RolfAndreassen comments on Quantum Physics, CERN and Hawking radiation - Less Wrong

1 Post author: MatthewBaker 16 June 2011 08:44PM

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Comment author: RolfAndreassen 18 June 2011 08:22:36PM 2 points [-]

Assuming that charge and parity quanta involve moving parts internally, then they would both reverse automatically if time is reversed - producing what appears to be CPT symmetry as a result.

No. Start with a left-handed neutrino. Reverse T under your assumption. It is now a right-handed antineutrino going the other way; reverse space as well to restore the original direction, if you like, although the argument does not depend on this. Because CP is broken, right-handed antineutrinos do not behave exactly as left-handed neutrinos do. Therefore you can tell how many times T has been reversed. You don't get the full symmetry back except by applying CP another time.

Comment author: timtyler 18 June 2011 11:15:35PM *  0 points [-]

Assuming that charge and parity quanta involve moving parts internally, then they would both reverse automatically if time is reversed - producing what appears to be CPT symmetry as a result.

No. Start with a left-handed neutrino. Reverse T under your assumption. It is now a right-handed antineutrino going the other way;

Yes.

reverse space as well to restore the original direction, if you like, although the argument does not depend on this.

A parity flip, I presume you mean.

Because CP is broken, right-handed antineutrinos do not behave exactly as left-handed neutrinos do.

That is indeed true.

Therefore you can tell how many times T has been reversed.

Well you only said you reversed it once - and then you flipped P, but not C, leaving things in a bit of a mess - and then you tried to make out the mess was something to do with me.

Reversing T an odd number of times changes everything. Reversing it an even number of times changes nothing. You can't distinguish between reversing T different numbers of times beyond that - under the hypothesis that reversing T automatically reverses C and P.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 19 June 2011 08:45:52PM 0 points [-]

Ok, leave the parity flip out of it. If this is true:

Reversing T an odd number of times changes everything.

then you do not have T symmetry. Done.

Comment author: timtyler 19 June 2011 09:13:26PM *  0 points [-]

It makes time run backwards. Those in charge may not think that this is such a null-op.

If you pressed the "rewind" button, you would normally expect to see some changes!

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 19 June 2011 09:55:23PM 1 point [-]

Ok, there's your problem: You don't understand what is meant by 'symmetry'.

Comment author: timtyler 19 June 2011 11:31:21PM -1 points [-]

At this stage, I don't really see why you are continuing to comment :-(

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 20 June 2011 09:13:26PM 0 points [-]

To convince you that you are wrong about CPT violation and T violation. Why are you posting?

Once more. Start with a left-handed antineutrino. T-reverse under your assumption that this also reverses CP. You now have a right-handed neutrino. Because of CP violation, it does not have the same physical properties that it started with. Therefore, T symmetry is broken. Which part of this argument do you disagree with?

Comment author: timtyler 20 June 2011 09:44:31PM 0 points [-]

The "Therefore". Reverse the universe, and a left-handed antineutrino turns into a right-handed neutrino travelling in the opposite direction. Everyone agrees about that. Its different properties don't prevent the universe from retracing its steps - rather they are essential for that to happen correctly.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 21 June 2011 01:59:58AM 0 points [-]

No; wrong. Its different properties will, precisely, cause the universe not to retrace its steps exactly. The rate for X\to e^+ \nue is different from that for e^- \bar\nue \to X; this is what CP violation means. Therefore, when you have reversed time, the antineutrino will not precisely retrace the steps the neutrino took.

Comment author: timtyler 21 June 2011 08:35:49AM *  0 points [-]

Do you realise that what you are claiming is pretty unconventional? Here is the conventional view:

The implication of CPT symmetry is that a "mirror-image" of our universe — with all objects having their positions reflected by an imaginary plane (corresponding to a parity inversion), all momenta reversed (corresponding to a time inversion) and with all matter replaced by antimatter (corresponding to a charge inversion)— would evolve under exactly our physical laws. The CPT transformation turns our universe into its "mirror image" and vice versa. CPT symmetry is recognized to be a fundamental property of physical laws.

Investingating to see if I could see what you are talking about found some claims that the symmetry between neutrinos and antineutrinos is violated:

Several experimental searches of such violations have been performed during the last few years and recently there has been some strong evidence for a violation of charge symmetry in that antineutrinos seem to have a different mass than neutrinos.

In the highly unlikely case of any such asymmetry being confirmed, that would break CPT symmetry - and serious revisions of fundamental physics would be needed.