komponisto comments on Helpless Individuals - Less Wrong

42 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 30 March 2009 11:10AM

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Comment author: MichaelVassar 03 December 2010 04:23:10AM 7 points [-]

Is it your contention that modern musicians write Clasical minuets and Baroque fugues which are in some cases better than the best of the older works that are still listened to, but that no-one cares because much of the value of those works is in their role in a canon?

I could easily believe that in those cases, but I simply don't believe it in the case of Opera. The Opera cannon is just not very large. Some people have heard the whole thing and only like a few dozen operas. It doesn't seem likely that there isn't demand among such people for higher quality new material in old styles, so if no new material is becoming popular then the un-met demand makes me think that contemporary music students are failing to produce work that this audience actually values due to now knowing how to replicate the merits of older compositions.

It should really be pretty easy to do a controlled experiment with a naive population to see how common it is for modern artists to be able to impress an audience as much as their 18th and 19th century precursors did.

I'm seriously interested in someone performing some experiments on this subject. It seems to me that it would provide an extremely practically important measurement of the quality of university education in fields inaccessible to outsiders, but I don't expect to be able to attract funding for such research because it sounds impractical at the face of it.

I guess that my major reason for holding the contrary position was largely because modern musicians and composers, more than painters and authors, are the results of university education and I fairly strongly suspect university education of destorying artistic ability and distracting artists with intellectual games that simply lack the merits of the fields that the academic subjects are derived from. I suspect this in math as much as in music, and I think Von Neumann agreed with me, as this quote suggests.

"As a mathematical discipline travels far from its empirical source, or still more, if it is a second or third generation only indirectly inspired by ideas coming from ‘reality’, it is beset with very grave dangers. It becomes more and more purely aestheticizing, more and more purely l’art pour l’art. This need not be bad, if the field is surrounded by correlated subjects, which still have closer empirical connections, or if the discipline is under the influence of men with an exceptionally well-developed taste. But there is a grave danger that the subject will develop along the line of least resistance, that the stream, so far from its source, will separate into a multitude of insignificant branches, and that the discipline will become a disorganized mass of details and complexities. In other words, at a great distance from its empirical source, or after much ‘abstract’ inbreeding, a mathematical subject is in danger of degeneration."

Comment author: SilasBarta 03 December 2010 07:44:35PM 2 points [-]

I'm seriously interested in someone performing some experiments on this subject.

Is the Joshua Bell experiment the kind of thing you had in mind? If so, it pretty conclusively confirms your suspicions.

Fame feeds on fame, status on status. Which is why it's all the more important to constantly check that a field hasn't lost its moorings.

Comment author: komponisto 03 December 2010 07:55:42PM *  2 points [-]

Is the Joshua Bell experiment the kind of thing you had in mind? If so, it pretty conclusively confirms your suspicions.

Not really, because Joshua Bell was playing mostly (maybe even exclusively) old music in that experiment, if I recall correctly.

Vassar's suspicion was that people nowadays don't know how to write in old styles well enough to be indistinguishable from old composers.

Edit: but just to go along with it for a minute, do you really think Bell's status is the result of a random process? Maybe with respect to other "great" violinists, yes, but certainly not with respect to the average person, or even the average professional violinist.

Comment author: SilasBarta 03 December 2010 08:14:22PM *  2 points [-]

Not really, because Joshua Bell was playing mostly (maybe even exclusively) old music in that experiment, if I recall correctly.

Right, it proves the (arguably) stronger result that even the old music, with its canon status, can't appeal to the uninitiated. Impressing the indoctrinated is not impressive. The hard part is to impress the unindoctrinated.

But just to go along with it for a minute, do you really think Bell's status is the result of a random process?

Of course not, just as I can't make my friends laugh by generating random utterances. But that doesn't mean that the average person is somehow deficient for not laughing at our inside jokes -- or that I can go on denying that it's an inside joke.

Comment author: komponisto 03 December 2010 08:27:18PM *  1 point [-]

But that doesn't mean that the average person is somehow deficient for not laughing at our inside jokes -- or that I can go on denying that it's an inside joke.

Here, the analogous situation would be an "average person" denying the joke was funny because they weren't in on it, despite the fact that they saw a bunch of people laughing hysterically at it.

(...a bunch of people who were willing to welcome them into their group if they caught up on the group's history, so they would be able to get the jokes!)

Comment author: SilasBarta 03 December 2010 09:02:57PM *  2 points [-]

But people don't claim that their inside jokes are the highest form of culture and that others are somehow deficient for not wanting to join in on it.

I understand that if you invest some effort E into appreciating something, you'll appreciate it. The fact that I appreciate it for some (potentially huge) E does not somehow justify the effort -- you can say that about anything.

The appropriate comparison would be "what ways of amusing myself for that level of personal investment are the best"? And given these opportunity cost considerations, it's quite understandable why the utter indifference of the public is a strike against the field.