children. Thereafter (for whatever reason) Half-Starred Sneeches tend to mate with each other, and, in part due to their greater resistance to the Great Whoville Plague, in due time grow to greater numbers than either the Star-Bellied or Blank-Belied populations. But this doesn't produce a (biologically, rather than culturally, mediate... (read more)

I'm trying to abstain from posting, but, in brief, I suspect it's the same thing that prompted e.g. my (over)reaction to reading Three Worlds Collide, the infanticide thread by Bakkot and some other stuff here. When encountering strong arguments against some element of ordinary, mainstream, liberal commonsense ethics (alongside with guilt for hardly living up to those in the first place), I tend to feel morally imperiled, disgusted by aspects of my own character, unsure of my worth as a person and easy to turn to "evil". I know how wild and unhea... (read more)

3Blueberry12y
Hmm. I think I understand. I'm the opposite in some ways: I get a wild thrill of excitement and happiness at "taboo" thoughts or ideas, and I'm biased towards them. I remember first discovering Holocaust revisionists and being amazingly awed at the daring and conviction and wrongness of what they were saying. I don't know what this says about my personality. That said, I get somewhat annoyed at overly cynical or oversimplified explanations of complex phenomena, such as when people say that the educational system or the legal system is all about status signaling, or the PUA theory that everything is a test and it's all about dominance and social value. What "evil" bothers you the most? And what was your reaction to TWC? You can probably guess what mine was.

Naaaah, let's just have Eliezer try to get Vlad's ideas out of the box. :-)

ETA: People, if you downvote me and I can't tell why I may give you more of the same just to annoy you.

Please don't say this, that will just encourage people to downvote you because they'll feel like you're taunting them.

If you get downvoted and don't know why, then the standard thing to do is to respond to your own comment asking "Why was my comment downvoted? I'm genuinely curious."

[-][anonymous]12y50

Should and is assessed as they should be:

  • I have a good map, it shows the best way to get from A to B and ... also C. I shouldn't go to C, it is a nasty place.

Should and is assessed as they unfortunately often are:

"letting should cloud their assessment of is"

  • I don't want to go to C so I shouldn't draw out that part around C on my map. I hope I still find a good way to B and don't get lost.

and its reverse.

  • I have a good map, it shows the best way to get from A to B and ... also C. Wow C's really nearby, lets go there!
[-][anonymous]12y50

What I think we’re in danger of forgetting is that, anywhere but Less Wrong, “That’s offensive!” is actually a really persuasive argument. People who blithely ignore even the strongest of evidence will often shut up and look stupid if you successfully play the offense card. PC arguments may be so commonly heard, not because they are the “best” (most valid) arguments that could be made in support of a given assertion, but because they totally work.

If someone says, with no factual basis at all, that members of Group X murder children, piles and piles of evi... (read more)

2lessdazed12y
"You're wrong" implies "you're a liar," or a more direct response could be "that's a lie." If the goal is to make someone look stupid, this can work better. Admittedly that's not always a major goal, cases won't overlap, etc. But I think we do see people make fact-citing arguments that are delivered in the tone of "that's offensive", so the methods aren't mutually exclusive. For example, any argument beginning "There is no scientific evidence that..." in an appropriately shrill tone sends the message that offense is taken and sidesteps the logical evidence to highlight the strongest available evidence, the absence of scientific evidence. Even if the offense argument is explicit, factual arguments could at least be added to it.
[-][anonymous]12y50

Sure, but people do unhealthy / bad things all the time, and are biased in favor of many of them. I'm not supposing that someone might "use our power for evil" or something like that. Rather, I think we should include our best information.

Our disagreement seems to boil down to:

A ... net cost of silly biased human brains letting should cloud their assessment of is.
B ... net cost of silly biased human brains letting is cloud their assessment of should.

Statement: Among Lesswrong readers: P(A>B) > P(B>A)

I say TRUE. You say FALSE.

Do you (and the readers) agree with this interpretation of the debate?

"Torture" is a label you attached to things, and then when you ask if something is torture you're making a disguised query but you can't get out more than what you put in. Strong arguments against anything anyone affixes the label "torture" to don't exist.

If one has a way of carving up reality such that yields (set of activities 1), and another that yields a strongly overlapping (set of activities 2), one doesn't make the sets synonymous by acting as if there is only one mental bin as if there was only one set. An argument against each... (read more)

Unfortunately, this will only work in a population with a weak segregation distorter. Remember, mutations that do a specific thing are rare, and detecting the presence of a specific allele that doesn't have large-scale phenotypic effects is tough. By the time the segregation distorting allele is a large fraction of the population it is almost too late for the population.

I didn't know! (Though my guess would have been accurate.) I went wading through old comments:

  • Konkvistador: he
  • cousin_it: he
  • lessdazed: No pronoun stated, but you're Jewish!
  • RomanDavis: No pronoun stated, but the first name makes "he" likely.

There's a very good reason why we do double-blind, placebo-controlled trials rather than just recruiting a bunch of people who browse LW to do experiments with

Yes, and people who actually understand the tradeoffs in using formal scientific reasoning and its deviations from the laws of reasoning are the only people in position to intelligently determine that. Those who say "always use the scientific method for important things" or, though I don't know that there ever has been or ever will be such a person, "always recruit a bunch of people... (read more)

2Strange712y
Grammar nitpick: should be "is bullshit," referring to the singular "notion."

Because this is a terrible debate, and we should all feel bad for having it. (I say this, like Yvain did originally, as a moth who knows it is drawn to the flame.)

Also, you're a bad person for saying a woman who doesn't shave her legs is gross.

That meaning is very different to saying "grossly obese" in the same sentence as never showering or shaving her legs. At worst Yvain could be bad for saying that people who are very, very, overweight is gross - and even then it wouldn't be somewhat of a distortion.

Writing simply 'obese' would be an underspecification. For example the only time I have ever qualified as officially 'obese' was when I was body building aggressively - which is an entirely different thing.

the idea that IQ is general intelligence and the gap is genetic

It's often a good idea to point directly to statements people have made. This is particularly true when the claim is about "LessWrong itself". If an idea is common, one can surely find multiple people espousing or assuming it, and if the idea is part of the LW consensus, that would be reflected in comments to the cited sources.

2wedrifid12y
Ooh, here we go, I found one. EDIT: If the meaning isn't clear I was just reassuring lessdazed that lesswrong does, in fact, have examples of people accepting that prior to any observations of any race we should expect there to be some degree of genetically based IQ difference between races or genetically related populations. Since it was links to examples that were requested not examples themselves I fulfilled the technicality with a wry self-reference. This was not intended to offend anyone or suggest anything about anything anyone had said beyond answering lessdazed's request.
3JoshuaZ12y
I'm not sure that phrased that way that Jandila necessarily will disagree with you that much. I'm curious which of the following statements you agree with and which Jandila agrees with: 1. It is likely that there are genes in the human gene pool which effectively code for tendencies in IQ and are not fixed throughout all humans, and where the non-fixed versions aren't things that lead to what is normally classed as mental retardation or something similar. 2. It is likely that some of those genes either through causal historical issues, or random drift and founder effects are distributed through different human populations in different ways, where populations in question include various groups often classified as "ethnic" or "racial" groups. 1. There are groups in society which have been historically mistreated and may still be mistreated. This can lead to environmental impacts on IQ. Similarly, different cultures have different norms about learning, test-taking and child-raising that can with a decent probability impact IQ. I suspect that both of you will agree on all three of those points. I suspect more disagreement is really occurring on how 2 and 3 interact implicitly. In particular, Jandila believes that the environmental issues likely swamp any genetic effect. Moreover, there's an apparent disagreement in whether IQ is an effective proxy for the general notion of "intelligence". I'm also going to use this to interject from minor factual issue that may be relevant: In multiple cultures where there is a minority that has been historically persecuted, the minority does not do as well on many forms of tests. One example that will likely be not mindkilling for most English speakers are the Ainu in Japan. Why this pattern exists is a distinct issue but this data point does seem to be relevant.
3wedrifid12y
I disagree on the word 'the'. It's a surprisingly big deal - for me at least. It may be a disagreement that is significantly influenced by mere careless presentation of ideas but then I think details of communication are what Jandila's comment was most criticized for by others too. I haven't looked closely with what Jandila has said beyond that which is quoted by lessdazed. I'm not especially interested in Stephanie Grace. I did follow the 'Lynching' link and learned all sorts of things about various forms of vigilante social sanction. Then some interesting facts about bitumen and pine tar (via the association with feathers).
1JoshuaZ12y
Confused. Your link seems to go to this post itself.
7wedrifid12y
In fact it goes specifically to the comment itself. And the comment itself contains an example of that which is required in such a link. Fancy that. ;)
5lessdazed12y
Reasonable expressions of genuine confusion should not be downvoted.

Actually, randomized controlled studies show that breastfeeding has no effect on IQ. More generally, decades of RCT have failed to demonstrate a causal basis of any of breastfeeding's correlates.

1wedrifid12y
Really? Not even immune system response? This 'colostrum' stuff is a scam?

How determined an attacker are we planning for, here? The original goal was to just meliorate the damage that a theoretical rogue member could cause (as it seems hopeless to try to prevent that). Are you really anticipating "the authorities" getting involved?

4Bugmaster12y
Well, on the one hand, Vladimir_M believes that his beliefs are so heretical that they can cause society -- any society, if I understand him correctly -- to turn against him in a really intense way. On the other hand, our authorities have been getting quite jumpy lately; for example, merely having an Arabic-sounding last name is already enough for the FBI to attach a tracking device to your car. When you put the two factors together, it seems reasonable to expect said authorities to take an interest in the membership of the Contrarian Conspiracy.

Well, on the one hand, Vladimir_M believes that his beliefs are so heretical that they can cause society -- any society, if I understand him correctly -- to turn against him in a really intense way.

Where on Earth did you read anything like that anywhere in my comments? Please provide a citation. (Which you should be able to do if you assert it as a known fact that person X believes Y.)

This, by the way, is another way in which expressing opinions about controversial and charged topics can be more dangerous than one might assume. Already in the second- or third-hand retelling, your opinion is not at all unlikely to be distorted and amplified into a caricatured soundbite that sounds far more crude and awful than anything you ever meant to say or actually said. If such things happen even on the "meta" level, what can one expect to happen when concrete topics are broached?

2Bugmaster12y
Ok, I tried doing just that right now, but I couldn't make heads or tails of the thread at all at any capacity. So, firstly, I have to withdraw my comment for lack of evidence; my apologies. But secondly, can you offer some advice for navigating gigantic threads on Less Wrong ? For example, is there a way to search just a single thread for comments with certain keywords, or to flatten the thread, or something ?
4wedrifid12y
Such a belief does not exist! Vladimir_M is a liar. A dirty, dirty liar! (Prove me wrong? :P)

There's no such thing as a hate-speech basilisk! Don't be sill-

whisperwhisper

RAARGH DIE YOU FOUL HERETIC

2wedrifid12y
Now I'm wondering if there there are any mythical creatures who are known to cause anyone who sets eyes upon them to attack them. It doesn't seem like a survival trait exactly, unless it is intended to force the assailant into a particularly dangerous form of confrontation.
8Emile12y
There's the Troll, obviously.
5wedrifid12y
If only those were mythological!

Is this a joke? I don't know what exactly. That's the point.

1Vladimir_M12y
OK, then to phrase it in purely grammatical terms, what exactly is the antecedent of the pronoun "it" in your question above?
3pedanterrific12y

You write as if there is some particular horrible truth that I'd like to be able to shout from the rooftops but I'm afraid to do so. There's nothing like that. (Not about this topic, anyway.)

What does exist, however, is that real, no-nonsense advice about this topic breaks the social norms of polite discourse and offends various categories of people. ("Offends" in the sense that it lowers their status in a way that, according to the present mainstream social norms, constitutes a legitimate grievance.) This leads straight to at least three possible failure modes: (1) the discourse breaks down and turns into a quarrel over the alleged offenses, (2) the discourse turns into a pseudo-rational discussion that incorporates heavy biases that are necessary to steer it away from the unacceptable territory, or (3) the discourse accurately converges onto the correct but offensive ideas, but makes the forum look to the outsiders like a low-status breeding ground for offensive and evil ideas.

Concrete examples are easy to think of even without getting into the traditionally controversial PUA stuff. For example, one sort of advice I wish my younger self had followed is about what sorts... (read more)

3pedanterrific12y
Well, it's fair to say I wrote that way, as that was indeed the impression I was operating under. Looking back on your actual posts, I'm not quite sure precisely where I got that idea, though apparently I was not alone in that interpretation (I see you've already responded to one of those comments as well). In that case, I'm somewhat more sympathetic to your point of view. If you think it probably isn't worth the predictable breakdown in discussion to spread around some particular piece of offensive-but-helpful-and-true advice, I'm not going to second-guess you. But to be fair, I think the points I made in this particular branch of the conversation do apply more generally to whatever other Soylent Green-style horrible truths you (or anyone else) may or may not have, not just this one specific topic.
5Vladimir_M12y
The trouble is, I really don't see how any course of action would have much hope of avoiding at least one of the three listed failure modes. On the one hand, I don't want to be the one responsible for failure (1) or (3), but on the other, I have grown fond enough of this forum that I'd hate to see it degenerate into just another place where failures of type (2) go on unnoticed. Hence my attempt to draw attention to the problem by discussing it at the meta level.

My personal belief is that female utility is maximized by a man who is alpha

Note that "utility" is not the same thing as "sexual pleasure".

Although assisting suicide seems to be a felony in most states in the US according to wikipedia.

Of course for the majority of people wikipedia page itself is all the assistance they would require.

My discovery of the day: Suicide by locking yourself in the garage with the car on just aint what it used to be. Apparently it was once painless and only minimally unpleasant due to the large amount of carbon monoxide produced. These days, however, we have more efficient engines and catalytic converters. This means you need an awful lot of exhaust fumes to get ... (read more)

2TheOtherDave12y
(nods) My dad once attempted and failed to kill himself by the former method and reported something similar.

I'm not interested in debating this particular issue, but clearly a reasonable argument could be made based on the disparities in physical strength.

What makes the broader context interesting, however, is that issues like these demonstrate that principled egalitarianism is not a viable Schelling point for basing social norms. This however clearly leads to some very problematic questions.

Good question.

I tried looking up statistics, but it seems like my Google-Fu has failed. I found numbers for federal court, but most of what it says is that the vast majority of federal indictments are resolved with guilty pleas, and there don't seem to be very many rape trials in federal court.

Trying to break down the numbers further:

According to the numbers given, In 2005 there were 3065 jury convictions and 430 jury acquittals in federal court, making a total of 3,495 federal jury trials and a conviction rate of 88%. Under the "sexual abuse" c... (read more)

This is not a meaningful direction for debate. Let me clear things up for both of you.

He meant: "I have no objection to acts just because the label 'bestiality' can be applied."

You took him to mean: "I have no objection to any acts to which the label 'bestiality' can be applied."

2DoubleReed12y
Thank you.

So far we really don't have any good solutions to the issue of consent, and that is why I would argue that we have a flat ban on it.

By "that we have" do you mean "that we do have" or "that we should have?" I think it would difficult to claim that existing bans on bestiality are really based on the idea of consent, which they predate. (Note that e.g. "rape" (of humans) refers to something conceptually quite different than it did back in the bad old days.)

I got the sense that he was actually using his personal valuation, and passing it off as a marketplace-valuation. His references to studies felt like he was trying to find facts to fit his own valuations. However - I'll freely admit that I have not read his stuff widely. This is one of those websites where I decided it would not be a good idea for me to keep going as it simply continued to fuel my anger. It was more rational simply to stop reading.

Was there ever a followup post for this?

Doesn't seem to be. There are other posts on relationships by the authors, but nothing in the sequence this occupies (indeed, this is the sequence's last existing post), and nothing similarly named that I can find.

A better way to go about it would be slipping Vlad some drug that will overwhelm his barriers and make him blabber out the horrible truth. Look at his comment history and you'll see that no-one ever got anything serious out of him after him dropping such hints with just talk.;)

You had me convinced that Vladimir really was all talk and bluff until other links in recent comments lead me to some rather detailed explanations by Vladimir of his position.

I have an even stronger dislike than normal for cheap rhetoric when I realize that I have been taken in by... (read more)

1Multiheaded12y
...maybe. Okay. You know what, I'm currently feeling impostor syndrome - or just plain old inadequacy, the point is the same - just by talking here. Maybe it's all out of my league, and maybe I'm operating under a massive self-deception. I'll take a couple days off LW at least and won't think about the whole matter at all. Maybe I'll have to take a longer break.
4wedrifid12y
Without trying to condescend too much - Something to keep in mind when managing your own sense of adequacy and inclusion is that personal challenges are much more controversial (and likely to be challenged and counterattacked) than more straightforward positions. While direct challenges are sometimes appropriate it is almost always always more practical to avoid them unless you are already feeling entirely secure in your position and not especially vulnerable to potential disagreement. The above applies both here and elsewhere and even when you are being entirely reasonable.

In a recent case a man was jailed for obtaining sex by deceiving a woman about his religion.

Almost certainly not.

Back in July, it was reported that the two met in a Jerusalem street in 2008, had consensual sex within 10 minutes of meeting each other...

It was also reported at the time that Kashur was charged with rape and indecent assault, and the conviction of rape by deception was a result of a plea bargain.

New details in the case emerged when the woman's testimony, which had been kept secret, was declassified last week.

It shows an emotionally distur

... (read more)

But the goal was to have separate threads for non-normative and normative claims,

My understanding was that the goal was to have a useful discussion, minus the mindkilling. AFAICT your proposal of the means by which to accomplish this, is to throw out the usefulness along with the mindkilling.

Ethics is a whole different thing than putative human universals. Very few things that I would assert as ethics would I claim to be human universals. "Normative human essentials" might fit in that context. (By way of illustration, we all likely consider 'Rape Bad' as an essential ethical value but I certainly wouldn't say that's a universal human thing. Just that the ethics of those who don't think Rape Is Bad suck!)

3[anonymous]12y
Different ethical systems are possible to implement even on "normal" human hardware (which is far from the set of all humans!). We have ample evidence in favour of this hypothesis. I think Westerners in particular seem especially apt to forget to think of this when convenient.
1wedrifid12y
I think I agree with what you are saying but I can't be sure. Could you clarify it for me a tad (seems like a word is missing or something.) Westerners certainly seem to forget this type of thing. Do others really not so much?
5[anonymous]12y
Human can and do value different things. Sometimes even when they start out valuing the same things, different experiences/cricumstances lead them to systematize this into different reasonably similarly consistent ethical systems. Modern Westerners often identify their values as being the product of reason, which must be universal. While this isn't exactly rare, it is I think less pronounced in most human cultures throughout history. I think a more common explanation to "they just haven't sat down and thought about stuff and seen we are right yet" is "they are wicked" (have different values). Which obviously has its own failure modes, just not this particular one.
3Emile12y
It would be interesting to trace the relationship between the idea of universal moral value, and the idea of universal religion. Moldbug argues that the latter pretty much spawned the former (that's probably a rough approximation), though I don't trust his scholarship on the history of ideas that much. I don't know to what extent the ancient Greeks and Romans and Chinese and Arabs considered their values to be universal (though apparently Romans legal scholars had the concept of "natural law" which they got from the Greeks which seems to map pretty closely to that idea, independently of Christianity and related universal religions).
2wedrifid12y
Thankyou. And yes, I wholeheartedly agree!
2TheOtherDave12y
I suspect you meant "I certainly wouldn't say"... confirm?
[-][anonymous]12y40

I agree that finding the optimal course of action for humans dosen't mean much if it dosen't include ethics. But humans in order to do that often construct and reason within systems that don't include ethics in their optimization criteria.

There is a sometimes subtle but important difference between thinking and and considering "this is the optimal course of action optimizing for X and only X" and discussing it and between saying "you obviously should be optimizing for X and only X."

I argue that this is former is sometimes a useful tool... (read more)

Coercing sexual intercourse via physical violence or the threat thereof.

1CuSithBell12y
This seems a lacking definition. Do you disagree that, say, drugging or blackmailing someone in order to have sex with them is rape? Note: This post is explicitly not about PUA. I do not believe that I have heard of any PUA technique involving roofies or blackmail.
1wedrifid12y
Blackmail is an interesting one. It probably depends somewhat on the nature of the blackmail and whether sex is the only option for payment provided. Since I approve of both blackmail and prostitution it would seem somewhat inconsistent of me to label a combination of the two to be either rape or immoral. But there is huge scope for abuse of power here and any abuse of power for the purpose of extracting sexual favours tends to be viscerally offensive to me. My preferred solution here would be the same one that I would use for all instances of blackmail - strict legislation requiring contracts. Blackmail should be legal only if a contract is signed by both parties detailing what knowledge is being hidden permanently in exchange for what payment. Supplement this with extremely severe jail terms for any blackmail done without a contract and for any violation of the terms of the blackmail arrangement. Note that here I refer to the the meaning of blackmail that excludes extortion - which is a whole different kind of moral issue whether it is in regards to money or sex.
1TheOtherDave12y
I'm curious: if (hypothetically) I have a positive legal obligation to report a murder I witness to the authorities, is it legal under your preferred solution for me to instead enter into a blackmail contract with the murderer to hide that knowledge?
1wedrifid12y
I don't have a preference within that hypothetical - it would depend on the circumstance and on what you were planning to do with the money. However if I knew about it I would proceed to blackmail you for the crime you committed. I would prefer it if the legal system was not set up in that manner. It would be better if there was not a legal obligation to report a murder (which is ridiculously hard to enforce) and instead had a positive incentive to blackmail - assuming an efficient system for blackmail was in place.

There's a big difference between asserting something is "irrelevant" versus "incorrect" or "unestablished".

What was irrelevant is that deceit is unethical in many spheres of life. If deceit is unethical for a scientist* but ethical for a general, then knowing that deceit is unethical for a scientist is irrelevant if discussing generals.

What has not been established is whether romance is more like science or war. I think the former position is far weaker than the latter.

* I had a hard time coming up with any role in which an... (read more)

To frame an argument as politically incorrect is to imply that all arguments against it are based on squeamishness.

First, politically correct arguments are obviously a subset of arguments for conclusions that are the same as those reached by politically correct arguments.

Second, that conflates levels.

People don't randomly decide which arguments to give justifying their statements and actions, they tend to give the strongest ones they have available. Arguments that are politically correct are non-truth-citing arguments. The argument that an argument is p... (read more)

2TheOtherDave12y
So, I think I have a reasonable sense of what people mean when they say an argument, or an assertion, is politlcally incorrect. Reading this, though, I begin to suspect that I have no idea what you mean when you say an argument is politically correct. Ordinarily, I don't hear that term used to describe arguments at all, I hear it used to describe people who object to politically incorrect arguments... or who object to arguments on the grounds that they are politically incorrect. Among other things, I can't tell if you intend for "politically correct" and "politically incorrect" to be jointly exhaustive terms, or whether there's a middle ground between them. If the latter, I think I agree with most of what you say here, though I'm not sure how many real-world arguments it applies to.
3lessdazed12y
I mean an argument with a few characteristics: 1. Arguments that are politically correct are non-truth-citing arguments. For example, they don't take the form "It's not true that all violent rapes in the city were perpetrated by immigrants." They take the form "It's insensitive to say that all violent rapes in the city were perpetrated by immigrants." 1. They are a subset of arguments for conclusions that are the same as those reached by politically correct arguments. For example, "We've done experiments, and the results suggest no difference in intelligence between Koreans and Chinese, controlling for other factors, there are probably no measurable differences between the groups" is not a PC argument, because it appeals to truth. "The assumption that Koreans are smarter than Chinese is racist, if you properly controlled for environmental differences, there would be no measured difference between the groups," has a very similar conclusion, and is a PC argument. It's not the argument's conclusion that makes it PC or not. 1. Not all non-truth-citing arguments are PC ones. For example, arguing that something is wrong because "A Muslim said it" is obviously neither truth citing nor PC. PC arguments are those that are rationalizations for a particular set of conclusions. Truth-citing and non-truth-citing are just poles of a range. Arguments such as evolutionary debunking arguments attempt to show a loose relationship between a proposition and the truth - loose, neither tight nor non-existent. Unlike PC arguments, PI arguments are just those with conclusions or implicit assumptions targeted by PC arguments. Mercy said "To frame an argument as politically incorrect is to imply that all arguments against it are based on squeamishness. It's a transparent attempt to exploit the mechanism you describe..." this is largely true. The framing corresponds to a certain degree with reality in each case. Positions for which the best argument is "My opponent's arguments is

Given that Bob has the option of creating greater average utility by asking Alices home instead I don't see this as a problem.

This seems to be a straw man. I don't recall ever hearing someone advocating having sex with people that would experience buyers remorse over those that would remember the experience positively. That would be a rather absurd position.

What you are saying is true only in a universe where picking up Carol and engaging in a win/lose, marginally-positive-sum interaction with her is the single best thing Bob can do to maximise utili

... (read more)

No one for example has stated explicitly that the "racial group X" has more or less genetic intelligence in this thread

I've been told Jews are smarter on average than most races. But I was told that by Jews so it is conceivable that self serving bias could apply. I mention this because if what the pop-theory suggested was accurate (not something I would particularly support) it would be a case where environmental pressures and all sorts of discrimination of a specific group of people actually increased relative IQ.

7JoshuaZ12y
Tangent: The data is actually about Ashkenazic Jews only. The result is consistent across a wide range of tests, including not just IQ but also Wonderlic and others. It is deeply unclear if this is due to environmental, genetic or other effects. There's also been some suggestion that the Ashkenazic population for some reason has a lot of outliers that are what is actually causing the result. There's a disproportionate number of Nobel Prize winners who fit in that category. However, it is important to note that Ashkenazic Jews are one of the most widely studied groups in the world when it comes to genetics and so far no alleles that seem to have to do with intelligence have been discovered in the population.

I think that, for many centuries, the Ashkenazi environment rewarded establishing a rigid social structure that studies and followed strict rules (preventing assimilation), but selected very strongly for individuals that could step outside the status quo at the right time. I can see how that would lead to Nobel prize winners.

Given the time scale involved, it doesn't seem like genetic selection could change more than how well you integrate successful memes. Some anecdotes from my own genealogy about relevant selection pressures:

  • Marriages were usually arranged by parents to get the best possible match. My great, great grandfather was wealthy for the village they were in. When he needed a husband for his daughter, he asked around for the most promising yeshiva student, and gave him a ten year stipend to continue study for marrying her (apparently the standard was more like 2 years).

  • When Poland got jumped, my grandparents ended up on the Soviet side of the line. My grandmother went back to the Nazi side twice to try to convince her friends and family that they had a better chance of surviving with the Soviets, but they didn't want to leave the cities to go somewhere unknown. The

... (read more)
9Bill_McGrath12y
Your grandfather sounds like a badass.
3drc500free12y
He emigrated to Israel in 1948 with a wife, two kids, and no money. He worked as a day laborer, claiming various construction skills to whoever pulled up and asked. One time he claimed he was a plumber in the old country, and spent two days installing an outdoor toilet. He finally saved up enough to buy a small grocery, so that he could run his own business. He walked out back after buying the place to find - the outhouse he had built years before. He was definitely a badass, but the cancer was pretty far along by the time I knew him and I didn't speak Hebrew.
4Douglas_Knight12y
That does not seem to me a very plausible suggestion. Outliers could explain the Nobel prizes, but would not affect the mean, which is measured to be different. It is conceivable that some non-gaussian distribution would explain both, but larger populations that have been studied in more detail exhibit bell curves, or at least thin tails (ie, not affecting the mean).
3PhilosophyTutor12y
This fact alone leads me to think that the most parsimonious explanation is just that Ashkenazi Jews have a cultural tradition of scholarship, whereas public-school culture in the English-speaking world is often starkly anti-intellectual. If we've turned over the genetic rock and had a good look under it without finding anything interesting, we should update to think it more likely that the explanation is under a different rock.
[-][anonymous]12y40

I may get down-voted for saying this but, I can't help but feel this is politicking-inspired misrepresentation.

I agree with much of this analysis but I don't think that Vladimir_M has (as far as I can tell) made any substantive comments in the direction you imply.

I have made comments about this topic on LW on several occasions, but the part about me "ha[ving] said the same things openly," the "same things" referring to the views characterized in the last paragraph of the same post, is pure confabulation. (In fact, I'd find it surprising if this relatively new commenter is even aware of what I wrote about the topic in the past, since I don't remember mentioning it in quite a while.)

Moreover, the claim about "hyper-focusing" is particularly absurd, given that nobody mentioned this concrete topic at all, until Jandila brought it up and attributed it to me in bizarre fashion, clearly striving to bring this topic into focus. This attribution started with the statement "I would be unsurprised to learn you believe " -- and after a few comments, in which I made no specific mention of , it morphed into "[V.M.] has already said the same things [referring to a caricatured version of ] openly." Surely it is not unreasonable to demand higher standards of discourse than that -- and here, of all places?

But even aside from all that, the analysis is full of various other more or less subtle misleading claims and rhetorical tricks. Unless the standards on LW have really deteriorated, finding these should be a fairly simple exercise for the reader.

3[anonymous]12y
Reading this thread I'm somewhat dispirited to feel that you indeed may be right in most of your points with regard to the failings on the community. One can feel the McCarthaynist undertones of the discourse. Meta discussions seem to have been skilfully misdirected and subverted into what is for nearly all intents and purposes political and ideological warfare, where guilty until proven innocent reigns as the norm.

As I mentioned in the other sub-thread, it's really tiring to have you continually reframing what I say to make attackable arguments out of it. Unless your sole interest in LessWrong is to score rhetorical points (i.e., trolling), it's a rather bad idea to keep doing that to people.

Note that the text you quoted from my comment has nothing to do with PUA. It is a portion of my evidence that your professed approach to personal development (i.e., trying things only if they cost nothing) is Not Winning.

On LessWrong, rationality equals winning, not pretending... (read more)

If you mean the quoted claim, does your previous misunderstanding cause you to update your belief in your own motive-grasping powers?

I don't believe I said I misunderstood anything and looking back at what I have previously said doesn't lead me to that conclusion either. I just didn't see any point in being more confrontational than polite disagreement. (And I give myself a big burst of self-approval reward for my restraint.)

Based on other times I have noticed that I misunderstood something I expect that I would update rather significantly if such were the case. I hate making mistakes like that.

Many people are in debt. If you are, then your net worth is less than $191.

This is in line with what game theory would predict.

Perhaps the reason you're being downvoted is because you're confusing game theory with behaviorism. Variable reinforcement schedules, and all that.

Also, I expect if you phrased the last part of your comment, say, as:

"People enjoy a little variety and unpredictability from their partners, and generally prefer not to have to come up with all the ideas for what to do."

It'd be less likely to be perceived as some sort of chauvinism. That statement, as it happens is true of both men and women.

(Li... (read more)

Assuming for the sake of argument that women are sentient, but also that they have absolutely no free will when it comes to sexual relationships and that they can be piloted like a remote-controlled drone by a man who has cracked the human sexual signalling language (a hypothesis only slightly more extreme than the PUA hypothesis), that would still leave us with the question of how to maximise the utility of these strange, mindless creatures given that they are sentient and their utility counts as much as any other sentient being's.

PUA might be compatible ... (read more)

5pjeby12y
LOL. Given that IRL Goreans (male and female) exist, someone who wants that sort of thing needn't try converting anyone from the general dating pool. I've paraphrased your comment to make it gender neutral and preference-neutral. The thing is, what maximizes our happiness isn't always what's predictably enjoyable. (See prospect theory, fun theory, liking vs. wanting, variable reinforcement...) Excitement and variety are very often the spice of life. Frankly, having a partner who does nothing but worship you is both annoying and unattractive... even though it might sound like a good idea on paper. (For one thing, you can feel pressured to reciprocate.) I'm reminded of Eliezer's "fun theory" posts about the evolution of concepts of heaven: that if you're a poor farmer then no work to do and streets paved with gold sounds like heaven to you, but once you actually got there, it'd be bloody boring. In the same way, a lot of romantic ideals for relationships sound like heaven only when you haven't actually gotten there yet.
2PhilosophyTutor12y
I think we need to be careful of false dichotomies and straw men, since so much of PUA doctrine/knowledge/dogma (pick your preferred term) is communicated in the form of dichotomies, which I suspect are false to at least a significant extent. The possibility I advanced was that "women are happier if they are communicated with honestly, treated as equal partners in a relationship, given signals that they are high-status in the form of compliments and "romantic" gestures and so forth". This does not seem to me to be the same thing as saying that women are happier with "a partner who does nothing but worship [them]", although I can see how if you were trained to see relationships in terms of the PUA alpha/beta dichotomy it might seem to be the same thing to you. Most obviously treating someone as an equal partner is inconsistent with doing nothing but worshipping that person. You also are asserting without evidence that the kind of relationship I just described would not be fun if you were actually in one, which seems to me to contain implicit status attack, since it assumes that I have never been in such a relationship and hence that I am speaking from a position of epistemological disadvantage compared to yourself. Would I be far wrong if I guessed that your data set for this implicit assumption is based on interacting with a significant number of PUAs? If so the underlying problem may well simply be self-selection bias. The kind of people who have long-term relationships based on honesty, equality and support are probably unlikely to self-select for participation in PUA forums and hence their experiences and viewpoints will be under-represented in those circles compared to their prevalence in the general population.
3pjeby12y
Actually, it's my observation that men who consciously make an effort to do what you said, actually end up doing what I said, from the point of view of the people they interact with. That is, they are poorly calibrated and overshoot the mark. (Been there, did that.) Hm. Sorry - the important piece left out of my explicit reasoning is above: i.e., that people who think they are "communicating honestly", et al usually end up doing something completely different; it's the absence of that which I implicitly assume you've had... and which is AFAICT a less common experience for men (with no implied connotations about status) if for no other reason than that women are on average better socially calibrated than men. Yes, you would. ;-) Data point: I have been married for 15 years and would not classify myself as a PUA in any sense, although based on what statistics I've read about men in general, I would have to consider myself to have had above-average sexual success (though not drastically so) before I got married -- largely due to behaviors PUAs would've described as social game, direct game, and qualifying. (However, the terms didn't exist at the time, as far as I know -- this was pre-internet for the most part.) At no time were a lack of honesty, equality, or support a part of what I did or sought, so I'm not sure why you think they are anathema to PUA goals. PUA literature, like so many other things, is largely what you make of it. When I look at it, I find the parts that are positive, life-affirming, and utility-increasing for everybody involved. So your objections look to me like strawman attacks. One thing I have observed is that once I've read the parts of PUA theory that sound good (i.e., more politically correct), I find that on reading the less politically-correct things, they are actually advocating similar behaviors, and simply describing them differently. Some use more inflammatory and controversial language laced with all sorts of negative judgments

I recommend that you take a break from this thread, go think about something else for a while, come back to what I said, and see if you still believe I'm making a claim about comparisons between two groups of people.

If you do, then I agree that we should end this discussion here.

1wedrifid12y
When I was in a similar circumstance I had to try very hard to stop myself from making puns on DoubleReed.
2TheOtherDave12y
That didn't even occur to me. (hat-tip)

And you are not the only party in the engagement. Therefore it is not consensual.

That is not what he said. He said, "If I did not consent and she did, I would still want her to do it." Your objection does not apply to this, but others clearly do...

Edited to add: He may be conflating "consent" and "voiced consent"?

The thing is I would like to have her do it without my consent. Along the lines of of "Three Worlds Collide" morality (as it applies to me and by those in the set I consider to be the pool of potential mates and without any interest in being free to do such things myself to others). That would be seriously awesome. Much more exciting!

Wait... are we talking about the old adage "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or the new adage that doesn't appear when googling for it, "Do unto others as they would have them do unt... (read more)

Yeah but... he gets to decide how old is "old" - and from what I an tell, his idea of "old" is pretty darn young. Those women who simply cannot be manipulated into the "old" category easily fall into the "jealous" category.

I just deleted the two paragraphs about OkTrends. Also, see here.

Just call them fat. If they're skinny enough to disprove that, resort to calling them ugly.

I'm surprised this comment was made and is so highly upvoted because it doesn't meet your usual standards.

I, surprisingly enough, disagree. In the context of casual conversation the meaning is well enough understood. Normal people having conversations don't use precise technical terms but they get along fine - and often wouldn't even understand the formal and precise terminology very well anyway.

It just isn't reasonable to dismiss "'women prefer jerks' is something which is commonly believed" as undefined.

Mind you I myself don't particularly f... (read more)

5lessdazed12y
I still a not sure if you are asserting that the phrase "women prefer jerks" has a single, commonly understood meaning among everyone, or among men, or what. Their understanding of formal terminology is barely relevant. If a someone says that their printer "is shit", I want to know if they mean that it burns through ink cartridges, jams frequently, prints with low quality, or what. I am unsure as to what an informal phrasing means, specifically I am unsure about the extent to which it means the same thing to different people. I'm not blaming people for being informal, I'm questioning how much agreement there can be among the people around hundreds of thousands of water coolers in the world when such an imprecise phrase is used. That around any individual water cooler people communicate well enough is not in doubt. It's not being dismissed, it's being partitioned according to my best estimation of what its speakers and listeners actually mean. There are probably different meanings because the phrase is not very specific. Meta-statements about something like "the belief shared by people who believe this statement is true" are being dismissed.
[-][anonymous]12y40

That is not really discussion about PUA, but rather about what is problematic about discussing PUA.

I agree as far as this goes. But remember that we don't chiefly want to prevent people calling women ugly. We chiefly want to prevent this, because we think it increases actual rape.

Is the 'we' royal, referring to some specific group you are a part of or a normative presumption that I, and the people in some group of which I am a part all must have this attitude? Because for my part I am perfectly ok with being outraged at insulting women by calling them ugly for its own sake and not due to any belief in some complicated causal chain whereby talking abo... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y40

Nothing wrong with curiosity. :)

Depends on how you define die out. They didn't leave a genetic mark much beyond those specific adaptations. Generally speaking waves of farmer expansion seem to be more actual literal expansions than cultural diffusions of farming techniques, despite some mDNA sometimes sticking around from the previous hunter gatherer populations.

Pre-farming people so clearly do or did intermix with farmers, perhaps they culturally assimilated or perhaps their women and men where just enslaved, who knows, but both their small numbers and ... (read more)

That's not quite analogous, given that what one complains about does have bearing on whether someone is actually "nice" and not so much bearing on whether someone is actually "ugly".

I agree that it's not perfectly analogous. Nevertheless, more times than I care to keep track of I have witnessed people lambasting men who complain about lack of relationship success because they pattern match to the Heartless Bitches International construct. They see the black hair and hide the ketchup.

The whole goth guy/ alternative look point misses a significant part of the appeal. People (particularly men) who prominently display membership in a subculture often have a strong sense of self. This kind of self-confidence is generally attractive to women, so those who aren't immediately put off by his group identity are likely attracted to that confidence and the charisma that goes with it.

Practically, this means that alternative styles only tend to work when they're genuine and you're comfortable with them. Someone who feels most natural in more conservative clothing may actually hurt themselves by trying niche appeal, because they need to belong to that niche.

2[anonymous]12y
In other words it comes of as incongruent.

Human history has so much mixing of races throughout,

Such as...?

and usually there are social norms against mixing.

If you already knew this, why would you find it surprising?

3DoubleReed12y
Uh... any culture? The Jews have gone around and if you notice Sephardic and Ashkenazi look incredibly different, because they mixed with the people in the different areas. Asia (and specifically China) has a variety of races that have all mixed with each other over the years. In the Americas we also saw lots of mixing of the races with hispanics, despite amazing racism and hatred. Hell, American slavery caused a lot of mixing despite it being entirely based on racism. I mean when races don't mix, like Japan's harsh xenophobia, seems to be the exception. While xenophobia and racism is so much of a part of history and so many cultures, why is all this mixing happening if we are attracted to similar people?
[-][anonymous]12y110

While xenophobia and racism is so much of a part of history and so many cultures, why is all this mixing happening if we are attracted to similar people?

This is really sloppy thinking.

Suppose I on average found category X of dissimilar people, less attractive because they are different, this would not mean I would find every member less attractive than average.

In fact I'll go a step further, while I may find category X on average less attractive because they are different (which is a penalty groups A, B, C, D, ... share), they may more commonly have a specific trait or set of traits (which A, B, C, D may not share) that makes them on average more attractive to me.

Also historically, people really haven't been that picky, its amazing to what extent we chose those that are available. While barriers between populations that coexist on the same territory do exist, they are not absolute. And all else being equal the smaller group will quickly become basically a hybrid population, while the larger population will still have a bunch of people who match their previous genetic profile. To give an extreme example If you are the last member of your tribe, the only way you get to mate is to find a partner outside your tribe.

2DoubleReed12y
Okay. That definitely makes more sense. While I can certainly understand why minorities would mix with majorities, that doesn't really explain the opposite. But I suppose the opposite isn't really that true. After all, looking at America, we see that blacks have lots of european ancestry, but we don't really see whites having lots of african ancestry (unless I'm mistaken). My example with Jews explains how Jews took from the majority populations, not the other way around. Thanks for the clarification.

That's because people of mixed European and African ancestry are called "black".

[-][anonymous]12y130

And upper class people of European and native American ancestry are called "white" in many places in Latin America.

The majority and minority group, by definition are called different if they consider themselves different, otherwise there is no minority.

But consider the toy model of a society made up 90% of group C and 10% of group D. There is no discrimination, no class differences, no differential birth rates, no selection pressures, no gene expression complications, no differences in cultural norms. I don't know why in the world they call themselves C and D then or why any researcher would divide them into two groups for the purposes of a study, but lets say for the sake of argument they do.

Lets say you have X generations later, purely from a genetic perspective a 80% group C, 5% group D and 15% hybrid CD. Lets say you have x+n generations after 60% group C and 40% group CD.

Regardless of whether Hybrid group CD identifies as "C" or as "D", biologically speaking the minority population is the one that hybridised, perhaps even vanished if they where tiny enough.

7DoubleReed12y
The point is the minority population becomes the hybrid, and the majority population changes relatively less.
4[anonymous]12y
Also why did you implicitly assume that extensive mixed populations are always the result of extensive mixing between groups? They could simply have higher fitness! Introgression does happen, also things like hybrid vigour or outbreeding depression might make a reasonable size mixed population more or less prominent (and desirable as mates) as the generations go on.
2pedanterrific12y
You and I have very different definitions of "a lot". This makes perfect sense. Downvote reversed.
9juliawise12y
23andme says "the average proportion of European ancestry that African Americans have . . . is from 20 percent to 25 percent." I'd call that a lot.
2DoubleReed12y
Remember, people consider Obama black when in reality he's just as white as he is black. One just has to look at the massive variety of shades of skin color that we associate with "African-American" compared to "African" to realize there was lots of mixing.

This is fantastic. Well researched, fairly well written.

I have a niggling general complaint about how LW seems to use rationality as just a general good word. It just, icks me a bit. I suspect that it might really turn off new readers.

Seriously, my one complaint is that when reading this on an iPad it took me too long to scroll past all the references.

I can't wait to read more of this.

7A1987dM12y
Yeah, there should be a "skip to comments" link before the bibliography, or a show/hide button or something.
3dbaupp12y
I agree that it would be nice for articles with long bibliographies to have a show/hide options (starting hidden). I am unsure how this would be possible at the moment, so a "skip to end" link might have to do.
2Karmakaiser12y
What would you prefer? Instrumental Rationality is a bit of a mouthful, Common Sense is an abused term is means whatever the speaker believes in, and our super dictionary "Acting as to maximize expected utility" seems formal. I agree we pepper the word Rationality enough that it may turn off outsiders, but I am personally not seeing other terms or phrases that don't either under formalize to the point of meaningless folksiness or over formalize to the point of turning even more people off.

If you find that "Rational" belongs at the beginning of most posts, then it can go entirely unsaid.

Much like as I realized just recently, we really don't need a symbol for "such that" in ∃x(Px)

BTW, given the usual reaction to posts about relationships, I expect this post to get a fair number of downvotes. But I would genuinely like to hear from downvoters about why they're downvoting. Previous explanations were useful.

Individually very minor, petty reasons, befitting a very minor, petty action:

1) It bored me.

2) Your research skills are very impressive and I'd rather them be directed towards CEV or the like.

3) Ugh field concerning this site and sex/dating questions.

4) There's no puzzle to it; you're not illustrating any broader methodological point or coming to any new conclusions, just acting as a clearinghouse for dating advice.

5) "A Rational Approach to..."

Just to agree with the above, and expand my feelings:

I don't see a lot of new ideas here. It would surprise me if an average less wrong reader hadn't spent a little time researching this topic, and all of this is fairly mainstream information.

I have a very strong ugh field set up around instrumentally pursuing females. After a bad break up, I spent about 6 months learning PUA, I had quite good success (my physical appearance is not lacking), but found the whole thing to be so pathetically empty compared to previous "organic" relationship that I felt defeated even though I wasn't.

I realize that this can probably be accounted for, and note that it is one area that the PUA community seems to be lacking in. Lots of emotionally unfulfilling sex isn't optimal by a long shot, though it may be beneficial for a certain subset of individuals.

Anyways, one of the most important things I learned was to try and avoid too much theory, and break it down into individual actionable items. Given that with this topic especially, readers will likely come from all over the spectrum of possible skill levels, that might be a hard thing to do. But perhaps behavioral exercises... links to resources and specific suggestions for conversation, fashion, body language.

4RomanDavis12y
On #5, part of me wants to agree, because we're not a sciencer about.com, but another part of me really wants there to be more lesswrong members becoming more instrumentally rational. Maybe even, as an exercise, asking members to find there own ugh field, use the value of scholarship, compile useful material into a quality post (along the same lines as Luke does), apply it in real life, and then report on it, either in a discussion thrsad or in an offshoot of the main post. This seems like a really basic thing that a rationalist gym should/ would do.
2lukeprog12y
So thorough! Thanks. As for being boring, I will admit this post was written before I decided to sometimes try harder with my writing style.

In general I'm concerned with the way the community is headed - I joined for the philosophy, I'm less interested in reading about analytic people's approaches to basic social interaction. Some days I feel like this site has gone from Less Wrong to Wrong Planet.

So I guess I'm downvoting as a political stance, rather than anything to do with the quality of your writing. Sorry, I'm afraid that's not helpful.

I'd be concerned if the community failed to explore these sort of topics.

Mere "philosophy" would be kind of empty. Once the idea of instrumental rationality was held up, the idea that rationalists should win, then it's either start trying to apply it to real problems, or concede that we didn't really mean it and that we just want to talk about stuff that makes us sound intelligent and sophisticated. That "applied rationality" features prominently here adds enormously to the credibility of LW and especially of the authors who have something to say about it, at least in my eyes.

Perhaps the problem is whether this generates the perception of "self-help" as opposed to "becoming awesome". The former kinda smacks of low status and might turn some people off, while impressive success is obviously not a problem. Perhaps it's a presentation issue (I suck at PR so I can't judge), or perhaps we just haven't amassed a sufficient wealth of evidence of awesomeness to overcome the negative connotations.

[-][anonymous]12y190

I second this position. Despite the fact that I will probably benefit from these self-help kinds of posts, I'm nonetheless more interested in posts about creating new rationality skills and dissolving philosophical dilemmas.

Also, affixing the word "rational" to everything is mildly grating.

I would also prefer more quality philosophy like the original sequences, but I prefer quality posts about relationships to low-quality posts about philosophy that present rambling thoughts or stuff that's already been covered to death.

7Jayson_Virissimo12y
I joined for the same reason, but since I maintain a Stoic stance I'm actually very comfortable with my philosophy impinging on my practical considerations. Philosophy need not be impractical (although I agree that some things, like "rational gift buying for persons 8 or under", are too disconnected from the philosophy espoused here that it would be best we didn't encourage those kinds of posts).
2NancyLebovitz12y
My impression is that sometimes there are more epistemic or otherwise technical articles, and sometimes there are more instrumental rationality articles. I don't have a feeling for whether it's mostly random variation, or if articles of one sort tends to inspire more of the same until people run out of ideas and/or get sick of it.

I downvoted for several reasons.

  1. The post is long, yet there isn't much of value here, just a lot of things that are obvious (e.g. goth dress might help success with goths, here is a graph to demonstrate that already totally intuitive bit of info). People on LW like to see obvious things restated in formal ways, with graphs and footnotes. This feels like accessing secret knowledge via x-rationalist super powers. But it isn't. It isn't even standard learning. I see this kind of thing a lot on LW.
  2. Relationship advice is outside of the LW comparative advantage (and I suspect absolute advantage as well).
  3. I get the feeling this is about to turn into a commercial for polyamory, and I don't want that to happen. There have now been several posts devoted to advocating polyamory as a "rational" relationship style. To me this feels a lot like hearing people talking about creating "rationally-planned" utopian communes. (It's no coincidence that polyamory and utopian socialism have so often been found together, from the early Christian Adamites, to the Radical Swedenborgians, to the counterculture hippies in the 1970s.) It's depressing and non-productive to see people falling into the same traps over and over.
8orthonormal12y
I didn't downvote, but I didn't upvote, and I'd actually be a bit embarrassed if it were the first thing that a friend of mine saw on Less Wrong. This is mostly due to a few lingering phrases that, although I know you don't intend them that way, have widely known sexist connotations. For instance: I know you mean to say "the current community of self-identified rationalists contains many more men than women", but you can easily imagine what connotations someone else might imbue it with. I got an 'ugh' reaction upon first reading it, even though I know you meant better. Similarly, for reasons of connotation/signaling I'd prefer it if you avoided examples that fit the "nice guy's lament" genre, or at least put a citation to them rather than treating them as too obvious to bother backing up. ETA: I should mention that I hold the language of Main-level posts to a much higher standard than I do Discussion posts or comments. If you're making something public, then you have the burden of proper communication.
5grouchymusicologist12y
You might recall that (befitting my very nature) I was extremely grouchy about a previous foray of yours into this territory. I'm not downvoting the current post because I think you've more-or-less successfully avoided the worst of the problems I foresaw if you went down the previously outlined path. I also haven't upvoted the current post. First, I endorse Nominull and Tetronian's comments above, with respect to this kind of topic not really being central to the LW mission (but that's okay as long as community members find it valuable and it doesn't do any harm). However, following on those, I think it is much more important that LW remain a welcoming and inclusive place than that this topic be discussed. By that I mean that I would very strongly encourage you to keep these posts gender- and orientation-neutral -- not just nominally so, but really at the level of substance. This post certainly succeeds in that, which is encouraging. (The co-authors are indispensable here, I think.) And I hope you will be open to simply shutting this series of posts down if the comments on them can't maintain a similar level of decorum and inclusivity. (I can hardly imagine new women joining this community if PUA and "seduction" are routinely discussed in comments.)

Yes, it would seem so.

Unfortunately, even living in a very student-dense city and deliberately targeting locales near universities doesn't seem to have quite the effect I was hoping for. Things are not helped by the fact that French, the main language of 2/3 of the population here, distinctly lacks key words and concepts that seem necessary for bayesianism. The word "evidence", for example, has no French equivalents to my knowledge - even the French wikipedia page on Bayes' Theorem struggles with this.

As I've said, I'm most likely doing a lot of... (read more)

2shminux12y
Oh, that explains why Quebecois seem to think and behave in such silly ways :). At least it's the way it looks from the other end of the country.
4DaFranker12y
It's the way it looks and feels from here too - I seem to be a rare exception in considering reason, logic and knowledge to have any value (besides the obvious monetary value of "knowledge" of things related to a business) among native French speakers here. Campaigns to "preserve language and culture" and keep forcing children to go to only French schools and study only in French make me cringe constantly.
5[anonymous]12y
That's kinda spurious reasoning. By that standard, people who speak languages where evidentiality is considered so relevant it's marked grammatically (like Turkish, or Apache, or Yukaghir) should on average be much more rational than people who don't. Appeal to the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis is usually a quick ticket to confusion.
2DaFranker12y
I did not mean to imply an appeal to Sapir-Whorf concepts. Disregarding every other factor, I do seem to be a rare exception among native French speakers in this culture. Whether I would also be a rare exception, a less rare exception, or an even more rare exception in some other language or some other culture, is a different matter, which is itself worth examining in its own separate right for its own reasons. Other than that, I agree that what you've said does follow, and to the best of my knowledge isn't currently supported by any public research and only has sporadic anecdotal evidence. My objection to teaching only French is that it's a well-known fact that knowing multiple languages helps immensely with various aspects of cognition and intelligence, and learning multiple languages during childhood has been shown to be an overwhelming net positive. It follows that forcing children to learn only one language has a net negative impact. This fact is perceived, agreed, and then waived by appeal to consequence: "If children learn English, they will only speak English [because all regional neighbors do], so less and less people will speak French, so our culture will die!" And that's what really makes me cringe.
2chaosmosis12y
Well, you've got to consider complicating factors, which makes this hard to measure. Those other countries aren't very affluent compared to the USA and their educational system is probably worse, plus they don't have access to the institutional infrastructure of knowledge like we do. Also, measuring rationality seems hard, etc. there's tons of problems that always pop up when we try to evaluate things like this. I mean, I think you'd probably be mostly right and that there's not much difference in rationality between different language users, but for other reasons than the apparent average rationality of certain language-users.
[-][anonymous]12y30

Sorry, I shouldn't have just stated a claim without some evidence.

Here are some examples of semi-obvious statistical manipulation happening in the Chinese census data. I don't necessarily agree with all of their conclusions (e.g., they assume that the One Child Policy applies to everyone), but there are enough signs of tampering for my taste.

Oh my! You freaked me out with your knife-play link. I opened it and didn't look at it immediately, so later came to find I had a tab that had googled knife play. I was like "omg!!! I swear I didn't google knife play!!!". I am happy to discover that google isn't reading my mind, it is just you linking to unexpected things.

But it does bring up a point that there are many puritanical holdovers (besides just mono/poly/swing/etc, which was brought up in the OP) that even the most rationalist thinker may still have, especially in regards to sex and romance. I think it would make a good post if someone wanted to do it.

4Prismattic12y
I don't think that feeling an aversion to the idea of knife play (or masochism more generally) is a "puritanical holdover" in the same sense as an objection to deviations from traditional western monogamy. Most people really do dislike pain for self-evident evolutionary reasons. Bloodless knife-play looks like an application of misattribution of arousal, but with a lot more potential for something to go seriously wrong if somebody miscalculates a bit than there is, say, standing on a swaying bridge. I think consenting adults should pretty much be able to do whatever they want in the bedroom, but no one is ever going to interest me in knife play, and I would strenuously object to my aversion being labelled "puritanism." I prefer the term "self-preservation instinct."
2daenerys12y
I think you made some really good points, and I agree that I surely would never want to say that people who don't participate in thing x or y have puritanical beliefs. Let me see if I can re-word better: Some things that we grew up with, we tend to accept. They seem so natural that we often don't question them rationally. It would be interesting if someone else (not me because as you can tell, I suck at writing a lot of this stuff) made a post about more things that even rationalists might not generally think to question. The types of puritanical holdovers that I was personally thinking about deal more with things like "slut shaming" or body issues. On the flip-side there is the equally harmful idea that men will chase anything and have no self-control, etc. Did you know that for much of history people actually believed the reverse; You kept women locked up because they are ruled by their passions and would go run off and sleep with any young thing, while the males could control their desires. Thank you for the wikipedia link. I had not heard of that study before.
1Prismattic12y
Another history BA here, so yes. Blame the Cistercian monks for the pre-Victorian view of male and female libido. I mean, who better to rely on for accounts of sexual psychology than a bunch of cloistered celibates?

Okay, though you should probably be aware that those are somewhat idiosyncratic definitions of rape and violence.

There's no reason to store the actual knowledge - at least, only the person who wants it hidden needs to keep a copy. You make a document containing a description of the information to be concealed - both parties get a hash and only the blackmailee gets a copy of the document. Then you just store a hash in the contract, and if the contract is ever broken, then you show the original document to prove they are liable.

I'm not sure that I am.

Are 9 year old girls "sexy" because some humans find them sexy? Or is "sexy" in the eye of the beholder here?

Sexy is a transistive verb attached to the person who considers the other person sexy, not to the subject of said attentions. It may so happen that there's more than one person who finds a certain subject sexy - it's still something that attaches to the group. What can be said about the subject is "she is symmetrical, unblemished, has large breasts and a low body fat percentage" and it so happens... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y30

Do people really make that mistake a lot around here?

There is a whole host of empirically demonstrated biases in humans that work in these two directions under different circumstances. LWers may be aware of many of them, but they are far from immune.

Also note that 'should' goes on the map too. Not just in the "here be dragons" sense, but also indicated by the characterization that the way is "best".

Agreed but, should is coloured in with different ink on the map than is. I admit mapping should can prove to be as much of a challen... (read more)

2thomblake12y
I didn't point this out before, but this is actually a good argument in favor of the 'ethics later' approach. It makes no sense to start drawing paths on your map before you've filled in all of the nodes. (Counterargument: assume stochasticity / a non-fully-observable environment). Also, if this technique actually works, it should be able to be applied to political contexts as well. PUA is a relatively safer area to test this, since while it does induce mind-killing (a positive feature for purposes of this test) it does not draw in a lot of negative attention from off-site, which is one of the concerns regarding political discussion. I am majorly in favor of researching ways of reducing/eliminating mind-killing effects.
2thomblake12y
So an analogous circumstance would be: if we were constructing a weighted directed graph representing routes between cities, we'd first put in all the nodes and connections and weights in black ink, and then plan the best route and mark it in red ink? If so, that implies the discussion of "PUA" would include equal amounts of "X results in increased probability of the subject laughing at you" and "Y results in increased probability of the subject slapping you" and "Z results in increased probability of the subject handing you an aubergine". If the discussion is not goal-directed, I don't see how it could be useful, especially for such a large space as human social interaction.
1[anonymous]12y
But it would be goal directed: "To catalogue beliefs and practices of PUAs and how well they map to reality." Without breaking the metaphor, we are taking someone else's map and comparing it to our own map. Our goal being to update our map where their map of reality (black ink) is clearly better or at the very least learn if their map sucks. And to make this harder we aren't one individual but a committee comparing the two maps. Worse some of us love their black ink more than their red one and vice versa, and can't shut up about them. Let's set up separate work meetings for the two issues so we know that black ink arguments have no place on meeting number 2. and the person is indulging his interests at the expense of good map making. The reason why I favour black first is that going red first we risk drawing castles in clouds rather than a realizable destinations.
3thomblake12y
Oops. Yes, that's absolutely possible, and is (on reflection) what we have been talking about this whole time. So the challenge, then, would be to distinguish the black from red ink in PUA, and make sure we're only talking about the black ink in the 'no ethics' thread. I have no intuitions about how feasible that is, but I withdraw my assertion it is 'impossible', as I was clearly talking about something else.
2[anonymous]12y
Yes! We can't take PUA's at their word. Even when they believe with unwavering certainty they are talking black ink, they are in the best of cases as confused as we are and in the worst quite a bit more confused. Also some people just like to lie to others to get to the red destination faster (heh). It is hard, but apparently enough posters think we can make a decent map of the reality of romance that they try and write up posts and start discussions about them. Limiting ourselves to the more popular PUAs I think we can also get a pretty good idea of what their idea of reality is. Comparing the two and seeking evidence to prove or disprove our speculations about reality seems like a worthy exercise.
6pjeby12y
I think this is a horrendously bad idea - "more popular" is not always positively correlated with "more correct". ;-) Also, "more popular" isn't always positively correlated with "more useful", either. The most popular PUA material is about indirect game, social tricks, and the like... and that's why it's popular. That doesn't mean those things are the most useful ways to get into relationships. Consider Bob, who believes he is unattractive to women. Will Bob be more interested in course A which tells him there are secrets to make women like him, or course B, which teaches him how to notice which women are already attracted to him? His (quite common) belief makes course B less attractive, even if course B would be far more useful. Of available courses that fit Bob's existing belief structure, the ones that will be most popular will be the ones that purport to explain his unattractiveness (and the attractiveness of other men) in a way that Bob can understand. And if they offer him a solution that doesn't sound too difficult (i.e. act like a jerk), then this will be appealing. What's more, because Bob is convinced of his unattractiveness and fundamental low worth where women are concerned, Bob will be most attracted to courses that involve pretending to be someone he is not: after all, if who he is is unattractive, then of course he needs to pretend to be somebody else, right? I could go on, but my point here is that popularity is a horrible way to select what to discuss, because there's a systematic bias towards "tricks" as being the most marketable thing. However, even companies that sell tricks on the low end of the market to get people interested, usually sell some form of self-improvement as their "advanced" training. (That is, stuff that involves people actually being a different sort of man, rather than simply pretending to be one.) (There are probably exceptions to this, of course.) Anyway, a better selection criterion would be goal relevance. Most PUA
2[anonymous]12y
What popular PUA is saying matters quite a bit because it helps us understand the PUA community as a cultural phenomena it also can help us by helping expose some biases that probably exist to some degree in harder to detect form in higher quality material. Perhaps well respected or esteemed authors (within the PUA community) rather than the ones that sell the most material (where would we even get that data?), are even better for this purpose. But overall I'm not saying we shouldn't extend our analysis to PUA's that are less well known but seem particularly compelling to LessWrong readers. The thing is they have to be put in context.

Could you define rape, please?

Either "Nonconsentual (or coerced) sex" or "Not getting written permission from your date's mother and the universal approval of internet critics before having sex". Seems to depend on who you are talking with and what they are trying to prove.

5[anonymous]12y
No no no wedrifid, the date's mother is clearly not objective. You need to approach a local sociology or woman's studies professor, for preliminary consultation. After that schedule an appointment with your lawyer to set up a proper contract (since an informal written agreement wouldn't stand up to later scrutiny if parties are dissatisfied with the outcomes) that is then reviewed, supplemented by hearings of all involved, by an ethics committee that includes legal experts, psychologists, doctors, philosophers and social workers.
4CuSithBell12y
I strongly urge you to reconsider this entire argument. I'm really worried about the sorts of reactions and arguments flying in this thread / topic. I don't think MixedNuts' post was based on cynical disingenuous argumentation, but rather an honest disagreement with you, a differing view of reality, as in the parable of the blind men and the elephant. If you don't know "what on earth [your interlocutor is] talking about", this should make you less sure of your footing. The umbrella of PUA encompasses harmless advice that seems to have helped a lot of people, as well as vicious misanthropy. Some techniques focus on improving oneself, others on harming others. There are parts of PUA that are problematic wrt consent, and that could help to coerce sex from others. There are (different) parts that should be analyzed here. I'm not attacking you. I'm asking you to be careful. There are vivid warning signs in an alarming proportion of posts on this topic. I do not trust everyone to judge the effects of their actions on others, especially when they could benefit from hiding from themselves the harm they could do. More to the point, in such situations, we should not trust ourselves.
5anonymous25912y
I'm pretty sure the question was rhetorical. Unfortunately, the mere fact that you are raising this concern specifically in this context communicates a certain stance on the underlying issue(s), or, more bluntly, alignment with a certain faction in this particular power-struggle. ...and I'm probably communicating the opposite alignment by replying in this manner. So it goes.
7komponisto12y
Indeed. I have a policy of not commenting on the "underlying issue(s)", but I will permit myself the meta-level remark that the topic in question really does apparently amount to a hot-button dispute in contemporary social politics. In which case, quite frankly, it should be avoided as far as possible on Less Wrong.

It should be noted that, from the perspective of a utilitarian agent in certain environments, it may be the utilitarian action to self-modify into a non-utilitarian agent. That is, an unmodified utilitarian agent participating in certain interactions with non-utilitarian agents may create greater utility by self-modifying into a non-utilitarian agent.

My complaint with the whole "alpha" and "beta" terminology is that it doesn't seem to be derived from canine social structure. The omega rank seems more appropriate to what PUAs call "beta."

5juliawise12y
Reading more, it doesn't seem like any of these terms are accurate even to canine society. They were based on observing unrelated gray wolves kept together in captivity, where their social structures bore little resemblance to their normal groupings in the wild (a breeding pair and their cubs). More accurate terms for would be "parents" and "offspring", which match nicely to human families but aren't that useful for picking up women in bars.

I think the most important question is "Is it ethical to obtain sex by deliberately faking social signals, given what we know of the consequences for both parties of this behaviour?".

This question seems malformed. "Deliberating faking social signals" is vague- but is typically not something that's unethical (Is it unethical to exaggerate?). "What we know of the consequences" is unclear- what's our common knowledge?

A close second would be "Is it ethical to engage in dominance-seeking behaviour in a romantic relationsh

... (read more)

Wanna practice? ;-)

(Wait, you're not one of those "straight" people I keep hearing about, are you?)

2[anonymous]12y
Unfortunately I am one of those infamous people. But if stray I'll promise to get back to you. Even though my narrow-mindedness might have ruled "practice" out of the question (I realize your preference might have done so as well) I'm awfully curious of what this "practice" might have consisted of? (I feel just like child).
3MixedNuts12y
A naive method is simply to use available opportunities to observe the development, or failure to develop, of various types of interest, both in yourself and in others. Now I don't claim an advantage in this area. However, simply practicing a lot with no underlying techniques is often very inefficient, as Raemon points out about drawing. Long-time Less Wrong readers have skills in integrating data, running experiments, luminosity and going outside defaults that can prove extremely useful in figuring out how your interest manifests and what increases or lessens it; not to mention willingness and even eagerness to figure it out rather than throwing a fit if you don't spontaneously emit bluebirds at the required step in the dating instruction manual. Moreover, once you start to recognize what romantic interest feels like and what courting styles spark it in you, you'll have to learn how to apply them in practice, even if they're common enough ones that you can start from cultural templates. You'll get good at this faster with someone who practices LW-style conflict resolution, has repertoried feelings other than "like" and "like-like" and interpersonal relationships other than "friend", "friend with benefits" and "soulmate", and has experience with compromising on nonstandard preferences. An example of this would be exchanging comments with people who are interested in you, and measure your reactions to them directly asking you out, flirting more or less obviously, or leaving the topic entirely off the table and hoping interest develops on its own.

I haven't made the transition in all cases. wedrifid's advice might be useful.

I probably need to figure out where I want the line to be. It's also a complicating factor when I'm thinking "I'd enjoy this person's company if there were less of it and I wasn't feeling pressured".

Obnoxious? WHAT? I gave an example of the kind requested

Downvoted -- yes, obnoxious, because you could have just said "this comment here", but you sought to amuse yourself by providing a link that leads back to itself and thus obfuscating, and when tensions are high, amusing yourself and not communicating clearly sends all the wrong signals that you are disrespecting the other person.

5[anonymous]12y
A contrary view: I'm broadly in favor of people amusing themselves.

Passive aggressive? Obnoxious? WHAT? I gave an example of the kind so that whatever conversation wouldn't be derailed by "Where are your links?" demands.

The implied point seems to be some sort of claim that the type of statement had not been made in the thread up to that point. Rather than asserting that explicitly or even just upvoting lessdazed's remark you made it harder for people to wade through this conversation.

This is the second time you have leveled that charge at me inappropriately in the last few days.

Most humans will generally ... (read more)

You are coming across as a dick. Your earlier "pussy" remark made you come across as a sexist dick.

It just occurred to me now and I don't believe I missed the irony when reading the first time. I don't want to imply I consider this to be particularly offensive (well, except the part where you called me a dick) but do you realize that you called me a dick both earlier (about something unrelated) and also here because I used a word for genitalia as a negative descriptor?

1JoshuaZ12y
Yes, I did realize that. (Although note that I didn't say you are a dick, I said you were coming across as a dick. These aren't the same thing.) Two issues guided that word choice: First, it was an attempt (possibly a poor one) to speak in a language closer to the sort you were using so the point might come across better. Second, in this particular context, the relevant point is that in a highly male environment you were using a negative term for the genitalia of the other gender. That said, neither of these were probably very good arguments. While one could potentially argue that in our society "dick" is more gender neutral as an negative term than "pussy", that argument seems to be more of a rationalization than a genuinely useful argument. I suspect that there may have also been some degree of priming occurring given that I had earlier today had a conversation with a female homo sapiens who expressed disinterest in Less Wrong because it "looked like a sausage-fest" (and also apparently that this thread as well as some of the other relationship related threads were "creepy"). Some amount of Phil Plait's speech was also floating around. But even that is an explanation more than a good reason. So I'll just say that I was aware of what I was doing, made a conscious decision to do so, but in retrospect had poor reasons for doing it.
2lessdazed12y
Given that wedrifid said this less than a day ago: That's priming.
6HughRistik12y
If "pussy" is a sexist slur, isn't "dick", also?
4komponisto12y
That wasn't the point at all, as far as I can tell. The point seemed to be that wedrifid was volunteering to be a representative of the point of view in question (while engaging in some nonverbal humor of the sort that is only possible in online forums). Did you forget to update on the new information that was provided? EDIT: I seem to have missed this.

However, every empirical study that has looked at CRA loans has concluded that they were safer than subprime mortgages that were purely profit driven, and CRA loans accounted for a tiny fraction of total subprime mortgages (107)

...

In November 2009 55% of commercial real estate loans were currently underwater, despite being completely unaffected by the CRA.[114]

...

He noted that approximately 50% of the subprime loans were made by independent mortgage companies that were not regulated by the CRA, and another 25% to 30% came from only partially CRA r

... (read more)
3lessdazed12y
Do you think fault is other than a social construct?

I don't see how the fact that these people do situation-specific things gets you to the conclusion that because PUAs are doing situation-specific things too they must be right.

It doesn't. It just refutes your earlier rhetorical conflation of PUA with alternative medicine on the same grounds.

At this point, I'm rather tired of you continually reframing my positions to stronger positions, which you can then show are fallacies.

I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose (you could just be misunderstanding me, after all), but you've been doing it a lot, and ... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y30

The first thing that comes to mind is a bit of a stretch, but:

10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth." 13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from

... (read more)

That didn't mean that I chose celibacy until the peer-reviewed literature could show me an optimised mate-finding strategy, of course, but it does mean that I don't pretend that guesswork based on my experience is a substitute for proper science.

Guesswork based on your experience isn't supposed to be a substitute for science. It's the part of science that you do when choosing which phenomena you want to test, well before you get to the blinding and peer review.

The flip side is that proper science isn't a substitute for either instrumental rationality or... (read more)

I'd prefer not to discuss this at the ad hominem level.

Me either. I was asking you for a fourth alternative on the presumption that you might have one.

FWIW, I don't consider any of those alternatives somehow bad, nor is my intention to use the classification to score some sort of points. People who fall into category 3 are of particular interest to me, however, because they're people who can potentially be helped by understanding what it is they're doing.

To put it another way, it wasn't a rhetorical question, but one of information. If you fall in ca... (read more)

Rather: redneck is low status in your mind, because it is associated with such low status jobs, associated with the work done by your inferiors, associated with jobs that an MFA will not do, no matter how hungry, jobs that damage your application to elite universities. Rednecks are supposedly racist because such jobs are low status, and "racist" in dialect of your group is merely another word for low status, having no relationship to a person's mode of reasoning from racial characteristics. Examples: "The tea party is racist" "Her

... (read more)
[-][anonymous]12y30

Well, that's one way to pay the rent while you're in cryonic suspension.

How is this a response to anything I said? Do you mean to contend that any given out-of-work MFA at OWS, according to your model of reality, would turn down an outdoor job exclusively or primarily because it would be associated in their mind with the label "redneck"? But then, your last sentence seems to contradict that. They value working in their field, just like anyone else. Maybe they value it too highly, in the face of economic reality. Maybe there are other, additional pressures that are leading their decisions. Maybe they are turning... (read more)

2pedanterrific12y
You clearly understand the reasons why sam's post was irrelevant gibberish. So why did you respond to it?

I see no reason it should be so black and white.

If someone says, "I will have sex with you once every 20 years," that seems to fall closer to permanent given typical sex drives (and life spans) while strictly speaking being temporary, no?

On the other hand, of course, "hang on 10 seconds" is basically nothing like a permanent refusal.

[I]'s downright inhumane to simultaneously demand "You can't have sex with anyone but me" and "You can't have sex with me".

While this seems to be egregiously overstating the case, I think it's an important point made explicit that has thus-far (as far as I can tell) been unaddressed.

Deuteronomy:

22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou s

... (read more)
7thomblake12y
Indeed, in the US the last state was North Carolina in 1993, and even still it tends to be a lesser offense (assault, battery, or spousal abuse). wikipedia. Of course, my wife and I tend to call shenanigans on the concept. Thought experiment: At least in the case of male->female rape, it's easy to accuse someone of rape once they've had sex with you, it's a very serious charge, and courts tend to side with the alleged victim. So someone who didn't want their life ruined (jail time, permanent sex offender registry, etc.) would do well to make certain sure they can establish that consent was given. Various methods would work to some degree - signed documents, video tapes, witnesses, the presence of a government official... As ridiculous as it would seem to get all of those things together for the recording of consent for sex, it so happens we actually do have an institution that incorporates all of those things - marriage. We actually have a tradition that involves getting the entirety of both families together, in front of a government official, with signed government documents, usually on videotape, where both parties agree (often speaking directly to their respective deities) that they will do certain things with each other, traditionally understood to prominently include sex. A bit over the top, but sometimes you have to do crazy things to avoid litigation. Except now, even going through all that is insufficient to establish consent. It's a world gone mad.
5CronoDAS12y
Compared to other crimes, rape is extremely difficult to prove in court.
6thomblake12y
Quick sanity check: According to RAINN (disclosure: citing an organization I've supported), 58% chance of a conviction for rape. A questionable Wikipedia article claims that the conviction rate for crimes in general is "84% in Texas, 82% in California, 72% in New York, 67% in North Carolina, and 59% in Florida." (as of 2000). Thus, it seems plausible that rape is extremely difficult to prove in court.
3Nornagest12y
For clarity, the RAINN stats are rape-specific and the Wikipedia stats are for all crimes, right? Crime-specific conviction rates seem to be hard to find. A 1997 DoJ press release claims 87% conviction rates for all crimes in federal court (a skewed sample, though) and 86% for violent crime, but doesn't break it down further. The situation could plausibly have changed in the last fourteen years due to changes in culture or forensic science. Statistics from the California DoJ (pages 49-50; PDF file) suggest that around 67% of felony arrests (not trials) in the state result in conviction, and that that rate has slowly been increasing since the Seventies (when the number was around 45%).
4Oligopsony12y
Actually, the traditional part of the wedding vows (in America, at least, and I assume other English-speaking countries) referring to sexual obligation - "serve" - faded into disuse well before spousal rape became criminalized, and in any event a key feature of sexual consent is that it can be withdrawn at any time. There are of course enforcement problems which may complicate cases where there's no other physical abuse, but pertaining to my original point, at least, I'd contend that most late moderns would agree that spousal rape is both logically coherent and evil, because it meets the "consent" conception of rape, whereas most earlier peoples would not, operating as they were from a property crime framework.
3homunq12y
There are certainly those who would dispute claims 1 and 3. (And obviously, in doing so, use a broader definition of "easy" which includes cultural norms and foreseeable consequences.) Edit: that goes double for marital rape.
3TheOtherDave12y
To clarify: do you and your wife believe that the presumption of consent that marriage entails is sufficient to overcome any potential evidence of rape, or merely that it is sufficient to raise the bar significantly? If the latter, I agree; if the former, I disagree. Your comment seems to suggest the former, but you may simply be indulging in entertaining hyperbole. Thought experiment: suppose I accuse person X of nonconsensually forcing sex on me, and X shamefacedly admits that they in fact did so, and medical experts testify that I show medical signs of forcible sex with X, and my prior history seems to a jury of my peers inconsistent with having consented to forcible sex, would you generally consider that sufficient evidence to justify the claim that X raped me? Does that evaluation change if X is my husband?
3DoubleReed12y
Well, even if marriage was a contract to say "I want to have sex with you" it's a little ridiculous for it to say "I want to have sex with you whenever you want."
2thomblake12y
Is it? Here I thought that was the point.
2wedrifid12y
What is the intended message of the Deuteronomy quote? It seems to imply that rape implies non-consent. In this case the relevance of the rape is that the betrothed rape victim is excused from punishment for the crime of adultery.
3Oligopsony12y
Right, consent is relevant insofar as it determines whether the maiden is complicit in the harm to her fiance. But it's not a determinant of whether harm was done, or even the severity of it. If you have sex with another man's wife or fiance, you die. If she's not betrothed then the pottery barn rule kicks in and you make restitution to her owner. If there's contested ownership (e.g., if she's your slave but someone else's fiancee) you pay a fine (Leviticus 19:20-22.) In all cases the person whose consentH^H^H^H^H^H injury matters is not that of the woman; it's that of the man who owns her.
8wedrifid12y
That's certainly not the case in the passage quoted here. In fact in no place in the passage is the fiance, husband or father even able to give consent. These particular rules apply even if for some reason the fiance or husband said "go for your life, she's yours for the taking". The only consent that is mentioned at all is the consent of the betrothed damsel, the giving of which will get her killed alongside her lover - it is male consent that does not happen to matter at all. The issues you have with sexism in these collections of religious text seem to be overshadowing what this passage has to say about rape. (And those issues may be valid and important in their own right as independent subjects!)
4Oligopsony12y
You're right, consent was the wrong word to use in that context. I was being sloppy and meant that the men in question were the wronged party.
4wedrifid12y
That does seem likely to be the reason there were such strict laws against adultery. Robin Hanson explores why adultery (and so cuckoldry) is a more significant issue for males.

The fact is that the old adage "Do unto others as they would have them do unto you" is actually quite a good rule when you factor in ideas of consent. It immediately rules out sadomasochism and rape issues.

On the contrary rape is exactly the example I bring up to reject that adage as a moral absurdity.

I don't go and tear a girl's clothes off and do to her just because I'd like it if she tore off my clothes and did to me!

That would be rape. And rape is bad. Therefore following the adage would make me bad.

Why is consent required for sex but not for killing and eating?

2Oligopsony12y
I'd say that since animals (that are plausibly appropriate to eat) don't have long-term goals, it's not a harm to them that they die, while it is a harm to them that they be mistreated while living. But whether or not this is right it's clearly just a post-hoc rationalization of the fact that I/DoubleReed/most people think it's super duper gross.
2Emile12y
If that was really the reason, people would express more outrage and disgust over the idea of factory farming than over the idea of bestiality (I suspect zoophiliacs would also argue that they treat their animals very well and that the animals enjoy it - I don't doubt some enjoy it more than what factory-farmed animals go through). So yes, I think that that, and consent, are post-hoc rationalizations, and are not remotely related to the true reasons we find bestiality super duper gross.

Then again, it occurs to me that the "can't" in the original sentence might refer to a situation that applies more specifically to the subject rather than the object

Yes, I was primed to think in terms of the subject - and the kind of subject that people are inclined to shame. That is, pathetic people. As in, "pathetic people who can't get laid".

To translate into the language of physical impossibility would, I suppose, require observing that humans are not black boxes that can freely do anything within the realms of human possibility... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y30

Isn't it perfectly clear which one MixedNuts means?

If I said something to offend you over the internet, and you said it made you feel like hitting me, I would think it was no big thing, especially if you went on to explicitly clarify that you would never actually hit me. I would not perceive it as a serious threat in any case.

Really? My instincts anticipate a significant negative response if I said I wanted to hit someone around here. On the order of a substantial faux pas not a personal security risk. But to be honest I haven't exactly calibrated that intuition all that much. Because I just don't go around saying I want to hit people.

5TheOtherDave12y
If another data point helps, I basically agree with you... if someone told me that what I'd said made them want to hit me, I'd consider it rude, possibly funny (depending on context), and not significantly changing my estimate that they would actually hit me.

See e.g. John Mayer

FWIW, I have it on good authority that he was a neighborhood bully when he was little.

That would be cool. I'd prefer the Apolitical Conspiracy, or perhaps the Contrarian Conspiracy.

Those are more literally correct, but the acronyms don't work out as ironically.

The problem with this approach is that it requires an initial trustworthy person or group to start the mailing list and preview the first batch of new members.

Well, given that the idea is to create a place where certain norm-violating ideas can be discussed, it seems like the ones with veto power ought to be the ones who have come up with the idea but are reluctant to discuss i... (read more)

9lessdazed12y
"Contrarian Conspiracy for Correcting Politics" "New Association for Apolitically Criticizing Politics" "New Society for Discussing, Apolitically, Politics"
8Bugmaster12y
The problem with setting up such a society is that it's about as secure as a house of cards. If I was a potential attacker, all I'd need to do would be, * Create a new account on Less Wrong (or just use my existing one if I was willing to burn it) * Act really open-minded and gain a lot of karma * Join the Contrarian Conspiracy * Archive all its messages for a few months, then publish them on Slashdot, 4chan, and the National Enquirer In fact, the first three steps aren't even necessary, if you assume that instead of being an outside attacker, I'm an internal member who'd gone rogue. There doesn't seem to be any mechanism in place for stopping a person like that.
1pedanterrific12y
Possible solutions: wear cloaks and masks, i.e. have the membership of the mailing list be composed of anonymized gmail accounts (46233782482@gmail.com). Also, of course, denydenydeny.
4J_Taylor12y
One also could create a social norm of writing under false identities. That is, have several individuals who are each claiming the same Lesswrong identity.
2pedanterrific12y
I don't see why hypothetical conspiratorial mailing list (HCML) identities and LW identities have to be linked at all, really.
2[anonymous]12y
The needed barriers to entry are basically taken care of in who gets invited in the first place. On the list itself I don't actually see that strong a reason to even know which mail address is who, in fact since many people don't really have all that recognisable a style this might work to improve rationality by breaking up existing sympathies and antipathies.
7ahartell12y
I like this idea, but since I have very little karma, I would be a bit sad to see it happen. Could an email list be contrived in such a way that users with lower karma could read the correspondences of the group without having the ability to post messages? If possible, it seems like that would maintain the integrity of discussion while also allowing interested parties to learn new things.
9pedanterrific12y
If you don't have a lot of karma, and the requisite posting history of being nonpartisan, how could the Conspirators trust you not to spread around the Deep Dark Secrets that would give the site a bad reputation? (If I seem to be giving off mixed signals, it's because I'm not sure how I feel about this idea myself yet. I'm having a really hard time imagining what could be somehow so beyond the pale as to be impossible to allude to in public.)
3ahartell12y
Good question. I don't have an answer, but I guess there could be tiers? Like, if a person* has a couple hundred karma, has been active on the site for a while, and has conducted him/herself well then that person could receive low level access. With the concern you brought up it's hard to choose criteria that would make a user trustworthy but that wouldn't warrant just letting them in completely. I guess I would advocate less stringent requirements. Like, nobody with negative karma and to be accepted you need to have been on the site for x amount of time and have been polite/non-inflammatory/thoughtful in all previous discussions. If a person has low karma because they rarely comment, they likely won't post much in the email list anyway. If we need a way to find out if someone's trustworthy, can't we just ask them to raise their right hand? *This hypothetical person happens to be me.
3Nominull12y
To take an attested example, discussion of the beliefs and tactics of the Pick Up Artist (PUA) community was either heavily discouraged or banned, I forget which, because of the unpleasant air it seemed to give to this site.
2Strange712y
Apolitical Conspiracy could be abbreviated as APC, a vehicle useful to well-resourced partisans who want to decide when and where to engage without resorting to sneaking about dressed as civilians.

but the blue strategy aims to maximize the frequency of somewhat positive responses while the red strategy aims to maximize the frequency of highly positive responses.

It's the other way around.

Lowered karma. Rebuke. Deletion of posts. We might have some form of banning. Might want to check the wiki.

5Vladimir_M12y
Also the punishment (mainly in the form of lowered status and tarnished reputation) that would be foisted upon LW as an institution by the broader society if it were to become a welcoming environment for various kinds of views that aren't very respectable.

Also: Being habitually mentioned in the same breath with outrageous positions that one has taken in the past. Having such words applied to one as cause people they are repeatedly applied to to be shunned.

[-][anonymous]12y160

What I'm really displeased about is that we are so casually dismissed as troublemakers, arguing in bad faith or tarred with negative characteristics.

Look at our profiles. Look at our comments. You will find many very active and well received posters who you would otherwise consider an asset to the community. And then consider how massively up voted some comments expressing such sentiments are! There are many more who never voice it but share chunks of this proposed map of reality.

Yes many on LessWrong are knee jerk contrarians, but please consider just how large a fraction of reasonable, polite, intelligent, sceptical LW contributors have basically thrown out certain popular overly optimistic ideas out of their model of the world, because the ideas in question just don't pay rent and and are useful for signalling only. I dare say many, found the departure from some of those ideas more painful and difficult than admitting to themselves that the religion of their childhood was false.

I know I did.

Update accordingly.

3RomanDavis12y
Aren't we already?

There are different degrees of severity. Being perceived as weird in a nerdy way is low-status, but it's nothing compared to being perceived as harboring fundamentally evil views. Most notably, the former sort of low status isn't infectious; you can associate with weird nerdy people without any consequence for the other aspects of your life. Not so when it comes to associating with the latter sort of people.

Why would anyone so disagree? If this topic isn't off-topic and mind-killing, is there any topic that is?

I would say yes. I mean, it's clearly on topic relative the main post, and if instrumental rationality is going to be one of the focuses of the site, then "on topic" for top level posts is necessarily going to be pretty broad.

As for mind-killing, there are certainly topics I think it's harder to hold a productive conversation on.

7steven046112y
I think a comment can be off-topic even though it's on-topic relative to the main post and the main post is itself on-topic. I'm also worried that people are using too broad a definition of "instrumental rationality".

Nope. It's still all a manual process because all the programs I've tried aren't good enough, and don't sufficiently improve my workflow. (You may also notice that my preferred format for references is my own, instead of one of the standards that I have to use when writing for peer-review.)

Great post Luke, I liked the wealth of informations provided and that you're trying to make the topic respectable to LW readers: relationship is an area of our life that is too important to let it in the grasp of superstition and old unfulfilling social scripts.

What I would like to see in the next post is something about partner selection: inside every mode of relationship there's a wide variance of experiences possible depending on the partner... I think a rational approach to romantic life should investigate the topic of selection on this level of granul... (read more)

I never realized how deep Bayes Theorem

It's only 'deep' if you have to dredge it up and out from a pile of bullshit. ;)

Interesting article, and I enjoyed reading it, although I'm not sure how much new material you cover. A lot of this looks familiar, but I'm not sure whether it's from your other articles or from random reading. Could be just from random reading, actually. I've read a lot in this area because relationships and sexuality are so generally mystifying to me. And real-world 'just go out and do it' experience is what seems to help the most, but 'the virtue of scholarship' helps too, so your articles are useful to me.

I'm not sure how much new material you cover.

New to Less Wrong? Almost all of it.

New to the scientific community? Almost none of it.

Those are the kinds of posts I generally try to write.

[-][anonymous]9y20

He had released two drafts that I can't be bothered to find. Maybe lukeprog can find it. I looked for part 2 but couldn't find it.

Or just agree with me: http://lesswrong.com/r/UnrequitedHope-drafts/lw/ln9/meta_list_all_users_posts/

EDIT: There's also this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/70u/rationality_lessons_learned_from_irrational/

About 78% of college students

Unless you mean “78% of college students worldwide”, please specify what country you're talking about.

Maybe I should refer you to this other comment I made on this topic.

Or, to put it in this particular context: I don't go around saying things like that. This is a discussion about relationships and attraction, and the things I say here are (or so I perceive them to be) very relevant to the subject at hand. You've seen me once say something like that, in a place where saying things like that is both appropriate and productive, and you deduce that I always go around saying things like that to random people I've just met before I even know them? I'd be very ... (read more)

3Kindly12y
I apologize. Even if my comment had had a small probability of being helpful, I should have stated it differently, and I did jump to more conclusions than was warranted. I didn't mean to imply a misinterpretation, though. If you did go around saying things like that, the pattern-matching would be the whole problem. If you actually believed something to the effect of "people with IQ less than X are not worth knowing", that might also be an obstacle, but at a later stage of relationship-forming. In any case, that appears to be irrelevant.
1A1987dM12y
You meant to say "despite not being"?
2DaFranker12y
Yes, thanks for catching that. Fixed.

In most countries, there are more women than men, because women live longer. (Some evidence: http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UKDemographics-Age.svg )

Possible additional hypotheses: the reason there are more men born than women is because of selective abortions. If the selection pressure for having males is stronger in rural areas/ among the poor (where economics factors make it substantially better to have sons than daughters), and the poor have a higher mortality rate, then you would expect to see an eveni... (read more)

Well, it's a topic for a whole book, not a brief comment buried deep in a vast old thread. But for some concrete examples, see e.g. the comments I left in this subthread.

5Blueberry12y
So basically, if a guy tries to have a long-term relationship with a girl who's had a lot of partners, he better study Game or there's a good chance she'll get bored, because she's used to very attractive guys? That makes sense; I wouldn't think of that as very controversial. Of course, that ignores that some women actually do also make an effort to work on their long-term relationship skills and find ways to deal with periods where their partners seem less attractive. I didn't see anything about looks in that subthread; does something similar apply to dating someone very good-looking?
5Vladimir_M12y
By "looks" I didn't mean the level of attractiveness, but more generally, all clues available from people's appearance. Clearly, this is going to lead to strife once people start recognizing themselves, or someone they care about, in the criteria under discussion. (This may in fact be due to understandable annoyance on part of someone who represents an actual statistical exception, but again, this makes it no less a barrier to rational discussion.) Re: relationships with women who've had a lot of partners, the problem is that for a typical man, the extreme skew of the male attractiveness distribution and the asymmetry of the male-female mating strategies mean that even with some dedication to studying and practice of game, he'll likely end up in an unfavorable position. But again, talking about this stuff in plainer and more concrete ways is hard to do without crossing the bounds that have repeatedly shown to be a trigger of discourse breakdown on LW.
2Blueberry12y
The obvious question is, what about female partners, or group sex partners with the guy in question? Do they count against the girl? I'm not seeing why the asymmetry means that the guy will end up in an unfavorable position even if he knows how to be attractive enough. Other than the girl finding the guy unattractive, I'm not sure what else you're hinting at. Given that I like girls who have had large numbers of partners, is there anything else I need to know or do or be aware of? Re: looks, are we talking the "blonde = ditzy, glasses = geeky" level of stereotype? Or are you talking about the way someone's mood, shyness, introversion, and so forth can be read from body language? Or something as straightforward as someone wearing a lot of makeup spent a lot of time on her appearance, and thus probably wants attention/cares what people think of her a lot? The only "discourse breakdown" I've seen is the crowd that thinks any attempt to improve dating skills is fake and evil, and I don't really care about them. I think we're past the reflexive "pickup = evil" by now. I'd really like to hear this stuff talked about in plainer and more concrete ways, or at least PM me with a few specifics! One idea: we've had a thread on LW where people post their online dating profiles for feedback. I think it'd be an interesting game to post pictures of people, either ours or other random pictures, and see what kind of guesses we come up with about them based on clues from their appearance.
7Vladimir_M12y
Why would it be "obvious"? Even completely ignoring these questions still leads to useful insight for the majority of cases in practice. To answer your question, we'd need to get into a discussion of the motivational mechanisms of the behaviors you mention, but that is certain to lead to even more controversial questions, which I'd really prefer not to get into. That depends on what exactly you're aiming for. Saying "I like girls who [have the characteristic X]" sounds as if you like such girls for non-serious, shorter-term relationships in which you have the upper hand. Clearly, you shouldn't worry too much if it's really just a throwaway relationship that will soon end one way or another. (Still, you should watch for traits that indicate propensity for troublesome behaviors that can get you into unpleasant situations, or even serious problems, even in the context of such a relationship. What's indicated by sheer partner count in this regard, independent of the mechanism I described earlier, is another can of worms I'd rather not open.) On the other hand, if you're aiming for a committed relationship, a woman's high number of previous partners (which in fact doesn't even have to be extremely high) definitely makes the deck stacked against you. This follows from the basic statistics of the situation, and "if he knows how to be attractive enough" is a can-opener assumption in this context. In fact, the situation has gotten significantly worse on LW in this regard since I started commenting here around two years ago. Back then, it seemed to me like discussions of these topics on LW might result in interesting insight whose worth would be greater than the trouble. However, ever since then, a string of ever worse and more cringe-worthy failures that occurred whenever these topics were opened has convinced me in the opposite. As for the specifics and straight talk, there are plenty of blogs and forums where such things can be discussed ad infinitum. (Though admitted
4Blueberry12y
It was the first thought I had. The association in my mind went something like girl with lots of partners ---> girl is sexually awesome ---> female partners and group sex ---> if someone thinks having multiple partners is bad, is that bad? No, I meant long term. I am incredibly curious about your thoughts in these matters. You hint lots of things but don't spell them out. I disagree with your assertions that LW's gotten worse and is a bad place for these discussions, and I get that you don't want to post them publicly on LW, but can you PM me? I promise to keep them private if you'd like. The ones I've seen either a) take weird conservative positions, b) are filled with bitterness and hatred towards women, c) deteriorate into madonna/whore complexes, slut-shaming, and name calling, without much intelligent discussion or reasoning, or d) seem sane to me, but agree with my viewpoint on things. Besides, I want to know what you think. You're sane, reasonable, intelligent, and have a viewpoint that's very different from mine, but seems like it might have a lot to offer. Please PM me. You're giving me half of thoughts that I haven't seen anywhere else, and can't find on fora elsewhere, and I want the other half! I don't see how this stacks the deck.
2wedrifid12y
Rather than counting things for or against the girl how about we frame it in terms of to what extent these new behaviors (female partners and group sex with you) also fit into the previously mentioned correlation cluster.

I think that category of people are considered low status on average, and thus, not met with much sympathy. Maybe they have a small circle of people enabling their bad habits, but I suspect the strongest force is rationalization.

“person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him.”

"No, I never raped that woman. I did lie to her about certain matters, as a result of which she chose to have sex with me, but she was clearly unreasonable."

It looks like you are trying to soften wedrifid's stated position for them

I endorse lessdazed's interpretation as at least somewhat closer to my position than the caricature you have attributed to me.

It seems likely that what's going on is that you have as an implicit premise in your argument that PUAs are all "good guys" or close enough to all that it doesn't matter, and that PUA skills will mostly only ever be used "for good".

Not even remotely. That position would be the opposite of stupidity.

However if one held such an implicit premise I could see why you saw no value in discussing the relevant ethical issues, since the relevant ethical issues are all dissolved by the assumption that PUAs are good guys.

Have I said I have ... (read more)

I'm going to assume that despite your words you meant "obviously fallacious" to only refer to part of the first paragraph of the comment you are responding to. That would make your argument much stronger.

problem with having the majority of any discussion dominated by 'ethics'.

Obviously fallacious arguments are getting voted up heavily because they defend PUA and attack ethics

Assuming your intuition about why people are voting as they are is correct, saying that something shouldn't dominate is hardly an attack against it. The statement that... (read more)

I don't want to have a mind-killing argument

Then don't just tell us what the moral categories are without explaining how you decided this.

That is precisely the argument (read: flamewar) that I am trying to avoid! The point is I didn't want to get into a detailed discussion of sexual ethics, how wrong rape is, and what constitutes rape. This is something that is emotionally controversial for many people. It's what we might call a "hot-button issue".

While I think physical violence usually adds to the wrongness of a crime, I'd still call bl

... (read more)

FWIW, I know a number of people I might describe as intellectual who would likely agree that deliberately putting you in a situation where having sex with me is the best of a set of bad alternatives with the intention of thereby obtaining sex with you qualifies as rape, and would likely agree that blackmail can be a way of doing that.

But we should not be having this discussion on this forum.

The question is an interesting one to me. At least the aspect that relates to the ethics of blackmail and how the abuse of some kinds of power relates to the ethics of sex.

Firstly - I hadn't read that article yet, thanks. Still making my way through the backlog.

Secondly - I don't think we are in agreement on this. You are claiming that I was making a 1-place argument.

In fact I was pointing out that roissy seems to be under the incorrect impression that his 1-place, curryed algorithm is the algorithm for determining the "sexual worth" of a woman. In my (admittedly brief) time on his site, I didn't see any reference to alternative algorithms for evaluating the sexual worth of women (based, say, on alternative prefer... (read more)

In my mind, "nagging" in this context meant repeating a request such that the other person changed their response to the request rather than be subjected to further pestering, not pulling down a girl's pants time and time again until she stopped saying no and said neither yes nor no.

1wedrifid12y
Yes, nagging and pulling down pants are definitely entirely different things. The latter is more ethically grey while the former is more pathetic.

Surely you mean "the average person could escape the majority of needless wasteful tension if they were just willing to use words ... "

No, I'm sure I wasn't talking about average people, I was talking about people collectively. If I added the word "all" it would be closer to my meaning that if I had added the word "average".

But I guess I was right in my estimation about the intentionality of the signals you were giving, as you're now reinforcing them.

Probably ~40% of pepople are heterosexual, gender-normal men who are most attracted to women who are young and straight.

It seems like you are using weasel words to describe the goal of ~40% of the people on the planet as a "very specific goal".

Let me put it another way. On a website with a strong majority heterosexual male readership, the article fails to mention what I think is the definitive body of knowledge to improve the dating lives of heterosexual men. You then criticize me because, of all people, just under half are heterosexual males, ... (read more)

3pjeby12y
Theists comprise a much larger percentage of the global population than 40%, but that doesn't mean we'd consider a goal like "being closer to God" to be particularly important or worthy of discussion here. Just FYI, some of us hate pro-PUA rants as much as we hate anti-PUA rants. Actually, I hate the pro-PUA rants more, because they do more harm than good. Telling people they're closing their eyes to the truth is not a rational method of persuasion in any environment, and certainly not here. If you learned half as much from PUA as you think you have, you should have learned that if you want to catch fish, then don't think like a fisherman, think like a fish. In this discussion, you are not thinking like a fish.

These are all 'red ink' concerns. The 'black ink' thread is supposed to evaluate beliefs of PUAs without reference to how effective they are at achieving goals.

My initial response to your comment, is, "WTF?"

My second, more polite response, is simply that your suggestion isn't particularly compatible with finding out useful things, since your proposed selection criteria will tend to filter them out before you have anything to evaluate.

So the premise, then, is that the institution of Ethics would come tumbling down if it were not the case that ethicists seemed to have special knowledge that the rest of the populace did not?

Yes.

applies equally well to any academic discipline

Other academic disciplines are tested against reality because they make "is" statements. Philosophy is in a middle ground, I suppose.

Actually, if anything I think I'd be more likely to believe that the actual job security ethicists enjoy tends to decrease their opinions' correlation with reality, as compared to the beliefs about their respective fields of others who will be fired if they do a bad job.

If it was intended to be merely a formal argument, compare:

If prominent mathematicians don't frequently disagree with others about math, they become unemployed.

This group's opinions on the subject are less correlated with reality than most groups'.

I thought you had an overwhelming point there until my second read. Then I realized that the argument would actually be a reasonable argument if the premise wasn't bogus. In fact it would be much stronger than the one about ethicists. If mathematicians did have to constantly disagree with other people about... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y20

That sounds completely impossible to me. Surely X is primarily about what one should do.

For example, if we have the background assumption that Billy is trying to do X, and we note that stabbing 10 people would make him 20% more likely to acheive X, then it is not an unwarranted inferential leap that Billy should stab 10 people. To prohibit anyone from replying that Billy should not stab people for other reasons doesn't prohibit implied ethical recommendations, it just heavily biases them.

If you think I'm wrong, I'd like to see an explanation of how this c

... (read more)

Hi, this comment caused me to vote in this poll, in protest of its validity. I do agree actually that sanctions should be made, preferably norm based ones like lessdazed suggested. The protest is what the poll is clear of exactly. Such a poll is representative of the outliers. Specifically, anyone past the threshold it takes to make a vote. If you conclusions are based on that subset of people, then I have no disagreement.

If so forgive me - I have not seen a PUA in the wild ever mentioning the issue of differentiating targets on the basis of whether or not being picked up would be psychologically healthy for them, so my provisional belief is that they attached no utility or disutility to the matter of whether the pick-up target would remember the experience positively. Am I wrong on that point?

The goalposts have moved again. But my answer would be yes anyway.

Even that weaker position still seems incompatible actually being a utility-maximising agent, since there is prima facie evidence that inducing women to enter into a one-night-stand against their better judgment leads to subsequent distress on the part of the women reasonably often.

That isn't a utility maximising agent regardless of whether it demands your 'proof beyond any doubt' or just the 'until someone proves scientifically'. Utility maximising agents shut up and multiply. They use the subjectively objective probabilities and multiply them by the u... (read more)

In this trifling particular, then, I appear to be wiser than he, because I do not fancy I know what I do not know". - Socrates

I certainly wouldn't say is true either.

Hi.... I haven't read this whole thread, but I know one very important thing that immediately discredited PhilosophyTutor in my view. I strongly feel that the best pua's are not at all about merely extracting something from the woman they interact with. They claim they live by the motto "leave her better than you found her". From my impression of Casanova, the ultimate pua, he lived by that too.

How do they know whether they fulfill this motto well?

Take this into account: a lot of good pua's may fall far short of the ideal amount of rigor, bu

... (read more)

until someone proves beyond any doubt

What about just "until someone proves scientifically"?

It should also mention that judgement about whether something is subject to to Rule 1 interpretation should be particularly suspect. Recursive inclusiveness is implicit. For this reason It is also a charge nearly impossible to defend oneself from directly.

I meant only to give a prototypical example of what people (including myself) do actually say on the subject.

I've said the same.

I'm actually not sure which way the intelligence difference would go

Or which group would have more deviation from its mean.

2wedrifid12y
I applaud you on your sanity. That's probably a more interesting question - and perhaps even harder to filter out from environmental influences.

PUA devotees like to position themselves as gurus with secret knowledge.

For what it is worth the majority are positioned as 'acolytes'.

Regardless of whether dead people can be considered victims or not, it's still really, really upsetting to a lot of living people. Whether it ought to be upsetting is another matter, but it is.

1wedrifid12y
I don't see why not. If we consider the corpses of dead relatives to have reverted to just objects then necrophilarizing means having sex with our stuff. I would still find that somewhat upsetting!

Maybe we should reboot this conversation and start with you telling me what you believe about PUA and why you believe it?

Ok. I'll hang in here for a bit, since you seem sincere.

Here's one belief: PUA literature contains a fairly large number of useful, verifiable, observational predictions about the nonverbal aspects of interactions occurring between men and women while they are becoming acquainted and/or attracted.

Why do I believe this? Because their observational predictions match personal experiences I had prior to encountering the PUA literature. ... (read more)

1PhilosophyTutor12y
The problem with this line of reasoning is that there are people who believe they have relentlessly calibrated their observations against reality using high quality sources of raw observational data and that as a result they have a system that lets them win at Roulette. (Barring high-tech means to track the ball's vector or identifying an unbalanced wheel). Roulette seems to be an apt comparison because based on the figures someone else quoted or linked to earlier about a celebrated PUAist hitting on 10 000 women and getting 300 of them into bed, the odds of a celebrated PUAist getting laid on a single approach even according to their own claims is not far off the odds of correctly predicting exactly which hole a Roulette ball will land in. So when these people say "I tried a new approach where I flip flopped, be-bopped, body rocked, negged, nigged, nugged and nogged, then went for the Dutch Rudder and I believe this worked well" unless they tried this on a really large number of women so that they could detect changes in a base rate of 3% success I really don't think they have any meaningful evidence. Did their success rate go up from 3% to 4% or what, and what are their error bars? What's the base rate for people not using PUA techniques anyway? People other than PUAs are presumably getting laid, so it's got to be non-zero. The closer it is to 3% the less effect PUA techniques are likely to have. I've already heard the response "Look, we don't get just one bit of data as feedback. We PUAs get all sorts of nuanced feedback about what works and does not". If that's so and this feedback is doing some good this should be reflected in your hit rate for getting laid. If picking up women and getting them in to bed is an unfair metric for PUA effectiveness I really think it should be called something other than PUA. My thinking is that you don't have enough data to distinguish whether you are in a world where PUA training has a measurable effect, from a world where P
2pjeby12y
Once again, you are misstating my claims. Notice that nowhere in my post did I say pickup artists get laid, let alone that they get laid more often! Nowhere did I state anything about their predictions of what behavior works to get laid! I even explicitly pointed out that the information I'm most interested in obtaining from PUA literature, has notthing to do with getting laid! So just by talking about the subject of getting laid, you demonstrate a complete failure to address what I actually wrote, vs. what you appear to have imagined I wrote. So, please re-read what I actually wrote and respond only to what I actually wrote, if you'd like me to continue to engage in this discussion.

Ok, I wouldn't have necessarily classed that as 'good scientific evidence' but it seems to be useful Bayesian evidence so we must be looking at it from different angles.

I don't think I would be making an unreasonable assumption if I assumed that an arbitrarily chosen woman in a bar would most likely have a preference for the internal experience of happiness, mental health, continued life, orgasms and so on and hence that conduct likely to bring about those outcomes for her would produce utility and conduct likely to bring about the opposite would produce negative utility.

Knowing that her weights on those things are positive gets me nowhere. What I need to know are their relative strengths, and this seems like an issue ... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y20

Trivial inconvenience to protect against a trivial danger.

I find the scenario very low probability if high impact.

I'd prefer not to discuss this at the ad hominem level.

No ad hominem fallacy present in grandparent.

Discriminating against farmers and the sons of farmers because they will be getting less out of the institution and the institution will be getting less out of them seems perfectly appropriate,

Care to produce a rationale why the institution will get less out of farmers and the sons of farmers, academic qualifications otherwise being equal?

That this is simple snobbery seems obvious, and if you doubted it, the numerous anecdotes of snobbery emanating from thoroughly dysfunctional members of "Occupy Wall Street" should have confirmed it.

and thu

... (read more)

I think your position is going to turn out to be unfalsifiable on the point of whether relationships involving honesty, equality and mutual support actually exist.

Huh? I didn't say those things didn't exist. I said I was not searching for a lack of those things (I even bolded the word "lack" so you wouldn't miss it), and that I don't see why you think that PUA requires such a lack.

No True Scotsman argument

Authentic Man Program and Johnny Soporno are the two schools I'm aware of that are strongly in the honesty and empowerment camps, AFAI... (read more)

1PhilosophyTutor12y
I took a quick look at AMP and Soporno's web sites and I'm more than happy to accept them as non-misogynistic dating advice sources aiming for mutually beneficial relationships. I wasn't previously aware of them but I unconditionally accept them as True Scotsmen. I'm now interested in how useful their advice is, either in instrumental or epistemic terms. Either would be significant, but if there is no hard evidence then the fact that their intentions are in step with those of LW doesn't get them a free pass if they don't have sound methodology behind their claims. I'm aware Eliezer thinks there's a difference between scientific evidence and Bayesian evidence but it's my view that this is because he has a slightly unsophisticated understanding of what science is. My own view is that the sole difference between the two is that science commands you to suspend judgment until the null hypothesis is under p=0.05, at least for the purposes of what is allowed into the scientific canon as provisional fact, and Bayesians are more comfortable making bets with greater degrees of uncertainty. Regardless, if your goals are genuinely instrumental you very much want to figure out what parts of the effect are due to placebo effects and what parts are due to real effects, so you can maximise your beneficial outcomes with a minimum of effort. If PUA is effective to some extent but solely due to placebo effects then it only merits a tiny footnote in a rationalist approach to relationships. If it has effects beyond placebo effects then and only then is there something interesting for rationalists to look at.
3pjeby12y
There is a word for the problem that results from this way of thinking about instrumental advice. It's called "akrasia". ;-) Again, if you could get people to do things without taking into consideration the various quirks and design flaws of the human brain (from our perspective), then self-help books would be little more than to-do lists. In general, when I see somebody worrying about placebo effects in instrumental fields affected by motivation, I tend to assume that they are either: 1. Inhumanly successful and akrasia-free at all their chosen goals, (not bloody likely), 2. Not actually interested in the goal being discussed, having already solved it to their satisfaction (ala skinny people accusing fat people of lacking willpower), or 3. Very interested in the goal, but not actually doing anything about it, and thus very much in need of a reason to discount their lack of action by pointing to the lack of "scientifically" validated advice as their excuse for why they're not doing that much. Perhaps you can suggest a fourth alternative? ;-)

As it stands, there are three meanings of "Jew" - the stereotype, the religion, and the ethnicity.

I would say there is at least one more. Jewishness is as much a cultural association as a religious one, and there are plenty of people who identify as Jewish culturally, but not religiously.

I suspect that the difference between messaging behavior and the minimum age setting is related to the fact that those settings are publicly available. That adds a signaling component to the game, and for 48-year-old straight males I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be the dominant one: I don't have any actual data here, but it seems likely that a middle-aged man setting the age of consent as his threshold sends a clear "dirty old man" signal that a 32yo threshold wouldn't. Not a signal that a hypothetical dirty old man wants to send, ... (read more)

[-][anonymous]12y20

I'm pretty sure Chris Rock didn't invent the pattern

I didn't intend to imply otherwise. The question isn't what he did or did not invent. The question is, what is the everyday, common meaning. I brought up Chris Rock to illustrate what it would be like if dlthomas's analysis of "redneck" applied to "nigga". Everybody would all the time be talking the way that Chris Rock talks in his monolog without any negative consequences since they would not be implying anything about blacks in general. But clearly, that is not the case. Furthermo... (read more)

You're missing four letters. Call the strength of your preferences for X and Y A and B, and call your partner's preferences for X and Y C and D. (This assumes that you and your partner both agree on your happiness measurements.)

I agree there's a choice among available actions which maximizes AX+BY, and that there's another choice that maximizes CX+DY. What I think is questionable is ascribing meaning to (A+C)X+(B+D)Y.

Notice there are an infinite number of A,B pairs that output the same action, and an infinite number of C,D pairs that output the same actio... (read more)

A better version might be to have strong rules about no head autopsy when the next of kin so request or when the person is signed up for some form of preservation such as cryonics or plasiticization.

I would require that explicit consent be granted by the patient in a will or, if the will does not mention the subject, then require the consent from the next of kin as opposed to requiring the next of kin to actively request that no head-destruction be done. Because cops aren't going to make it easy for next of kin to hinder their investigation by making su... (read more)

I'd support this more confidently if I believed that the legal mechanisms distinguishing "enabling suicide" from "murder" would align well with my own intuitions about the distinction.

I agree with you that consent is not simple... indeed, I said as much in the first place.

That said, I do believe that situations can arise where the expected value to a person of their death (1) is greater than the expected value of the other alternatives available to them. If I understood you, you disagree that such situations can arise, and therefore you believe that in all cases where a person thinks they're in such a situation they are necessarily mistaken -- either they're wrong about the facts, or they have the wrong values, or both -- and therefore ... (read more)

The meaning of this 'consent' term seems to be drifting closer and closer to 'whatever it takes for the action to be considered morally right'.

his neck turning red in the process as he works outdoors

Ahhh! That's where the name redneck comes from. I hadn't even thought about it enough to wonder.

Does the male model have any women he's spontaneously interested in, or is it all women who choose him more than him especially wanting them?

I don't know the details of enough households to be sure of the housework distribution. I can think of two where the men definitely weren't doing it. One ended in divorce (mostly for other reasons), the other seems to be stable. One household where I think it's pretty equal, but I'm not sure. Statistics back up the idea that husbands typically do less housework than their wives.

5sam034512y
He is heterosexual. I don't know if his relationships started with him hitting on the girl or the girl hitting on him. I have seen quite a few hot chicks hit on him and he brushes them off, or pretends not to notice. With his girlfriends he acts excessively needy, and respectful, as if they are very important to him. I don't act that needy, even though women never hit on me, and are frequently hitting on him. I don't see how he can actually be needy. Girls think he is candy when they first see him. But he acts needy, leaning in to his girlfriend rather than his girlfriend leaning into him. Needy body language, even though girls somehow appear whenever he is around.

I was going to raise a similar objection, then observed that his claim was that people who believe this are typically "lefty types," not that "lefty types" typically believe this. The former might even be true, for all I know. (Though I can't quite see why anyone should care.)

I know exactly one person who has expressed an opinion even remotely like this; he is an ethnically Chinese American who identified as a Republican for most of his life but changed that identification in the last decade or so. I wouldn't call him a "lefty typ... (read more)

It was my understanding that most divorce proceedings encourage separation early on in the process.

2Prismattic12y
In some states, it is mandatory to have a period of separation prior to divorce, and having sex with your spouse will reset the timer.

In that case, we seem to actually disagree about the properties of saying "You can't have sex with anyone right this minute, including me."

Yes, that's probably right. It seems it has to come down to either:

  1. You don't think not having sex constitutes misery/suffering, or
  2. You don't think withholding something that would alleviate misery/suffering from a loved one is cruel / lacking compassion
2soreff12y
I'd think that the expected duration of the refusal matters. From my point of view, a refusal for an evening is (barring extraordinary circumstances) a fairly minor restriction. From my point of view a refusal for a decade would count as cruel. (barring extraordinary circumstances I'd expect it to terminate most marriages).
2pedanterrific12y
Or maybe 3. He thinks that having sex when one doesn't want to constitutes misery/suffering that outweighs the misery/suffering of not having sex.

It would seem a little cruel to just come out with it apropos of nothing. But there are certainly times where saying it wouldn't be at all cruel. Like, for example, if your monogamous partner asks you "Should I have sex with you or go have sex with Alice?"

5TheOtherDave12y
I certainly had in mind a situation more like the latter than the former. That said... if my husband said that to me, say, while he was dropping me off at work, I would probably (after some confusion) ask him if he thought it likely that I would have had sex with someone else that minute had he not mentioned that. If he said he did, my primary emotional reaction would be concerned bewilderment... it would imply that we were suffering from a relationship disconnect the scope of which I needed much more data to reliably estimate. If he said he didn't, I would probably smile and say "Well, all right then" and go to work, and my primary emotional reaction would be amused puzzlement. In neither case would I be inclined to think of it as cruel. (In the second case, I suppose I would ultimately file it as "it was probably funnier in his head")
3wedrifid12y
Having an overwhelmingly low prior for your husband saying something like this for reasons that are cruel certainly helps!

And need not be limited to sexuality; handling of finances is a common source of strife and may not be any business of many in the audience, for instance.

Understood, but your understanding of "inhumane" is still very different from mine. "You can't have sex with anyone right this minute, including me" doesn't strike me as an inhumane thing to say to one's partner.

You miss the point thomblake is making entirely. In counterfactual in question it is not rape. Because there is consent - formal, legal and certified consent. For it to be rape that consent would need to be withdrawn - which is what thomblake said you do.

You can say people don't have the right to enter into a contract where they have given consent to have sex until they decide they don't want to continue in the contract. You can argue that such contracts are bad and should be illegal (like they are now). But if someone is, in fact, operating within such a ... (read more)

If I've understood you correctly, you consider "You can't have sex with me right now" a subset of "You can't have sex with me" for purposes of that statement... yes?

If so, your understanding of "inhumane" is very different from mine.

Agreed. Though the bottleneck here is finding a way to stipulate that sort of thing in a way that is agreeable to say in front of your grandmother.

I don't know that the entire contract needs to be public. If you are worried about someone playing fast and loose with that, you probably shouldn't be marrying them. If you still want to, you could recite the SHA hash or something.

4thomblake12y
Brilliant! I am totally using this for private contracts in the future. Is that done already?
2DoubleReed12y
I think I'll prefer ECDSA for my documents. Elliptic Curves are so much sexier.
2JoachimSchipper12y
There is already basically no punishment for breaking the contract that is marriage; just social pressure. Do you really think that keeping the agreement secret is desirable? (Although I guess that "... till death do us part. Also, we will engage in 4b8cfc115af495125c084f26210ab91158f1ed34 if either spouse wants to" may work. Note that there are downsides to using a hash, like your friends trying out a few (in)appropriate words... but this is not a discussion of appropriate cryptographic techniques.)

Because it is rape?

That's precisely begging the question.

I mean, you do realize they will almost always get a divorce if they file rape charges...

Yes, I should hope so. Though I think the better solution is to say "oops, I guess I didn't really mean to be in that arrangement" and obtain a divorce as soon as possible.

Though clearly there are different ideas at play here about just what the arrangement entailed in the first place.

3DoubleReed12y
Let me put it this way. You're saying that "it doesn't make any sense to be in that position." But that is exactly and precisely the situation we're describing. So it makes me think you either misunderstand the issue or simply lack imagination about real world events. Edit: Clearly relationships are going to be different for different people. I personally would never expect my spouse to always give in to my desires or the other way around. And the idea that I would be legally obligated to is strange to me.
2dlthomas12y
Probably the correct solution is to discuss with a potential spouse precisely what you are each agreeing to.

No no no. You can't do that. We're talking about consent. If you are going to say "I just want to make you happy, so even though I'm not in the mood I'll still have sex with you," then that is consent. You are consenting. We are not talking about that. If that is your thought process, then that is still consent.

What we're talking about is if you say "No, I don't want to have sex with you right now," and your wife has sex with you anyway.

3Vaniver12y
Note that the premise here requires elaboration. thomblake may be stating that he would not say "No, I don't want to have sex with you right now," and instead would say something like "having sex right now would cause me to be late for work" or "having sex right now would be painful for me" (notice the lack of a 'no'). His wife could either retract the request or not, and if she doesn't he has precommitted to accepting whatever consequences come from having sex with her then. That is, the root question is whether or not there should be a spousal sex veto, and it sounds like thomblake thinks that, for his relationship at least, there shouldn't be.

After all, what is "I would really like it if someone did X to me" if not giving consent?

Not quite. There is a difference between "I would really like it if someone did X to me" and "I might dislike it if someone did X to me without my consent but would like to be in the state where people may do X to me without my consent". The latter is included here. The benefit isn't necessarily the act itself.

This seems to make the other person less 'rapist' and more 'bungee jump assistant' (the person whose job it is to push you of

... (read more)

(also, even with consent you can still have statutory rape, though it's debatable whether that's a "natural" subcategory of rape)

If I'm not mistaken statutory rape is based on the age of consent. The law is claiming that the people do not have the right to consent to such acts, much in the same way that children many times do not understand what is happening in cases of pedophilia.

Specific laws and ages of consent have problems and flaws, of course. But when you say "even with consent," that is what people are disagreeing about. Do they really have consent?

6wedrifid12y
Not True consent. Because we want to call the sex 'rape' and rape is forcing someone to have sex with you without consent. So what they did when they said "I want you baby. #$%# me now." then tore of the clothes of the 'rapist' and forced them down on the bed couldn't have been consent. Consent in this context must mean "whatever it takes for me to not call the act rape". Repeated disclaimer: This isn't a claim about morality or what punishment is appropriate for any given sexual act. It's about word use!

Yeah, the currently established rules of consent are really for the purposes of safety - to prevent tragedies borne out of miscommunication, to prevent plausible excuses from either party.

It's an excellent rule, but it's not the absolutely fundamental point, the goal unto itself-- the real goal is to prevent the physical and emotional suffering associated with undesired violations of one's person.

In a hypothetical world where true preferences could be determined and established without a hint of potential miscommunication or the possibility of denial-after... (read more)

Yea, the major issues I've seen are when consent is ambiguous, like pedophilia/bestiality, but also with long term damage. After all, if something is permanent, then they may not want it later. It is impossible to give "eternal consent" as far as I've seen and that is where there are serious moral ambiguities. Like if someone asked you to kill him. That has a permanent effect of a hopefully temporary state of mind.

I don't understand your point on rape.

The relevant comparison would be vandalism or theft.

Is the idea of consent really that modern?

Yes.

If you have statistics about sibling incest being prominent to "rednecks" in a significantly higher degree than other populations, let me know. If not, I don't approve of unsubstantiated stereotyping.

9pedanterrific12y
That's absolutely hilarious. I suppose you have a file of peer-reviewed studies showing that racism, sexism and homophobia are significantly more prominent in redneck populations, then? Oh wait, you can't, because "redneck" isn't an acknowledged sociological distinction. It's a stereotype. Anyone who gestures toward vaguely "redneck ideas" should not be surprised when incest comes up. The fact that you did not know this makes me assume that you, unlike me, are not from the Appalachians.
8ArisKatsaris12y
I've heard the jokes about cousin incest, and even made an initial reply to your pre-edited post, saying that cousin marriage didn't count as incest for most of Western civilization and still doesn't count as such in many non-Western countries -- when you edited your post to refer specifically to sibling marriage, I deleted that answer which no longer applied. You can click my name and see I'm from Athens, Greece, no need to assume anything. Wikipedia tells me that "redneck" is a term that refers to rural southern whites and then got connotations of all-around bigotry. But if you want data about these topics, here's the map that shows South was the last to repeal antimiscegenetion laws, here are maps for estimated same-sex marriage opposition, here is which states didn't ratify the Equal Rights Amendment To forestall objections, I understand these maps don't specifically condemn redneck population. "redneck" wasn't my own choice of words, but I didn't feel the need to object to its correlation with established Southern trends. I've not been able to locate incest statistics by state though.

I think the comment is being upvoted in the context of it being a translation of the claim, not in the context of it being an assertion that the claim is true.

I dislike conclusions about human behavior based on statistics unless the conclusion comes with information about the amount and distribution of the tendency.

It's obvious that some people like exoticism in their sexual partners, though perhaps they still want some of the subtle similarities like distance between the eyes.

It wouldn't surprise me if there's a pull in both directions, with a minority preferring partners who look different from themselves.

2TheOtherDave12y
For my own part, I've noticed that most of the people I know prefer that their sexual partners be far more dissimilar to them than I do, at least when it comes to secondary sexual characteristics. Of course, I realize that's not what anyone means when they talk about partners looking or being similar. But it suggests that the issue is more complicated than a simple similarity metric would take into account.

There is a famous essay on this I couldn't find

Do you mean Paul Graham's What you can't say?

7lessdazed12y
Yes. To gwern (verb) it, to reconstruct it from quotes according to the Pareto principle:
3Prismattic12y
Add "politically correct" to the set of possible x and y and we are in agreement. This was the point of my original comment on the matter.

I do not. If things are thought false, its critics say so. Otherwise, its critics suppress it socially. If some idea is socially suppressed, I infer its critics fear it is true.

This may be evidence that the critics fear that, but it isn't always the case. Sometimes they just think that there can be damage if people are mislead by the falsehoods for example.

[-][anonymous]12y20

In my experience dressing differently, not necessarily trying to abide to specific subculture dress code often attract a lot, maybe not (always) because you appeal to some special preference but rather you highlight yourself, thus increasing the total number responses (good and bad).

[-][anonymous]12y20

Similarly, you may have the best success in dating if you appeal very strongly to some people, even if this makes you less appealing to most people — that is, if you adopt a niche marketing strategy in the dating world.

What will it be today? Tuxedo, Quarterback or Clown outfit . . . Hmm tough choice.

[-][anonymous]12y20

In one's professional life, it may be better to have broad appeal. But in dating, the goal is to find people who find you extremely attractive. The goth guy sacrifices his mean attractiveness to increase his attractiveness variance (and thus the frequency of very positive responses), and this works well for him in the dating scene.

In an analysis of online dating profiles and message rates, OkTrends concluded that "a woman gets a better response from men as men become less consistent in their opinions of her." Their advice to women is: "Take

... (read more)

I think that was a part of the point.

The present value of my expected future income stream from normal labor, plus my current estimated net worth is what I use when I do these calculations for myself as a business owner considering highly risky investments.

For most people with decent social capital (almost anyone middle class in a rich country), the minimum base number in typical situations should be something >200kUS$ even for those near bankruptcy.

Obviously, this does not cover non-typical situations involving extremely important time-sensitive opportunities requiring more cash than you can raise on short notice (such as the classic life-saving medical treatment required).

..Well, two is not enough to hide the discussion. Nor is the number of downvotes on the great-great-grandparent. But this just makes me more confused. It greatly reduces the chance that the downvoters (or all of them except one) mainly object to the topic of discussion. Yet when I look at my two comments they still seem accurate and on-topic. (Technically I should say the second one is accurate if you accept one object-level moral claim, which I think my interlocutor does.)

OK, why have this comment and the next one I made garnered this many downvotes?

[-][anonymous]12y10

.

8wedrifid12y
It's a lighthearted cultural reference (which does have something of a useful moral embedded within). A common form is "I'm strong willed, you're stubborn and she's pig headed". It is just a comment about the same thing being labelled differently depending on how closely we associate with it. It tends to be approximately neutral to the subject matter.

Presumably, the amount a reasonable person would be willing to pay me for concealing a certain piece of information would reflect their confidence in my ability to reliably conceal that information. It isn't guaranteed, of course, but we routinely sign contracts for delivery of service in nonguaranteed scenarios.

I have no problem if a business that is balance-sheet insolvent argues that it is still cash-flow solvent and should therefore be allowed to operate in hope of achieving balance-sheet solvency.

I actually have no problem with a business operating in a perpetual state of balance sheet insolvency. If the creditors are happy and getting the payments they desire, the employees are happy and the owners are happy then there just isn't any issue. No expectation of, desire for or hope that that particular number to be positive is required. It just isn't an impo... (read more)

Well, sure. I was taking issue specifically with Konkvistador's post, above, and the claim:

nagging too much will make people so desperate to be left alone they may well agree to sex

I have a very hard time imagining this working... I can't see why this would be rewarded with sex. Sex with a woman might happen in spite of nagging, not because of it.

This is NOT me saying "evil PUAs do this", it's "orthogonal to your points about PUA, you have made a simple factual claim backed by personal incredulity which is, in fact, false".

you should not follow the advice given in the above post, in the case that you have a very specific goal with respect to a relatively small group of women. ... It is not particularly surprising that the advice given in the post only works for most people with most goals.

This goes too far. The vast majority of men are heterosexual, gender-normal, and the vast majority of those are most attracted to women who are not:

  • post-menopause/50+
  • ugly
  • lesbian (i.e. not attracted to men)

Pickup is popular because it tells men how to attract precisely those women who they desire most.

PUA is a large field with many different subfields and schools of thought. There are those who aim for one-night-stands at bars, and those who aim to find the particular soulmate they've been searching for. There is PUA writing from the perspective of homosexuals, both men and women, teens, older folks, and all sorts of different perspectives.

If you think there is just one set of techniques in the field and they are only applicable to a small subset of humanity, then you're not very familiar with PUA and should stop making blanket assertions about the field.

2usedToPost12y
The definition of "pick up artist" from wikipedia is: So if we are indeed referring to the same thing by the phrase, then I think that I am correct in saying that There have been small offshoots into "girl game" and some guys focus more on older women, and I am explicitly not denying that there are results and facts there. But the core of the concept, the VAST majority of the field testing and online material is about quickly seducing "women who are relatively young, culturally-western, hetero- or bi- sexual and relatively attractive"

In order for Ethicists to be comparable, wouldn't they need to discover new ethics?

Sure, and they do. One out of the three major subfields of ethics is "applied ethics", which simply analyzes actual or potential circumstances using their expertise in ethics. The space for that is probably as big as the space for mathematical proofs.

[-][anonymous]12y10

I don't.

I didn't mean to misrepresent your position or the debate so far. I was just trying to communicate how I'm seeing the debate. Hope you didn't take my question the wrong way! :)

3thomblake12y
Not at all (I think).

If we can exclude those cases where one partner or another honestly and explicitly expresses a free, informed and rational preference to be dominated then mostly yes.

How prevalent do you think those cases are?

I guess you just lost track of the context and thought I'd said something I hadn't. Are we back on the same page together now?

Did what you wrote agree with the parenthetical paragraph I wrote explaining my interpretation? If so, we're on the same page.

a high probability of regretting a one night stand if it does not turn into an ongoing, happ

... (read more)

I believe a "discuss" (or synonym thereof) was omitted between "a" and "moral."

Deceiving others to obtain advantage over them is prima facie unethical in many spheres of life

Irrelevant. Is all fair in love?

I feel that dominance-seeking in romantic relationships is a profound betrayal of trust in a sphere where your moral obligations to behave well are most compelling.

Are you claiming that all romantic relationships which include the domination of one party by the other betray trust? I think we have differing definitions of dominance or good behavior.

Can you point me

Sure! First statement:

Bob behaved unethically in getting

... (read more)
1CuSithBell12y
See, ah, I think I'm against advocating deliberately unethical behavior / defection on LW. Prude. :P
6Vaniver12y
The question is what ethical standard to use. Whether or not exaggeration is unfair in matters of romance has not been established, and I would argue that exaggeration has a far more entrenched position than radical honesty. That is, I would argue that not exaggerating your desirability as a mate is defection, rather than cooperation, and defection of the lose-lose variety rather than the win-lose variety.

If you find an RCT addressing the immune system, tell me about it.

None spring to mind. The closest I have explored to the subject is the effectiveness of supplementing with bovine colostrum on adult humans. The limited effectiveness I saw there can't exactly be considered a surprise of the same order.

Note to self: don't have sex with any of wedrifid's stuff.

Feel free to buy it off me if you are really want to. It's a territorial thing, not a moral judgement! :P

I'll try to do it briefly, but it will be a bit tight. Let's see how we go.

Bayes' Theorem is part of the scientific toolbox. Pick up a first year statistics textbook and it will be in there, although not always under that name (look for "conditional probability" or similar constructs). Most of scientific methodology is about ensuring that you do your Bayesian updating right, by correctly establishing the base rate and the probability of your observations given the null hypothesis. (Scientists don't state their P(A), but they certainly have an inf... (read more)

5lessdazed12y
That doesn't mean it doesn't underlie the entire structure. As an analogy, to get from New York to Miami, one must generally go south. But instructions on how to get there will be a hodgepodge of walk north out of the building, west to the car, drive due east, then turn south...the plane takes off headed east...and turns south...etc. Showing that going south is one of several ways to turn while walking doesn't mean its no conceptually different than north for getting fro New York to Miami. Similarly: If one is paid to do plumbing, then there is no difference between being a good plumber and a "good Bayesian", and in that sense there is no difference between being a "good Bayesian" and a "good scientist". In the sense in which it is intended, there is a difference between being a "good Bayesian" and a "good scientist". To continue the analogy, if one must go from Ramsey to JFK airport across the Tappan Zee Bridge, one's route will be on a convoluted path to a bridge that's in a monstrously inconvenient location. It was built there - at great additional expense as that is where the river is widest - to be just outside of the NY/NJ Port Authority's jurisdiction. The best route from Ramsey to Miami may be that way, but that accommodates human failings, and is not the direct route. Likewise for every movement that is made in a direction not as the crow flies. Bayesian laws are the standard by which the crow flies, against which it makes sense to compare the inferior standards that better suit our personal and organizational deficiencies. Well, yes and no. It's adequately suited for the accumulation of not-false beliefs, but it both could be better instrumentally designed for humans and is not the bedrock of thinking by which anything works. The thing that is essential to the method you described, "Scientists...have an informal sense of what P(A) is likely to be and are more inclined to question a conclusion if it is unlikely than if it is likely". What abstraction des
6pjeby12y
Thank you for saying my point better than I was able to.
1PhilosophyTutor12y
I don't think scientists think about it much. That's more the sort of thing philosophers of science think about. The smarter scientists do what is essentially Bayesian updating, although very few of them would actually put a number on their prior and calculate their posterior based on a surprising p value. They just know that it takes a lot of very good evidence to overturn a well-established theory, and not so much evidence to establish a new claim consistent with the existing scientific knowledge. Stating your hypothesis beforehand and specifying exactly what will and will not count as evidence before you collect your data is a very good way of minimising the effect of your own biases, but naughty scientists can and do take the opportunity to cook the experiment by strategically choosing what will count as evidence. Still, overall it's better than letting scientists pore over the entrails of their experimental results and make up a hypothesis after the fact. If a great new hypothesis comes out of the data then you have do to your legwork and do a whole new experiment to test the new hypothesis, and that's how it should be. If the effect is real it will keep. The universe won't change on you. It's not a binary distinction. Rather, if you're unaware of the ways that people's P(B) estimates can be wildly inaccurate and think that your naive P(B) estimates are likely to be accurate then you can update into all sorts of stupid and factually false beliefs even if you're an otherwise perfect Bayesian. The people who think that John Edward can talk to dead people might well be perfect Bayesians who just haven't checked to see what the probability is that John Edward could produce the effects he produces in a world where he can't talk to dead people. If you think the things he does are improbable then it's technically correct to update to a greater belief in the hypothesis that he can channel dead people. It's only if you know that his results are exactly what you'd exp
5lessdazed12y
Exactly, it's a cost and a deviation from ideal thinking to minimize the influence of scientists who receive no training in debiasing. So not "If you're doing Bayes right it's the same as doing science", where "science" is an imperfect human construct designed to accommodate the more biased of scientists. These are costs. It's important, and in some contexts cheap, to know why and how things work instead of saying "I'll ignore that since enough replication always solves such problems," when one doesn't know in which cases one is doing nearly pointless extra work and in which one isn't doing enough replication. It's an obviously sub-optimal solution along the lines of "thinking isn't important; assume infinite resources." It's praise through faint damnation of the laws of logic that they don't prevent one from shooting one's own foot off. Handcuffs are even better at that task, but they are less useful for figuring out what is true. Exactly, so in "some of the LW groupthink holds that you can do a valid Bayesian update in the absence of a rigorously established base rate," they are right, and "updating is no better than guesswork in the absence of a rigorously obtained P(B)," is not always true, such as when the following condition doesn't apply, and it doesn't here: What do you think this site is for? People are reading and sharing research papers about biases in their free time. One could likewise criticize jet fuel for being inappropriate for an old fashioned coal powered locomotive. Yes, jet fuel will explode a train...this is not a flaw of jet fuel, and it does not mean that the coal-train is better at transporting things. That's not the claim in question. In any case, there are better ways to think about this subject than with null hypotheses. Those are social constructs focusing (decently) on optimizing preventing belief in untrue things, rather than determining what's most likely true, here false beliefs have relatively less cost than in most of science

We've hit over 800 comments. Is it time for a new thread?

We've hit over 800 comments. Is it time for a new thread?

Maybe even one with a new topic? ;)

Honest question: why was this downvoted?

6Zack_M_Davis12y
(I downvoted because I saw the comment as decreasing the thread's signal-to-noise ratio: as Nick noted, the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine doesn't archive private pages or emails, and is therefore not relevant.)

In context, I interpreted pjeby to be saying that anecdotes counted as evidence which should lead a Bayesian rationalist to believe the truth of PUA claims. If that was not their intention I got them totally wrong.

However if I interpreted them correctly they were indeed applying Bayes incorrectly, since we should expect a base rate of PUA-affirming anecdotes even if PUA techniques are placebos, and even in the total absence of any real effects whatsoever. It's not evidence until the rate of observation exceeds the base rate of false claims we should expect... (read more)

Your last two sentences imply that opinions have a truth value.

I only intended that in the sense that someone's opinion may be based on a misconception. If someone in fact enjoys eating cheese, and thinks the moon is made of cheese, I'll tend to just call his opinion that he would enjoy eating a piece of the moon "wrong".

Therefore, I suspect that agreeing on the facts alone rarely solves the problem.

Disagreeing on facts is often sufficient to cause a problem.

The only approach is to try to understand the similarities and differences in th

... (read more)
1christina12y
Certainly. As I said in my first post, you can have objections to a fact stated if you believe it is incorrect. This is also true. Whether two people disagree only on the facts or only on preferences, the same amount of trouble can be had. Also if people disagree on both. This is itself an opinion, so I cannot assign a truth value to it. The assignment of importance can only be done if preferences exist. For example, a preference may exist to gain benefit from a certain fact, but not necessarily to satisfy the preference of another person. Given such a preference, it would not, of course, be important to know what the other person's preferences are. On the other hand, if a person wanted to satisfy another person's preferences (or to go against them), then it would be very important. Are you saying that you generally prefer to discover facts about the world over facts about the preferences of other people, or that you think the statement you made is itself some fact about the world? If it is the first, then I assume you have more knowledge of your preferences than I do. If it is the second, then I think I have to disagree.
1lessdazed12y
Practically speaking, I don't think it ((ETA for clarity) doing the thing we are talking about, knowing others' preferences) is important to achieve the sort of goals humans generally want to achieve. If I'm trading you ice cream for flour, what we really need to nail down is that the ice cream has been in the freezer and not out in the sun, the flour is from wheat and isn't dirt or cocaine, it's not soaked in water etc. Then, we can negotiate a trade without knowing each other's preferences. In contrast, if we only know each other's preferences, we won't get very far. I will use the word "rectangle" (which in my language would refer to what you call "ice cream") and offer you melted ice cream, etc. Not logically so - there are possible minds whose only desire is to only know the other person's opinions. I meant it as an assertion of what's generally true in human interactions. Knowing the other person's preferences is far less often necessary than knowing other facts, it's never sufficient for a realistic human scenario I can think of. So as I intended it "less important" applies in a stronger sense than "I disapprove" since compared to the other type of knowledge those facts are less often necessary and less often sufficient.
3christina12y
Okay. You are telling me something about your preferences then. And why is that? Why are those facts more important than, say, that the ice cream is bubblegum-flavored or blue-colored or sweetened with aspartame or made from coconut milk? Knowing the temperature of the ice cream or the composition of the flour is important only in the sense that there can be human preferences in this direction. Your example is not about people negotiating without knowing each other's preferences. Your example is about people negotiating with a few assumptions of the other person's preferences. Here is an example of people negotiating without knowing the other person's preferences: Person A: Would you like some flour? Person B: No. Would you like ice cream? Person A: No. I have some fruit fly eggs here... Person B: Not interested. Would you like a computer? Person A: Why, yes. What do you have here? Never mind--I won't buy anything over ten years old. True. If we only know the other person's preferences but not any relevant facts for achieving them, we cannot expect a mutually satisfying interaction. However, if we know the relevant facts for achieving various preferences, but not which of those preferences the other person has, the same is true. True, but not what I'm discussing. I am discussing how to satisfy both people's preferences in an interaction between two people. Since you state this is not a logical assertion but generally true, I assume you mean to say that it is true in the world we live in but would not have to be true in all possible worlds. However, what I am saying is that this statement does not have a truth value in any logically possible world since it does not specify the preference the importance relates to. Using the word important in this way is like leaving off the 'if' condition in an 'if'-'then' statement, but not leaving out the if as well. The 'then' condition has a truth value by itself, but the 'if'-'then' statement can only be evaluated if b
4lessdazed12y
Should be read as "Practically speaking, I don't think it (doing the thing we are talking about, knowing others' preferences) is important to achieve the sort of goals humans generally want to achieve." English permitted me to exclude that clause and have the same wording as a phrase that conveys the exact opposite of my point. Sorry. I can imagine your confusion reading that and seeing me follow it with an example that illustrates a point opposite of how you read that. But no, I am not saying anything about my preferences, but am describing a relationship between what people want and the world, the relationship is that in general knowing about preferences doesn't help people achieve their goals, but knowing about states of the world does. But I don't need to know them if you do and we share knowledge about states of the world. A very, very hazy idea of others' preferences is sufficient, so improved knowledge beyond that isn't too useful. Alternatively, with no idea of them, we can still trade by saying what we want and giving a preference ranking rather than trying to guess what the other wants. I did not mean it is always true in this universe but not like that in other universes. Instead I meant it is almost always true in this universe. If you are in a situation in this world, such as a financial one or one in which you disagree over a joint action to take, it will almost always be better to get a unit of relevant information about consequences of actions than a unit of relevant information about the other person's preferences, particularly if you can communicate half-decently or better. Also, for random genies or whatever with random amounts of information about each other and the world, they will each usually be better able to achieve their goals by knowing more about the world. This depends heavily on an intuitive comparison of what "random relevant" information of a certain quantity looks like. That might not be intelligible, more likely a formal treat
1christina12y
Upvoted for clarifying this point. This changes my interpretation of this sentence considerably, so perhaps I can now address your intended meaning. This statement does have a truth value (which I believe to be false). I disagree that knowing another human's preferences is not important to achieving most of their goals (ie. their preferences). Since you make a weaker statement below (that they only need to vaguely know the other's preferences), I assume you intend this statement to mean something more along the lines of needing very little preference information to achieve preferences than needing no preference information to achieve preferences (and it is probably not common for humans to have zero initial information about all relevant preferences anyway). I disagree. If I want to buy something from you, I benefit from knowing the minimum amount of money you will sell it for. This is a preference that applies specifically to you. Indeed, other people may require more or less money than you would. It is, therefore, optimal for me to know specifically where the lower end of your preference range is. Knowing other facts about the world, such as what money looks like or how to use it, would not, by themselves, resolve this situation. Likewise, if you wish to sell me something, you must know how much money I am willing to pay for it. You must also know whether I am willing to pay for it at all. If I were trading with someone, I might not be inclined to believe that they would always tell me the minimum they are willing to accept for something. Nor would I typically divulge such information about myself to them. Sure, you can trade by just asking someone what they want, but if they say they want your item for free, that's not going to help if you want them to pay. By the lack of truth value, I meant that it was not clarified what preference the word important referred to. If the preference referred to is explained, then the expanded sentence has a truth value. Perhap

It depends on what is meant by "debt" and "net value", and as those words are usually used, it is false.

If I borrow money to buy a house, the house being security for the loan, then I am "in debt" by the ordinary use of those words -- I owe money to someone -- yet if my net worth includes the house, it should still be positive (if the lender was prudent). If I borrow money, secured only against my expectation of future income, then again assuming a prudent lender, the present expected value of that future income will exceed th... (read more)

The more usual word for someone whose net worth is negative, measured by the whole of their debts and assets, is "bankrupt".

To be precise, it's "insolvent." "Bankrupt" means that a particular kind of legal decision has been made about how the assets and liabilities of the insolvent party will be handled.

Also, there's the issue of one of the more spectacular and shameless rhetorical scams of the modern age, in which certain kinds of insolvency get to be described as "illiquidity," whereupon such insolvent parties get to claim a blank check on the rest of us to fix their problem.

2wedrifid12y
To be more precise it is "balance sheet insolvency". "Insolvent" also commonly refers to the inability to pay debts when they fall due ("cash flow insolvency'). Grrr. Yes. I am not a fan! I'd be even more averse to the idea when the blank check was coming from me.
3Vladimir_M12y
Frankly, I think this "cash flow insolvency" stuff is already in the territory of self-serving obscurantism. If you are balance-sheet solvent, you can always pay debts when they fall due by selling your assets or borrowing money against them. I don't see any good reason why such a simple, clear-cut, and bullshit-free notion as "insolvency" should be complicated and obscured this way. (Of course, here I assume that the goal is to arrive at an accurate understanding of reality, not to master the present language of finance and various related areas of economics, which has a lot of such self-serving obscurantism built in, often quite intentionally. I certainly agree that if one wants to speak this language like an insider, one should be careful to make such distinctions.)
5wedrifid12y
I'm with you on keeping things simple and free of bullshit but I've got to say in this case it is the cash flow insolvency that is the core of the matter. Insolvency, if it is to be described in a simple one liner, is "is the inability of a person - an individual or a corporation - to pay all their debts as and when they fall due." Having negative net worth just isn't a big deal so long as you can keep paying the payments on your loans, keep buying the stuff you need to run your business and keep paying the employees. In fact large business often merrily operate that way and everybody is happy. It becomes a problem when they can't make the payments they are obliged to make - then they may be forced into liquidation (or bankruptcy depending on the naming convention in the jurisdiction.)
2wedrifid12y
That's not the word either. Obviously simple 'debt' isn't the word: someone with a million dollars in cash who owes his mate ten bucks for the meal the other night. But 'bankrupt' means a different thing again. If you have a $1m mortgage on a house and the property prices have fallen then the value of your assets may well have fallen below that needed to cover your debt but you still aren't bankrupt. At least, not yet and not while you can keep up the payments. Unless your lawyers and accountants recommend it as an option. I would have guessed the word for what Hugh was referring to would be "net debt" but that is a bit off too (since it doesn't take into account long term assets, just liquid assets). Just plain "deficit net worth" is the simplest description I know of but it seems to be something that deserves a word of its own. Anyone know of one?
4Craig_Heldreth12y
It is slang but the convention is "underwater".

I don't think there is any connection between affirmative action and the recent "financial crises". If you do, you may have been mindkilled by your dislike of affirmative action. Maybe this idea sounded ridiculous at first, but you flinched away from betraying an ally, and now you actually believe it?

The Orthodox Jewish community I grew up in didn't do this... we mostly ignored the Jewish stereotypes in the larger culture altogether. But the queer community I attached myself to as a late adolescent did have something like this.

I'm glad you're now seeing what I said. It makes useful discussion much easier.

I share your belief that such an anticipation of relief might be triggered by contemplating suicide. That has certainly been my experience, at least.

I infer (though not very confidently) that you believe such anticipation is a more powerful motivator than various other feelings such people have that cause them to make unreliable decisions in other contexts. If you do in fact believe that, then yes, we disagree.

I'd assign a high probability (about 80%) that a random person consenting to being sacrificed would not do so if they knew more, thought faster, and were more the person they wished they were.

6Vaniver12y
But clearly the person they wished they were is someone who has been sacrificed!
4soreff12y
A relationships thread on a rationality site has become a discussion of human sacrifice? :-)
1Vaniver12y
We're anticipating the post where he talks about compromise.
2wedrifid12y
So the objection, if based off this prediction, would be one of paternalism? ie. You think you know better about what they 'really' want than they do? (Not that I'm saying you don't.)

How would you defend it?

If I chose to defend such a position, I'd defend it by arguing it's more dangerous to indirectly encourage the physically-stronger group to exert violence on the physically-weaker group than vice-versa. The words "on average" to be inserted as appropriate in the preceding sentence.

Still, I'd rather discourage violence altogether.