wedrifid comments on Rational Romantic Relationships, Part 1: Relationship Styles and Attraction Basics - Less Wrong

48 Post author: lukeprog 05 November 2011 11:06AM

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Comment author: [deleted] 16 November 2011 03:49:04PM *  3 points [-]

I agree that finding the optimal course of action for humans dosen't mean much if it dosen't include ethics. But humans in order to do that often construct and reason within systems that don't include ethics in their optimization criteria.

There is a sometimes subtle but important difference between thinking and and considering "this is the optimal course of action optimizing for X and only X" and discussing it and between saying "you obviously should be optimizing for X and only X."

I argue that this is former is sometimes a useful tool for the latter, because it allows one to survey how possible action space differs taking away or adding axiom to your goals. It is impossible to think about what people who might have such axioms do, or how dangerous or benign to your goals the development of such goals seeking systems might be. You need to in essence know the opportunity costs of many of your axioms and how you will measure up either in a game theoretic sense (because you may find yourself in a conflict with such an agent and need to asses it capabilities and strategic options) or in a evolutionary sense (where you wish to understand how much fitness your values have in the set of all possible values and how much you need to be concerned with evolution messing up your long term plans).

In short I think that: generally It is not unethical to think about how a specific hypothetical unethical mind would think. It may indeed perhaps be risky for some marginal cases, but also very potentially rewarding in expected utility.

One can say that while this is theoretically fine but in practice actually quite risky in people with their poor quality minds. But let me point out that people are generally biased against stabbing 10 people and similar unpleasant courses of action. One can perhaps say that a substantial minority isn't, and using self-styled ethical agents cognitive capacity to emulate thinking of (in their judgement) unethical agents and sharing that knowledge willy-nilly with others will lead to unethical agents having lower enough costs and greater enough efficiency that it cancels out or overwhelms the gains of the "ethical agents".

This however seems to lead towards a generalize argument against all rationality and sharing of knowledge, because all of it involves "morally constrained" agents potentially sharing the fruits of their cognitive work with less constrained agents who then out compete them in the struggle to order the universe into certain states. I maintain this is a meaningless fear unless there is good evidence that sharing particular knowledge (say schematics for a nuclear weapon or death ray) or rationality enhancing techniques will cause more harm than good one can rely on more people being biased against doing harmful things than not and thus using the knowledge for non-harmful purposes. But this is a pretty selected group. I would argue the potential for abuse among the readers of this forum is much lower than average. Also how in the world are we supposed to be concerned about nuclear weapons or death rays if we don't have any good ideas if they are even possible? Can you ethically strongly condemn the construction of non-functioning death ray? Is it worth invading a country to stop the construction of a non-functioning death ray?

And note that at this point I'm already basically blowing the risks way out of proportion because quite honestly the disutility from a misused death ray is orders of magnitude larger than anything that can arise from what amounts to some unusually practical tips on improving one's social life.

Comment author: thomblake 16 November 2011 03:55:09PM *  0 points [-]

But humans in order to do that often construct and reason within systems that don't include ethics in their optimization criteria.

How can something not include "ethics" in its "optimization criteria"? Do you just mean that you're looking at a being with a utility function that does not include the putative human universals?

ETA: Confusion notwithstanding, I generally agree with the parent.

EDIT: (responding to edits)

This however seems to lead towards a generalize argument against all rationality and sharing of knowledge, because all of it involves "morally constrained" agents potentially sharing the fruits of their cognitive work with less constrained agents who then out compete them in the struggle to order the universe into certain states.

I actually wasn't thinking anything along those lines.

people are generally biased against stabbing 10 people and similar unpleasant courses of action

Sure, but people do unhealthy / bad things all the time, and are biased in favor of many of them. I'm not supposing that someone might "use our power for evil" or something like that. Rather, I think we should include our best information.

A discussion of how best to ingest antifreeze should not go by without someone mentioning that it's terribly unhealthy to ingest antifreeze, in case a reader didn't know that. Antifreeze is very tasty and very deadly, and children will drink a whole bottle if they don't know any better.

Comment author: wedrifid 16 November 2011 04:02:44PM *  3 points [-]

Ethics is a whole different thing than putative human universals. Very few things that I would assert as ethics would I claim to be human universals. "Normative human essentials" might fit in that context. (By way of illustration, we all likely consider 'Rape Bad' as an essential ethical value but I certainly wouldn't say that's a universal human thing. Just that the ethics of those who don't think Rape Is Bad suck!)

Comment author: [deleted] 16 November 2011 04:09:31PM 3 points [-]

Different ethical systems are possible to implement even on "normal" human hardware (which is far from the set of all humans!). We have ample evidence in favour of this hypothesis. I think Westerners in particular seem especially apt to forget to think of this when convenient.

Comment author: wedrifid 16 November 2011 04:12:50PM 1 point [-]

Different ethical systems are possible to implement even on "normal" human hardware (which is far from the set of all humans!).

I think I agree with what you are saying but I can't be sure. Could you clarify it for me a tad (seems like a word is missing or something.)

I think Westerners in particular seem especially apt to forget to think of this when convenient.

Westerners certainly seem to forget this type of thing. Do others really not so much?

Comment author: [deleted] 16 November 2011 04:47:43PM *  4 points [-]

I think I agree with what you are saying but I can't be sure. Could you clarify it for me a tad (seems like a word is missing or something.)

Human can and do value different things. Sometimes even when they start out valuing the same things, different experiences/cricumstances lead them to systematize this into different reasonably similarly consistent ethical systems.

Westerners certainly seem to forget this type of thing. Do others really not so much?

Modern Westerners often identify their values as being the product of reason, which must be universal. While this isn't exactly rare, it is I think less pronounced in most human cultures throughout history. I think a more common explanation to "they just haven't sat down and thought about stuff and seen we are right yet" is "they are wicked" (have different values). Which obviously has its own failure modes, just not this particular one.

Comment author: Emile 16 November 2011 05:03:39PM 2 points [-]

It would be interesting to trace the relationship between the idea of universal moral value, and the idea of universal religion. Moldbug argues that the latter pretty much spawned the former (that's probably a rough approximation), though I don't trust his scholarship on the history of ideas that much. I don't know to what extent the ancient Greeks and Romans and Chinese and Arabs considered their values to be universal (though apparently Romans legal scholars had the concept of "natural law" which they got from the Greeks which seems to map pretty closely to that idea, independently of Christianity and related universal religions).

Comment author: wedrifid 16 November 2011 04:54:40PM 1 point [-]

Thankyou. And yes, I wholeheartedly agree!

Comment author: TheOtherDave 16 November 2011 04:12:27PM 1 point [-]

I suspect you meant "I certainly wouldn't say"... confirm?

Comment author: wedrifid 16 November 2011 04:20:18PM 0 points [-]

Confirm.

Comment author: thomblake 16 November 2011 04:13:07PM 0 points [-]

That's not very helpful to me.

Ethics can arguably be reduced to "what is my utility function?" and "how can I best optimize for it?" So for a being not to include ethics in its optimization criteria, I'm confused what that would mean. I had guessed Konkvistador was referring to some sort of putative human universals.

I'm still not sure what you mean when you say their ethics suck, or what criteria you use when alleging something as ethics.

Comment author: wedrifid 16 November 2011 04:19:38PM 3 points [-]

That's not very helpful to me.

Ethics aren't about putative human universals. I'm honestly not sure how to most effectively explain that since I can't see a good reason why putative human universals came up at all!

I had guessed Konkvistador was referring to some sort of putative human universals.

Cooperative tribal norms seems more plausible. Somebody thinking their ethics are human universals requires that they, well, are totally confused about what is universal about humans.

Comment author: thomblake 16 November 2011 04:25:12PM -1 points [-]

Somebody thinking their ethics are human universals requires that they, well, are totally confused about what is universal about humans.

Not at all. Many prominent ethicists and anthropologists and doctors agree that there are human universals. And any particular fact about a being has ethical implications.

For example, humans value continued survival. There are exceptions and caveats, but this is something that occurs in all peoples and amongst nearly all of the population for most of their lives (that last bit you can just about get a priori). Also, drinking antifreeze will kill a person. Thus, "one should not drink antifreeze without a damn good reason" is a human universal.

Comment author: lessdazed 16 November 2011 04:35:07PM *  0 points [-]

prominent ethicists

If these people don't frequently disagree with others about ethics, they become unemployed.

This group's opinions on the subject are less correlated with reality than most groups'.

ETA: I have no evidence for this outside of some of their outlandish positions, the reasons for which I have some guesses for but have not looked into, and this is basically a rhetorical argument.

Comment author: thomblake 16 November 2011 04:54:12PM 1 point [-]

Actually, if anything I think I'd be more likely to believe that the actual job security ethicists enjoy tends to decrease their opinions' correlation with reality, as compared to the beliefs about their respective fields of others who will be fired if they do a bad job.

Comment author: thomblake 16 November 2011 04:43:05PM *  0 points [-]

If these people don't frequently disagree with others about ethics, they become unemployed.

I don't believe this, and am not aware of any evidence that it's the case.

If it was intended to be merely a formal argument, compare:

If prominent mathematicians don't frequently disagree with others about math, they become unemployed.

This group's opinions on the subject are less correlated with reality than most groups'.

ETA: Note that many prominent ethicists are tenured, and so don't get fired for anything short of overt crime.

Comment author: wedrifid 16 November 2011 04:53:10PM 1 point [-]

If it was intended to be merely a formal argument, compare:

If prominent mathematicians don't frequently disagree with others about math, they become unemployed.

This group's opinions on the subject are less correlated with reality than most groups'.

I thought you had an overwhelming point there until my second read. Then I realized that the argument would actually be a reasonable argument if the premise wasn't bogus. In fact it would be much stronger than the one about ethicists. If mathematicians did have to constantly disagree with other people about maths it would be far better to ask an intelligent amateur about maths than a mathemtician.

You can't use an analogy to an argument which uses a false premise that would support a false conclusion as a reason why arguments of that form don't work!

Comment author: thomblake 16 November 2011 04:56:28PM 0 points [-]

If mathematicians did have to constantly disagree with other people about maths it would be far better to ask an intelligent amateur about maths than a mathemtician.

The best reason I could come up with why someone would think ethicists need to disagree with each other to keep their jobs, is that they need to "publish or perish". But that applies equally well to other academic fields, like mathematics. If it's not true of mathematicians, then I'm left with no reason to think it's true of ethicists.

Comment author: wedrifid 16 November 2011 04:37:36PM *  0 points [-]

Which reality was it that the ethicists were not correlated with again? Oh, right, making factual claims about universals of human behavior. I don't disbelieve you.

Comment author: wedrifid 16 November 2011 04:31:07PM 0 points [-]

Somebody thinking their ethics are human universals requires that they, well, are totally confused about what is universal about humans.

Not at all. Many prominent ethicists and anthropologists and doctors agree that there are human universals. And any particular fact about a being has ethical implications.

This does not refute!

Comment author: thomblake 16 November 2011 04:32:46PM *  -1 points [-]

This does not refute!

No duh. Though it does suggest.

Comment author: wedrifid 16 November 2011 04:34:10PM *  0 points [-]

No duh.

Was the "Not at all." some sort of obscure sarcasm?

EDIT: At time of this comment the quote was entirety of parent - although I would have replied something along those lines anyway I suppose.

Comment author: thomblake 16 November 2011 08:19:02PM 0 points [-]

Was the "Not at all." some sort of obscure sarcasm?

No. I was disagreeing with your point, and then offering supporting evidence. You took one piece of my evidence and noted that it does not itself constitute a refutation. I don't know how it is even helpful to point this out; if I thought that piece of evidence constituted a refutation, I would not have needed to say anything else. Also, most arguments do not contain or constitute refutations.

Comment author: DoubleReed 16 November 2011 04:26:06PM 0 points [-]

What would be an example of a "Normative human essential"?

Comment author: [deleted] 16 November 2011 04:37:11PM *  0 points [-]

Killing young children is bad.

Comment author: thomblake 16 November 2011 04:31:54PM 0 points [-]

My guess is you wanted another example?

Comment author: DoubleReed 16 November 2011 04:51:05PM -1 points [-]

Yea, Konkvistador supplied well.