komponisto comments on Helpless Individuals - Less Wrong

42 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 30 March 2009 11:10AM

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Comment author: komponisto 29 November 2010 08:10:44PM *  1 point [-]

Is IQ really the factor that you want to highlight here? I would guess that 90+% of people with 140+ IQ are incapable of writing music that I find compelling.

As you know, P(A|B) != P(B|A). It's not that most high-IQ folks are capable of writing interesting music, but rather that almost no non-high-IQ folks are. (It may be useful to recall what I mean by IQ, which isn't necessarily what people immediately think of when they hear the term, but is what I believe they should think of.)

This should make sense when you consider that music is ultimately generated from the composer's stream-of-consciousness; and the higher one's IQ, the more interesting one's stream-of-consciousness tends to be. (This is almost tautological given my conception of IQ.)

My statement was nonvacuous; as far as I can tell there are people who judge works of art based on criteria other than subjective aesthetic response.

To a large degree, this impression probably exists due to communication difficulties, in particular a vocabulary far too impoverished to adequately reflect the complexity of aesthetic value.

Many (not all, but a nontrivial subset) of the people you're talking about, I would venture, will have conceded more than necessary when they agree that they're using criteria other than "subjective aesthetic response" to judge the value of a work.

(EDIT: I am led to suspect this because you contrasted "subjective aesthetic response" not with, say, the number of people who say they like it, but rather with "technical intricacy".)

[Have you found contemporary composers to whom you've had as strong a positive aesthetic response as Bach or Brahms?] Yes, of course!

Here too, my question was not vacuous; there are people who I know who would answer in the negative.

The "of course" here was meant to suggest not that your question was vacuous, but rather that you were perhaps a bit overly timid in inferring my answer previously. :-)

Will respond when I have some more time.

Looking forward to it.

Comment author: wedrifid 30 November 2010 01:04:14AM 2 points [-]

This should make sense when you consider that music is ultimately generated from the composer's stream-of-consciousness; and the higher one's IQ, the more interesting one's stream-of-consciousness tends to be. (This is almost tautological given my conception of IQ.)

The only thing that is a tautalogical result of having a high IQ is the ability to achieve good results on IQ tests.

I agree with respect to music, high IQ and stream of consciousness and all practical expectations. Just not the redefinition of IQ. Make up a new name for what IQ tests should measure - or just use 'intelligence'.

Comment author: komponisto 30 November 2010 02:23:57AM *  0 points [-]

(1) I said "almost".

(2) Is "cancer" the ability to get positive results on cancer tests?

Comment author: wedrifid 30 November 2010 04:11:33AM *  1 point [-]

(2) Is "cancer" the ability to get positive results on cancer tests?

No. If humans adopted a naming convention for the purposes of suiting your analogy then "CQ" could be.

Comment author: komponisto 01 December 2010 05:12:35AM 0 points [-]

I could continue the semantic argument ("would it be a CQ test or a cancer test?"), but instead I'll just skip to the real reason I use the term "IQ", which is because it's shorter than "intelligence", and I don't consider "the ability to achieve good results on IQ tests" to be an interesting or important enough concept to deserve exclusive rights to the term.

Comment author: multifoliaterose 03 December 2010 06:14:27AM 1 point [-]

There are a couple of potential issues with your usage:

  1. The ability to achieve good results on IQ tests is correlated with various figures of interest. See the references that Carl Shulman gives here. As such, IQ does have a functional and useful technical meaning and assigning it a new meaning can be confusing.

  2. Different people may have different notions of "the underlying trait that IQ tests are supposed to be measuring." In particular, there's a serious possibility of perhaps unknowingly taking one's own mental architecture (including aesthetic preferences) to define the direction (if not magnitude) in mind-space of this trait on account of generalizing from one example.

The use of "intelligence" stands to suffer from (2) though not (1). I've found it most fruitful to maintain a positivistic attitude toward intelligence as a concept unless I'm in conversation with somebody who I know attaches the same connotations to the term that I do.

Comment author: multifoliaterose 03 December 2010 06:25:19AM 0 points [-]

(My other comment not withstanding; I agree that what IQ tests measure is of limited interest and usefulness; the issue is just that it's not so clear how to do better.)