Vladimir_Nesov comments on A Defense of Naive Metaethics - Less Wrong

8 Post author: Will_Sawin 09 June 2011 05:46PM

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Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 19 June 2011 11:31:30PM *  0 points [-]

I believe "this fact is true" if and only if there is an encoding in my brain of this fact.

What if it's encoded outside your brain, in a calculator for example, while your brain only knows that calculator shows indication "28" on display iff the fact is true? Or, say, I know that my computer contains a copy of "Understand" by Ted Chiang, even though I don't remember its complete text. Finally, some parts of my brain don't know what other parts of my brain know. The brain doesn't hold a privileged position with respect of where the data must be encoded to be referred, it can as easily point elsewhere.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 20 June 2011 05:22:58AM 1 point [-]

Well if I see the screen then there's an encoding of "28" in my brain. Not of the reason why 28 is true, but at least that the answer is "28".

You believe that "the computer contains a copy of Understand", not "the computer contains a book with the following text: [text of Understand]".

Obviously, on the level of detail in which the notion of "belief" starts breaking down, the notion of "belief" starts breaking down.

But still, it remains; When we say that I know a fact, the statement of my fact is encoded in my brain. Not the referent, not an argument for that statement, just: a statement.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 22 June 2011 10:21:04PM 0 points [-]

but at least that the answer is "28".

Yet you might not know the question. "28" only certifies that the question makes a true statement.

You believe that "the computer contains a copy of Understand", not "the computer contains a book with the following text: [text of Understand]".

Exactly. You don't know [text of Understand], yet you can reason about it, and use it in your designs. You can copy it elsewhere, and you'll know that it's the same thing somewhere else, all without having an explicit or any definition of the text, only diverse intuitions describing its various aspects and tools for performing operations on it. You can get an md5 sum of the text, for example, and make a decision depending on its value, and you can rely on the fact that this is an md5 sum of exactly the text of "Understand" and nothing else, even though you don't know what the text of "Understand" is.

But still, it remains; When we say that I know a fact, the statement of my fact is encoded in my brain. Not the referent, not an argument for that statement, just: a statement.

This sort of deep wisdom needs to be the enemy (it strikes me often enough). Acts as curiosity-stopper, covering the difficulty in understanding things more accurately. (What's "just a statement"?)

Comment author: Will_Sawin 23 June 2011 01:42:51AM 1 point [-]

This sort of deep wisdom needs to be the enemy (it strikes me often enough). Acts as curiosity-stopper, covering the difficulty in understanding things more accurately. (What's "just a statement"?)

In certain AI designs, this problem is trivial. In humans, this problem is not simple.

The complexities of the human version of this problem do not have relevance to anything in this overarching discussion (that I am aware of).

Comment author: Peterdjones 22 June 2011 11:04:29PM *  0 points [-]

But still, it remains; When we say that I know a fact, the statement of my fact is encoded in my brain. Not the referent, not an argument for that statement, just: a statemen

So you say. Many would say that you need the argument (proof, justification, evidence) for a true belief for it to qualify as knowledge.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 23 June 2011 01:33:37AM 1 point [-]

Obviously, this doesn't prevent me from saying that I know something without an argument.

Comment author: Peterdjones 23 June 2011 02:30:48AM 0 points [-]

You can say that you are the Queen of Sheba.

It remains the case that knowledge is not lucky guessing, so an argument, evidence or some other justification is required.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 23 June 2011 02:47:21AM 1 point [-]

Yes, but this is completely and totally irrelevant to the point I was making, that:

I will profess that a statement, X, is true, if and only if "X" is encoded in a certain manner in my brain.

Yet "X is true" does not mean "X is encoded in this manner in my brain."