Vladimir_M comments on An Outside View on Less Wrong's Advice - Less Wrong

60 Post author: Mass_Driver 07 July 2011 04:46AM

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Comment author: Vladimir_M 08 July 2011 05:03:29AM *  13 points [-]

It seems to me that every human society has some romantic notion of heroic rebels and nonconformists, but for reasons that are interesting to speculate on, ours is obsessed with it to a very exceptional degree. (So much that people nowadays typically use the word "nonconformist" with a tone of approval, and rarely for those who fail to conform with norms and views that they themselves actually like.) This opens the way for people to gain status if they are capable of doing things that signal in a way that resonates with this heroic "nonconformist" image, while at the same time avoiding any really dangerous nonconformity.

Take for example all those artists and authors who get praised as "daring," "transgressive", "challenging taboos," etc., even though the things they do have been run-of-the-mill for many decades (or even much longer), the views they express (insofar as they express any) are entirely predictable for anyone familiar with the respectable intellectual mainstream, their high status is acknowledged by the mainstream media and academia, and some of them even get rich off of this "nonconformity." There are many other similar examples of cheap "nonconformist" signaling that is not backed by any serious nonconformity, including most (if not all) of the contemporary "subcultures."

(An even more extreme and farcical phenomenon occurs when the establishment itself includes some sort of fake "opposition" or orchestrates supposedly authentic "protests" or "activism." I won't get into any examples of this to avoid stirring up controversy.)

In contrast, true nonconformity would mean adopting views (and undertaking consequent actions) that seriously lower your status and risk severe loss of reputation, unemployability, criminal penalties, or even violent confrontation with the powers-that-be. Examples would be refusing to recognize the authority of the government over some laws whose enforcement is taken seriously, or becoming an outspoken propagandist for some shockingly extremist fringe group. Clearly this is not a way to a happy life, regardless of whether you have any sympathy for any such sort of people and their views.

Please also see my reply to Mycroft65536 below regarding non-conformist groups.

Comment author: taryneast 08 July 2011 04:20:10PM *  4 points [-]

In contrast, true nonconformity would mean adopting views (and undertaking consequent actions) that seriously lower your status and risk severe loss of reputation, unemployability, ...

Doesn't have to be as serious as bucking the law. It can even be as simple as telling your boss that his idea won't work (because of X, Y and Z). Or deciding to buck the corporate dress-requirements because you know you will never be put in front of a real customer and therefore should be allowed to be comfortable at work... etc etc

Comment author: Vladimir_M 08 July 2011 06:11:14PM *  2 points [-]

Only if you stretch the definition of "nonconformity" to the point of meaninglessness. If you define it so broadly to include things like these you mention -- polite disagreement with authority figures over technical matters and slight bending of rules to make things easier -- then practically every human being who has ever lived has been a "nonconformist."

Comment author: taryneast 09 July 2011 04:20:01PM *  5 points [-]

Ah... by this I take it that you've never worked in a job where telling the boss what to do will end in your being disciplined for not toeing the company line. We're not talking "polite disagreement over technical matters" here. There are situations of this kind where you definitely suffer social stigma for speaking out. ...mostly when the company has become a cult... and it's much better to avoid this kind of company if you can - but that's very difficult in today's corporate culture.

Comment author: Vladimir_M 10 July 2011 01:18:25AM 4 points [-]

Now I understand better what you're talking about. I have seen such examples of institutional mendacity, and I certainly agree that in some sorts of institutions it is so widespread that you may be faced with unpleasant trade-offs between your career (or other) interest and your integrity. So yes, I'd certainly count it as real nonconformity if you opt for the latter.