The True Rejection Challenge

43 Post author: Alicorn 27 June 2011 07:18AM

An exercise:

Name something that you do not do but should/wish you did/are told you ought, or that you do less than is normally recommended.  (For instance, "exercise" or "eat vegetables".)

Make an exhaustive list of your sufficient conditions for avoiding this thing.  (If you suspect that your list may be non-exhaustive, mention that in your comment.)

Precommit that: If someone comes up with a way to do the thing which doesn't have any of your listed problems, you will at least try it.  It counts if you come up with this response yourself upon making your list.

(Based on: Is That Your True Rejection?)

Edit to add: Kindly stick to the spirit of the exercise; if you have no advice in line with the exercise, this is not the place to offer it.  Do not drift into confrontational or abusive demands that people adjust their restrictions to suit your cached suggestion, and do not offer unsolicited other-optimizing.

To alleviate crowding, Armok_GoB has created a second thread for this challenge.

Comments (532)

Comment author: [deleted] 29 June 2011 11:22:55AM *  6 points [-]

I should play games (of the video, card, or board variety.) I get told this a lot, by very intelligent people.

Reasons I don't:

  1. I already have a hard time getting work done while having a side project, a relationship, and imperfect discipline; I dread adding another hobby.

  2. It actually takes a lot of work to get good at a game, and if I'm putting in work, I want to have something to show for it.

  3. Certain kinds of video games (i.e. Portal) are viscerally unpleasant for me; I'm not used to navigating a 3d virtual environment since I never played video games as a kid, and so I spend all my time bumping into walls and wondering why other people pay for the privilege.

  4. I could maybe justify poker to myself as useful practice in strategic thinking, but the only people who'd want to play with me live out of town.

Comment author: erratio 01 July 2011 11:31:52AM 2 points [-]

For number 2 and 3, my gut reaction is to say you haven't found the right kind of games for your aptitudes, if you're experiencing it as work. For computer games, there are genres which don't rely so much on spatial awareness and/or reflexes such as turn-based strategy. For board games and card games, there is an extremely wide range of play styles out there, some of which will appeal to you more than others.

Comment author: beoShaffer 29 June 2011 07:08:02PM 2 points [-]

For 4 is internet poker an option?

Comment author: BenLowell 29 June 2011 12:26:16PM 2 points [-]

I see no reason for you to play games unless you wish to discuss games with these people and have something in common with them.

Comment author: JackEmpty 29 June 2011 01:58:06PM *  10 points [-]

Benefits of playing games:

  • Improved hand-eye coordination
  • Strategic puzzle solving skills
  • Decreased stress level
  • By far, more mentally engaging than television or movies, which are passive entertainment
  • introspection in choice-morality games
  • by Playing Like a Designer you can learn how to use gamelike elements in non-game environments (like the classroom) to make them more fun

See also: http://www.tastyhuman.com/10-benefits-of-playing-video-games/

Role-playing games can also have some of the same benefits (albeit much less salient) as improv theater and rejection therapy. Which is more fun, getting rejected by a dozen people you don't know to have a conversation, or having your level eight human rogue get rejected a dozen times in a bar?

For all of the above, however, YMMV.

Comment author: Halceon 30 June 2011 01:25:21PM 1 point [-]

For #1 you can combine games with other activities, mainly the relationship. Playing boardgames together is a delightful experience. Especially games that require direct interaction like Alias. Generally you should look for games with 2 players as the minimum requirement and a low setup/ cleanup time.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 27 June 2011 08:14:26PM 6 points [-]

Suggestion: If you have financial constraints for your solution, be specific.

If there's a known cost for a solution, check financial constraints to make sure the cost doesn't exceed them.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 29 June 2011 07:18:39AM 4 points [-]

This may not have been as good advice as it appears. I posted it because I was annoyed at the suggestion of a Roomba for someone who was very broke, but the result of the suggestion was information that it's possible to borrow a Roomba for one day for free.

There may be a general principle to be found, but I don't know what it is.

Comment author: JamesAndrix 25 June 2011 05:12:16PM 16 points [-]

I have two reasons not to use your system:

One: If you're committed to doing the action if you yourself can find a way to avoid the problems, then as you come to such solutions your instinct to flinch away will declare the list 'not done yet' and add more problems, and perhaps problems more unsolvable in style, until the list is an adequate defense against doing the thing.

One way to possibly mitigate this is to try not to think of any solutions until the list is done, and perhaps some scope restrictions on the allowable conditions. Despite this, there is another problem:

Two: The sun is too big.

Comment author: handoflixue 27 June 2011 07:46:31AM 4 points [-]

Two: The sun is too big.

This is my new favourite objection :)

Comment author: pwno 28 June 2011 08:44:30PM 2 points [-]

It's a good exercise in finding your true objections.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 June 2011 05:29:50PM 2 points [-]

The sun is too big.

How big is too big?

Comment author: CuSithBell 25 June 2011 05:46:47PM 3 points [-]

They say not to eat anything bigger than your head.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 June 2011 05:47:15PM 20 points [-]

Well, they're missing out on some swell watermelons, then.

Comment author: Normal_Anomaly 26 June 2011 07:24:37PM 3 points [-]

Two: The sun is too big.

I'm afraid I don't get your joke. Does this have anything to do with the system itself, or is it just an example of an insurmountable obstacle?

Comment author: jhuffman 27 June 2011 04:50:12PM 2 points [-]

It seems like both to me. The system is vulnerable to arbitrary problems that meet only a personal standard; the problems themselves are not subject to scrutiny.

Comment author: DriveByCommenter 30 June 2011 03:28:54PM 5 points [-]

Procrastination is making me miss a lot of opportunities. Up to and including (in progress): having a chance at anchoring myself in a first-world country vs blowing it and having to return to eastern Europe.

Barriers:

  1. High initial anxiety when sitting down to start a project. Related to #2.

  2. Low confidence in own abilities after so many mediocre last-minute solutions in the past.

  3. No social support - no friends interested in programming.

  4. Additional anxiety due to being behind schedule with 3-4 items - article, internship work, internship report, learning a framework to try and get a job at company I'm interning at. Also, haven't made proper Plan B, C arrangements in case I don't get the job (again due to anxiety).

It's this annoying vicious circle of anxiety and procrastination I can't seem to get out of. Any takers? PJ Eby's comments on akrasia were interesting, but we go back to the issue of bootstrapping enough motivation/confidence to do the actions required to get the ball rolling.

Comment author: kurokikaze 30 June 2011 04:43:09PM 3 points [-]

1, 2, 3 - You can get into opensource social coding like Github or Bitbucket. This will improve your coding skills and make you some coder friends to help with tough questions (worked for me). Time constraint is harder to deal with.

Comment author: CuSithBell 30 June 2011 05:04:00PM 2 points [-]

Would you mind expanding on this a little? These websites look like version control / project management systems, how does one jump into the "public" projects you're talking about?

Comment author: kurokikaze 30 June 2011 09:41:34PM *  2 points [-]

It's simple. I'll show on one example.

I was interested in Sphinx search server, so I've decided to do its protocol implementation in javascript (for node.js).

I've created project on github and got remote URL. Then I've created folder on local disk and started coding. Reverse-enginereed PHP Sphinx connector, written some JS code, commited it to local Git repo. Next step: add remote URL to git repo. After this I can push my changes to Github with "git push remote master", where "master" is the branch name. And voila, project is on the Github.

Then I write some more code and get first working prototype. I announced it in node.js Google group to attract another developers to project. They watch, comment on commits (not often) and send pull requests for code via Github (more often). Then I decide if I need the patch and apply / modify+apply / decline patch. Someone can fork my project if they feel I won't add some feature they need or I'm too lazy updating the code.

Basically, that's it.

Comment author: CuSithBell 30 June 2011 10:08:37PM 2 points [-]

Awesome, thanks :)

Comment author: JackEmpty 29 June 2011 03:55:00PM 5 points [-]

Just as an aside and a note to all giving the recommendations and advice... focus on First Order Optimal Strategies.

Sure self-editing to not have your rejections be rejections anymore, by training the habit over the course of a few months to a year or more MAY work, and may work very well. But it's not the strategy that has the lowest skill/effort input to highest power/effect output ratio.

Comment author: pthalo 27 June 2011 12:42:19AM 5 points [-]

Things I really need to do but can't seem to make myself do them:

there are clothes rotting in my washing machine. I had a migraine and couldn't hang them up, and the migraine lasted about a week, and now there's fungus growing on them. I've read online that this can be fixed by washing them 3-4 times and then hanging them in the sun to dry. Adding vinegar to the washing machine can help. The washing machine is right next to the bathtub, and I can't bathe properly because the smell is overpowering and makes me dizzy and light headed.

1) I'm still sore and constantly on the verge of a migraine. There's no guarantee that if I start a load I'll be able to hang it up.

2) Medicines sometimes help the migraines but not very much. I mostly have to ride them out. It may be a week yet till I can be sure that I can hang it up to dry.

3) There are noise restrictions in my building, so I can't make lots of noise after 8pm. This means that I'd need to get up early in order to wash the clothes. I got up early for a few days, but it made the headache worse, and it rained anyway, so not much sunlight.

4) I think the real reason is that when I do eventually take them out of the washing machine (having been washed X more times), I will have to touch them with my hands.

5) I can't really afford to replace them. Some of the items in the washing machine I could get over losing (I do have other shirts), but others are items I don't own enough of as it is.

6) i am very allergic to bleach and have trouble breathing if i walk through an area where it was used within the last half hour. so i cannot use it on my clothes. but vinegar should do the trick.

7) if i leave it much longer, the fungus will eat holes in my clothes. and leave stains. but some of the articles of clothing may not be too stained any may be wearable around the house, once they are fungus free.

Similarly, the floor in the apartment is filthy. Absolutely filthy. Covered in all sorts of stuff. It's a really hard carpet to clean (you have to brush it to coax the dirt out before you can vacuum it, or the vacuum doesn't do anything). But vacuum cleaners are loud and the noise would drive my pain levels up even higher. i can't vacuum, because i would have to devote an entire day to it (literally. have done so in the past and it still wasn't fully clean, just cleaner), and i dont have the stamina for a day of it. this is really the same problem as the laundry except that it's less bad and less urgent.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 27 June 2011 01:56:47AM 9 points [-]

More information about your situation might be useful here. My first suggestion is to see if you can find someone local to help you with it (friends, family), but that seems like an obvious enough solution that I expect that if it were that simple you'd have done it already. So, what resources do you have available?

Comment author: [deleted] 27 June 2011 02:15:57AM 5 points [-]

Seconded. This looks like a job for another human. Where are you staying at, pthalo?

Comment author: Armok_GoB 27 June 2011 10:06:49AM 4 points [-]

Yea. With migraines like that it is unreasonable to expect that you should be able to do anything like this on your own. Please get help before you get sick from the unsanitary conditions.

Comment author: Unnamed 28 June 2011 05:46:12AM 7 points [-]

Move.

It sounds like you're living in a toxic environment which is making you sick. Does that fit your experience (is your history of illness - migraines, etc. - concentrated in the time when you've been living in your current apartment)? So find a new place to live. And be careful what you bring - you don't want to bring the toxic stuff with you.

As a trial run, you could try staying someplace else for a week or so to see if you feel better. Bring as little with you as possible (even the clothes you wear should be new/borrowed), and don't go back to your apartment at all during that time.

Comment author: saturn 27 June 2011 08:25:41AM 7 points [-]

You could use hydrogen peroxide instead of chlorine bleach. It's not as effective as a disinfectant but it's odorless, cheap, and probably a lot more effective than vinegar. If you get 3% concentration (the most common) you'll probably need to pour a whole bottle over the clothes, then wait an hour or two.

Depending on what's underneath the carpet, you could consider just removing it.

Comment author: jimrandomh 27 June 2011 03:47:12AM *  19 points [-]

There are clothes rotting in my washing machine. I had a migraine and couldn't hang them up, and the migraine lasted about a week, and now there's fungus growing on them. I've read online that this can be fixed by washing them 3-4 times and then hanging them in the sun to dry. Adding vinegar to the washing machine can help. The washing machine is right next to the bathtub, and I can't bathe properly because the smell is overpowering and makes me dizzy and light headed.

Do not fuck around with possibly-toxic fungus. The fact that the fumes have immediate negative effects strongly suggests that it's toxic. Do not ignore sudden health problems that coincide with the appearance of mold in your environment, especially not ones as severe as a perpetual migraine. Those clothes are probably not salvageable, but they should be the least of your worries. You need outside help cleaning your apartment, and you need it yesterday. You also need a physical.

Comment author: pthalo 28 June 2011 03:33:15AM 7 points [-]

This comment was really helpful to me. Thank you. Googling "toxic fungus" was sufficiently scary to get me out of "what is it about laundry that i'm just not understanding that caused this to happen" mode (answer: there is nothing about laundry that i don't "understand". i also have long been aware of what fungus is and what conditions foster its growth, but was unable to prevent those conditions from occuring because of health problems, which the fungus exacerbated), and made me realise the flaw in my: "wait till i'm feeling better and then deal with it" strategy.

Comment author: BillyOblivion 27 June 2011 11:13:47AM 6 points [-]

As others have mentioned get help. If you have no friends who can do it look on Craigslist for someone who cleans houses. Explain the situation to them and have them bring their steam cleaner.

While the clothes are washing have them steam clean your carpets at least twice.

Then when you get done paying this off, go get a good vacuum cleaner, and if you are the sort of person who's always tracking in dirt (I am) get a cheap carpet shampooer.

Also--have to comment--the migraine thing really should be your focus. My wife gets these and absolutely refuses to do the food/activity diary thing, is horrible about exercise and the rest. Fortunately for her she only has them for a day or two about once a month.

Comment author: pthalo 28 June 2011 04:37:43AM 2 points [-]

We don't have Craigslist in Hungary, but we have a newspaper for classified ads that posts the ads online as well. I could search that to see if anyone's advertising something. My landlady has a steam cleaner and has said I can borrow it sometime.

I always take off my shoes at the door, but the cats get hairballs (I give them special treats to cut down on hairballs, which seems to help, but not 100%), and accidents happen, so some sort of shampoo might work.

I wrote a small program in PHP/MYSQL for keeping track of my migraines. You list what you ate that day, what (and how much) you drank, how much you slept and between what hours, pain levels, other complaints, and a few other things. It keeps track of your menstrual cycle as well (if you're doing it every day, there's a checkbox to check on the first day of the cycle). It then lets you sort by any of those criteria so that you can look back over the data and try to make sense of it. It's not hosted online anywhere (i was never done tinkering with it, and i never added anything like a login form or support for multiple users, so you have to have a server with php and mysql set up on your computer to run it. I kept track of it for a while, but then started forgetting more and more and I had no idea how to analyse the data I'd amassed (and probably would've needed more data anyway). Also, I wasn't sure if I was asking the right questions (or enough of the right questions). A big source of my migraines was the bad mattress I was sleeping on, which wasn't even in that data. Getting a new mattress earlier this year helped a lot, but things have started to get bad again (though now at least, I know I'm sleeping well on a good mattress).

Comment author: Unnamed 28 June 2011 07:49:47AM 3 points [-]

A big source of my migraines was the bad mattress I was sleeping on, which wasn't even in that data. Getting a new mattress earlier this year helped a lot, but things have started to get bad again (though now at least, I know I'm sleeping well on a good mattress).

Maybe the problem was the stuff living on the mattress, rather than the mattress itself. And now it's grown back.

Comment author: BillyOblivion 29 June 2011 10:31:56AM 1 point [-]

Well, here's one solution that may solve a couple of your problems. Redo your migraine log such that you can have individual logins/tracking, then wrap a social community around it. Crowd source (to use a buzzword) your migraine issue and figure out a way to both help others and have others help you.

There will be no simple way to analyze your data other than to sit down and look for patterns. Play with different ways of looking it it.

Heck, it COULD be related to your not eating enough. Low blood sugar is one headache trigger (for me), and chronic low blood sugar plus smoking could EASILY be a problem.

Looking down thread it very well could ALSO be a mold or other environmental issues.

If you're planning on moving out of the country in a year or two, what is the possibility of you just going to live with your mom or sister until your visa/travel arrangements are fixed? This may alleviate your financial problems (you can always pay your mom/sister "rent" but it will be less than you are paying now), get you into a cleaner place (which might clear up some of your health issues) and get you to a point where you focus on quitting the smokes (which is about the toughest thing I've ever done, to include US Marine Corps boot camp and a year in Baghdad).

Comment author: Bagricula 28 June 2011 04:16:19PM 4 points [-]

I've sent an overview of your situation to all my friends who are doctors or training to be doctors. I will let you know their opinion. (I've also included information from your meat and vegetables post).

I strongly suggest you do not wait for them to get back to me and consult with local experts as soon as possible.

Also, if anyone in the LW community has medical training or knows someone who does who would be willing to offer an opinion on this, I encourage them to do so.

Comment author: Bagricula 29 June 2011 02:33:29PM 3 points [-]

So far have gotten back responses from two doctors / doctors-in-training. They both strongly suggest seeing a social worker to find out what resources are available vis-a-vie cleaning your apartment, improving your living situation, etc.

They also suggest you might take vitamin B and folate supplements, but you should check with your doctor to see if you have any deficiencies that may be contributing to your chronic pain and tiredness (as you mentioned in the eating vegetables and meat post).

Finally, there are a number of follow-up questions. You don't need to answer all of these, and ultimately what matters is that you see your doctor, but if you want here they are. Feel free to respond by PM.

  1. Is the chronic pain a recent or long-term problem?

  2. Are the migraines a recent or long-term problem?

  3. Are you depressed? Do you have a history of depression?

  4. Any history of eating disorders?

Comment author: [deleted] 27 June 2011 02:28:09AM 4 points [-]

For the unnumbered reason of potentially getting another migraine by having to do the laundry, and just in general to get past this rut/problem: Ask a friend or family member for assistance with the task. Alternately, offer someone money to do your laundry (an amount less than the cost of replacing the clothes).

For 4 specifically, maybe try wearing gloves (dishwashing gloves or latex gloves) to avoid touching the mold/fungus directly.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 27 June 2011 03:09:09AM 2 points [-]

Could a face mask and nose plugs help with exposure to the fungus?

Comment author: taryneast 27 June 2011 04:20:32PM *  2 points [-]

Re: vacuuming when you are physically unable.

I strongly recommend an iRobot vacuum cleaner (roomba). It will vacuum for you.

By the sound of it, your carpet is badly ingrained with dirt, so the vacuum will not get it all out in one day - but if you set it to vacuum every day (which few humans would normally do voluntarily, but the roomba doesn't mind) it is highly likely that over time it will improve until "clean" it a normal state for it.

Comment author: Chroma 28 June 2011 07:22:27AM 2 points [-]

Another benefit: Having a robo-vacuum on a schedule forces you to get in the habit of picking objects (papers, clothing) up off the floor.

But pets, smoking, and moldy clothes? Ick. A robot vacuum isn't going to put a dent in that.

pthalo: Think of your pets. They probably don't enjoy living in that environment. You owe it to them to make your home pleasant.

Comment author: taryneast 28 June 2011 03:15:59PM 1 point [-]

Another benefit: Having a robo-vacuum on a schedule forces you to get in the habit of picking objects (papers, clothing) up off the floor.

Yes - though I'll admit that I discovered the "floor mess" easily becomes "chair and table mess" without having to actually put the things away... Still - it's a step in the right direction. :)

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 29 June 2011 03:54:52PM 2 points [-]

"floor mess" easily becomes "chair and table mess" without having to actually put the things away...

Here is someone's solution to that problem. I haven't tried it, so I can't personally vouch for it, but it seems likely to work in most cases.

Comment author: pthalo 28 June 2011 05:01:20AM 2 points [-]

woah, that is so totally cool. Expensive -- more than a month's rent and utilities combined, but seriously cool.

Also, they sell them in my country -- even in my city, and the webpage says they have a promotion thing where you can borrow it for a night and then take it back the next day for free -- under the idea that a person would be sold on the idea and wouldnt want to go back to their old vacuum cleaner. So, basically, I could get my carpet cleaned for free, and then give it back. If the thing would clean it thoroughly (and I'd be willing to babysit it for a night if it needed to be emptied frequently), it's possible that it could get enough of the ingrained dirt out that i could make reasonable progress with regular vacuuming.

Comment author: taryneast 28 June 2011 03:04:53PM 1 point [-]

I like that idea. Yes you could do it in a night. It'll seem frustrating if you watch it (because it ha a random walk algorithm)- so don't. Just let it do its thing and empty it every so often. It will clean your floor so thoroughly that you'll be surprised.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 June 2011 02:37:23AM 2 points [-]

On 2: What kind of drugs are we talking about that don't help? If you haven't tried triptans, that could be a thing.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 30 June 2011 09:59:04AM 4 points [-]

This thread is getting long enough to be a little inconvenient to monitor, though the bright green edges on new comments help a lot.

Maybe it's time for a True Rejection Challenge, part 2.

Comment author: Bagricula 30 June 2011 01:30:19PM 2 points [-]

Yes. I'd also love to see follow-ups afterwards to report on what was effective, what wasn't, what form of advice worked best, and what would the relevant known and (at the time) hidden variables.

What can I say, I'm a sucker for tracking.

Comment author: Swimmer963 30 June 2011 10:36:06AM 1 point [-]

though the bright green edges on new comments help a lot.

That's what the bright green edges mean!

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 30 June 2011 11:53:37AM 2 points [-]

More specifically, the green edge appears on comment that are new since the last time you refreshed the page.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 27 June 2011 02:31:30AM 4 points [-]

I eat less fruit and vegetables than I should. This seems to mostly or entirely be because I don't reliably alieve that they're food.

This manifests in a few different ways: When shopping, most fruit or veggies or fruit- or veggie-containing things don't register as things that I might consider buying. When choosing something to eat at home, those things don't register as things that I might want to eat. For most fruit and a few veggies, once they're actually in front of me in a ready-to-eat form (which does not include whole fruit), I'll eat them, but getting to that point is unreliable. For most veggies and a few kinds of fruit - including several that I actually like - even when they're in front of me in an edible form I'll automatically eat around them unless I make a conscious effort to do otherwise, which is irritating to do. I would literally find it easier to eat a sheet of paper than a head of broccoli, even though I actually like the taste of broccoli in many contexts.

Adding fruit or veggies to things in such a way that they can't be picked around is a partial solution at best - it doesn't solve the problems of remembering to buy the supplies and actually use them, and if the result smells or tastes like something that registers strongly enough as not-food, I'll have the same kind of hard time eating it. Further complications: I prefer not to put a lot of effort into my meals, and I have trouble swallowing rice, which means that things in the 'frozen rice with broccoli bits and cheese' genre are not good for me to rely on. (Tasty, though.)

I'm not actually sure that this is my true rejection. Even if it is, I'm prickly enough about taking advice that I might reject some on general principles, though I seem to have gotten better about that in the last few years.

Comment author: Benquo 27 June 2011 02:53:44AM *  6 points [-]

Since you say you're prickly about advice, I will try just giving you the reasons for my suggestions and omit the actual suggestions when possible. Please let me know if that way of phrasing is actually helpful, or just annoyingly indirect.

On buying more vegetables

I've heard that people buy more food if they shop while hungry. People also are more likely to interpret more things as edible if they are hungry.

I find I buy more vegetables when I am somewhere that sells primarily vegetables, like a farmer's market. At the farmer's market, there is also the illusion of scarcity since it's a once-a-week stuff (even though I could buy similar things in the grocery store later), so I stock up a lot.

Some friends of mine subscribe to CSA or other vegetable-delivery programs, which takes pretty much all of the effort out of it.

On eating the vegetables you've bought

It is possible to make a meal or part of a meal that is nearly 100% vegetables.

After experimenting with a few methods of preparing them, I found that roasting works for me as a way of preparing solo vegetables; most vegetables taste good to me when coated with olive oil and some light seasoning (and sometimes some grated Romano or Parmagiano cheese), and roasted. It gives them a satisfying, almost meaty/buttery taste. It is also pretty easy and doesn't require a lot of time once I got the timing right and stopped needing to keep peeking into the oven to determine doneness. If you want some more specific roasting suggestions I am happy to provide them. But you may find other preparations are more appealing.

Even if you prefer to mix veggies with non-veggies, I suspect you wouldn't be able to eat around veggies in a smooth or fine-textured soup very easily (e.g. cream of broccoli, carrot soup, gazpacho). And you'd have to decompose a sandwich to avoid eating a cross-section of the ingredients.

Related question: Vegetables are more easily visually identifiable in some foods than others. For example, in something like pasta with broccoli, you can see the broccoli pieces and they are obviously separate from the pasta. On the other hand, in something like a curry or stew, it's not always easy to see which lumps are meat, which lumps are something like potato or cheese, and which lumps are veggies, since they're all covered in sauce. Do you find you eat around the veggies to a different extent in foods that differ along this dimension, or is it a pretty uniform phenomenon?

Comment author: Armok_GoB 27 June 2011 10:43:13AM 3 points [-]

What have you actually tried to train your brain to reclassify them?

Example training task: There is a deck containing images of various food items, vegetables/fruits, whatever you currently classify vegetables like (non edible plants maybe?), and completely random objects. Sort it into edible and non-edible piles as fast as possible, without thinking and while maybe listening to an interesting podcast or radio or somehting to distract you.

No idea if that'd work, but if you think up 20 exercises like that at least one of them should work.

Comment author: pthalo 26 June 2011 11:59:49PM *  4 points [-]

I should stop smoking.

1) I am addicted to nicotine.

2) Nicotine patches are expensive, cigarettes are very cheap.

3) cigarettes supress my appetite and they are cheaper than food. I can smoke 25 cigarettes for the cost of a loaf of bread. it takes me more than a day to smoke that many. if i want to buy things to put on the loaf of bread, we're up to about 3-4 days worth of cigarettes.

4) if i quit smoking i would have more money for food, but not so much more as to make a huge difference.

5) smoking is my only vice and my only luxury.

6) I currently have a 0% chance of becoming pregnant (long distance relationship + we're both girls anyway), so I do not have to worry about harming a fetus. -- i do plan to quit someday before i have children, but that is a few years away yet.

7) i'm in my mid 20s, so the health risks aren't looming large yet. i can quit later.

8) i need something to do with my hands and my mouth. i dont like gum or lollies all that much.

Comment author: taryneast 27 June 2011 04:56:02PM *  10 points [-]

7) i'm in my mid 20s, so the health risks aren't looming large yet. i can quit later.

Um - I'm afraid I have to tell you that "later health effects" are not caused by smoking later in life. They are caused by smoking early in life... and then getting older (whether or not you quit).

You can improve your chance of recovering from the damage you are doing by quitting right now.

As a frequent health-campaign in Aus tells us "every cigarette is causing you damage"

Comment author: pthalo 28 June 2011 05:31:52AM 2 points [-]

This is true, but I've also read studies that within 24 hours of quitting smoking, there are already noticable health benefits and lowered risks of problems, which continue to get better the longer the time has elapsed. I'm not arguing that smoking between the ages of 15-18 & 20-27, as I have done, will have no effect, but if I quit while I'm still young -- I probably have a few years left where one way or the other won't matter too much -- then by the time I reach an age where heart disease, lung disease, cancer, stroke, etc. are more likely dangers for me, my lungs will have had a decade or so to recover and hopefully that will be enough. I've gotten a few grey hairs already, and a few wrinkles, so I know that the time to quit will be soon, but I don't know if I'm ready to do it just yet. The last time I quit (for an entire year, cold turkey), it was because I got tired of the way I smelled and didn't want to smell like that anymore. I only started up again because I had friends who smoked (who have since moved away). I think if I can get into that headspace again, where I really don't want to smoke and am tired of it, then I will be able to quit easily, whereas if I'm just doing it because of knowledge of health risks in the distant future -- that's not immediate enough to make it easy.

As far as pregnancy goes, I think that as long as I quit at least a year before I'm planning to get pregnant, the fetus will be okay. My grandmother was encouraged by her doctor to smoke during pregnancy to calm her nerves. (This was in the early 1960,s I believe, and I'm fairly certain the effects of smoking were known to doctors at that time, but i dont know) The kid was born weak and sickly with all sorts of allergies that none of his siblings shared. He survived, and it could have been much worse than allergies, but it was still a bad thing.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 28 June 2011 12:19:39PM 3 points [-]

Just because quitting smoking will allow your body to heal some of the damage, doesn't mean it will allow your body to heal all of it, even in 10 or 20 years.

Comment author: taryneast 28 June 2011 03:12:44PM *  1 point [-]

Yes. I agree.

I think you (pthalo) have misunderstood what the "over time" thing is all about.

You chance of cancer starts out low - you may start out with, say, a 1% chance of getting cancer - but that still means it's possible for you to get cancer with your very first cigarette... over time that chance will go up. It still means that even after you quit - it could be too late. You could already have cancer.

After you quit, the chance that you will develop cancer after that point will go down... but if you already have cancer - then you already have it. Even if you quit and stay clean for he rest of your life.

On top of that is the other damage that you are causing to yourself. Destruction of the lung tissue, scar-tissue do due heat-damage of the lips and throat. Also - you know those wrinkles you're getting? Your skin is being damaged due to reduced oxygenation. Cigarettes are known to prematurely age the skin... and that damage doesn't grow back either.

These may well heal somewhat after you quit (to a certain extent)... but will never go away completely. As AdeleneDawner says - you will never get back to how you were before the cigarettes

The best chance for you is to quit immediately.

Comment author: Volndeau 28 June 2011 11:17:02PM 4 points [-]

Agreed, Cigarette smoking is usually a frequency habit. For arguments sake, a pack a day is 20 cigarettes in the 16 hours you are awake, that means the smell/taste/sight is always around.

1) Nicotine, while addictive is nowhere near as addictive as the other chemicals put into cigarettes to keep them burning. I smoked cigarettes for 3 years before picking up cigars. While it would take a research team to find what is in a cigarette, I can tell you what is in my cigars, aged tobacco leaves. I smoked less and less cigarettes as time went on (about 3 weeks). I have been without cigarettes for a year and currently smoke cigars once to twice a week.

2) Cigars, while some can be stupidly expensive, are relatively cheap. One of my favorite cigars is about $5 a stick, at 3 sticks, that's $15 a week. I am sure that is cheaper than your current cost. You can also find "mistakes" for as low as $1.(I do realize that is my current cost, and while weening myself off of cigarettes, it was more expensive.)

3) I thought that as well, though I found that once I proved to myself that I had willpower to quit cigarettes, it was much easier to maintain, and even lose weight.

4) Don't spend more on food if you don't need more, put it towards savings.

5) I love smoking cigars. Sitting down after a long day with your favorite drink and a cigar is incredibly relaxing. The best part is, it is not addicting. I have gone weeks without needing to smoke.

6) I think this is an excellent alternative. It makes smoking a true luxury, not an addiction. When the time comes, you can stop for 9 months and pick it back up if you want to, not because you need to.

7) The human body is incredibly resilient. Although, anything in excess will destroy it. 20 cigarettes in a 16 hour period for 10 years, killer. 150 cigars a year (slightly more than the number of cigarettes consumed in a week) is not excess. While I can't say it is helping my health, I can say I am still able to hike, climb, run and swim.

8) As you lessen your dependency on cigarettes, you will have these oral and manual cravings less, though you will still see me twirling a paperclip in my mouth from time to time.

I hope this comes as some help.

Comment author: lsparrish 30 June 2011 12:27:12AM *  3 points [-]

If you want to use it as a nootropic, unflavored nicotine is pretty cheap. For example, you can get 60 ml at 25 mg/ml for 8.75 plus shipping. Only about 1mg is absorbed from a typical cigarette due to combustion, so this is the equivalent of 1500 cigarettes.

Comment author: Manfred 28 June 2011 05:50:22AM 2 points [-]

5) smoking is my only vice and my only luxury.

Sounds like you need more luxuries :D

One of the things my brother did near the end of when he smoked and during while he was quitting was getting into really good scotch. He'd take a little glass of very expensive scotch and nurse it for an hour or so.

Comment author: taryneast 27 June 2011 04:57:46PM 2 points [-]

8) i need something to do with my hands and my mouth. i dont like gum or lollies all that much.

chew on the end of your pen. of get a ring and twirl it around your finger. or take up knitting or some other hand-crafty activity to quell your fidget-cravings (which I get too).

Comment author: pthalo 28 June 2011 05:37:00AM 3 points [-]

i've started crocheting semirecently. i actually started with "smoke less" in my mind. my first project is a hyperbolic möbius strip (directions: chain as many as you want, sc to end of chain, repeat for a few rows, crochet it together into a möbius strip, then continue sc increasing one every three stitches). perfect for mastering single crochet stich. Maybe I'll do the next with double crochet stitches to work on those. im slow at it and not very good yet, but that is because i am a newbie.

and i do have a ring to play with. i'll try to use it more. :)

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 28 June 2011 06:32:25AM 2 points [-]

In this vein, I have known people who replaced the hand/mouth activity of cigarettes with candy canes. If you don't want all the sugar, flavored toothpicks are another option often recommended to help with quitting.

Comment author: Alicorn 27 June 2011 12:31:56AM 2 points [-]

I think you should put separate things into separate comments so the threading makes more sense.

Comment author: Waffle_Iron 28 June 2011 04:24:11PM 1 point [-]

Have you considered electronic cigarettes?

Comment author: beriukay 29 June 2011 03:51:25PM 3 points [-]

I've been told that I ought to visit out-of-state more often than I do. My preference is to do it about 0 times a year, but I end up doing something or another about once a year. Now I've got family and friends asking me to go to about a dozen various locations for various visits and vacations.

Reasons for not doing this thing:

  1. I really don't like having to deal with airport security, or the various other hassles that come with airports.
  2. I don't appreciate the cost associated with flights, especially since I feel like I'm getting no lasting value out of these thousand-dollar tickets.
  3. It is difficult to accrue the time off from work to take any big adventures, especially if I still take time off to do the things that I want to do.
  4. I have a preference for trips to have a resting time proportional to the travel time, so if I have to fly 12 hours to get somewhere, I want at least 10 days of being at the location before having to suffer travel back.
  5. My location is not very well suited for road trips. It takes about 6 hours to get to any worthwhile destinations.
  6. I don't really like losing connection to the internet, or my main computer. This isn't a sufficient condition for some of the possible trips, but not all.
  7. I really don't care about many of the things that other people do: I hate the heat (any temperature above 70F or ~21C), I don't like the sunlight, and I don't really like salty water or camping. Major landmarks don't really interest me, and I really don't want to be yet another tourist in a town that loathes tourists.
  8. It is difficult to maintain a weight loss routine when visiting family.
  9. I feel like a bad person when I fly because of reading some stats about carbon footprints (though I cannot recall the source).
  10. It feels wasteful to have a house and a car that cost money regardless as to whether I am at home, and to go somewhere and pay money to stay there.
  11. I feel like there are better things for me to be doing with my time than going somewhere, that I've already seen all kinds of interesting things because of my dad's military life (and thus us moving a lot), and that my memory isn't sufficiently vivid to justify forgetting most everything within just a few months.

I think this list is exhaustive.

Comment author: Alicorn 29 June 2011 05:29:41PM 8 points [-]

Invite others to come visit you.

Comment author: handoflixue 29 June 2011 08:17:58PM 4 points [-]

I would think #12, that you don't actually gain anything from this travel, would be pretty fundamental. Most people spend thousands of dollars on plane tickets because they value seeing family / being social / the actual experience. You don't seem to value any of those things, so why are you doing this?

Comment author: Armok_GoB 30 June 2011 12:21:31PM 3 points [-]

Sounds like the only reason you're even considering travel is social pressure. I'd recommend doing somehting to pre commit to not travelling instead, so you can just point at that to get people to stop nagging you.

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 29 June 2011 08:48:50PM 1 point [-]

6. I don't really like losing connection to the internet, or my main computer. This isn't a sufficient condition for some of the possible trips, but not all.

A smart phone, netbook, or tablet are all lightweight ways to maintain the Internet connection as much as possible (i.e. always, except for when the plane is in the air). Personally, I found myself much more willing to travel after purchasing a smart phone ~1.5 years ago.

Comment author: pthalo 27 June 2011 12:41:44AM 3 points [-]

I don't eat enough vegetables or protein.

1) Vegetables and meat are expensive and are generally not in my budget.

2) I don't like the way I feel after eating meat. I find my thoughts are slower and my stomach feels slightly queasy.

3) Beans take forever to cook. Even if I soak them overnight. Canned beans are expensive.

4) When I buy food, I tend to try to eat as little of it as possible to make it last longer. When I do this with vegetables, they go off and have to be thrown away. But it's so hard to make myself eat now when I could eat later. I know that I'll be hungry a few hours after I eat, so longer I go, the longer it'll be till I get hungry again.

5) Some fruits and vegetables give me bad heart burn. Others don't taste very good.

6) I'm probably not saving all that much money on food by not eating. It's just a weird behaviour I can't break myself of.

7) I'm cooking for one and it's very hard to cook the tiny portions I require. Or rather, it's a lot of work and I only get one meal out of it. If I do get two or three meals out of it, I'm get tired of eating it and can't eat it for a while.

8) I have a small fridge, but no freezer. Frozen vegetables aren't an option for me unless I use them all at once (and then the portion is too big and half of it goes bad).

9) I have problems washing dishes (and of course cannot afford a dish washer), and sometimes i have to wash a plate on 4 or more consecutive days before it's clean. (this isn't /just/ OCD. there really is visible grime on it still after so many washes. i just dont have the arm strength due to the chronic pain.) washing dishes can tire me out to such an extent that i am then unable to cook. cooking and eating tires me out to such an extent that i cant wash the dishes. the best plan i can figure out is to alternate days: eat bread one day and wash dishes. cook the next day and dirty dishes. but the current state of affairs is that all dishes are dirty and have to be washed before each use.

10) most ingredients for cooking don't keep for more than a day or two, even in the fridge. milk, bread, veggies, leftovers, they all go bad. i think it's something about the humidity.

Vegetables I like: tomato (heartburn), onion (heartburn), garlic (no problem)

Vegetables I like, but don't really know what to do with: carrots, lettuce (can't buy small enough quantities anyway), corn, potatoes

Vegetables I don't like all that much or at all: peas, string beans, asparagus, brussel sprouts, capsicum, cabbage, eggplant, zucchini

there may exist vegetables that i forgot to mention. i may or may not like them or be able to afford them or know how to prepare them.

Comment author: Alicorn 27 June 2011 01:19:20AM *  8 points [-]
  1. Get protein from non-meat sources. Consider, in particular, eggs. Monitor the sales at your grocer of choice; if they have a free loyalty program fill out their form and take their junk mail to get in on that.

  2. See above

  3. Buy canned beans in large amounts when they are on sale. Or, consider trying to make a deal with a friend or neighbor where you split batches of beans and only have to do cooking some of the time.

  4. This should admit of self-modification. If you know your food will go off if not eaten, there is no waste or "not lasting longer" associated with eating it before that time. But perhaps you need to work around it instead...

  5. Heartburn can be medicated. If you can't afford to get that checked out or afford the meds, eat around it...

  6. I really do recommend eating, but would need to know more about the etiology of the habit before I offered advice on breaking it.

  7. Consider sharing meals with friends/neighbors. Or, get a freezer. Freezers are really useful.

  8. If you can't get a freezer, buy your veggies canned. Many veggies come that way. Cans are smallish.

  9. Consider disposable dishes, or covering your dishes with something like plastic wrap and being careful with your utensils. (Possibly expensive.) Also, note that not every use of dishes requires washing between uses, especially if you are the only user: you can use a water glass for days as long as you don't leave a lot of water standing in it; you can brush crumbs of relatively dry foods off a plate and use it again; etc. When you do have to wash dishes, soak them overnight with water and dish soap first, or at least rinse them out, to reduce the amount by which things cake on and to help give the grease a head start on dissolving.

  10. Freezers are useful. Like, a lot.

Veggies you did not mention include: miscellaneous greens such as turnip or collard, kale, spinach, green or wax beans, bamboo, peppers, artichokes, beets, water chestnuts. (All of those things exist canned.) Also, celery, celeriac, turnips, rutabagas, parsnips, miscellaneous sprouts, assorted squashes, fennel, leeks, scallions, avocados, cucumbers, broccoli, cauliflower, edamame, radishes, jicama, seaweed of various sorts. I don't know if these ones are available canned. (Seaweed has the advantage of being available dried. You can reconstitute whatever amount you desire.)

As for what to do with them: Your favorites, tomatoes, onions, garlic, carrots, corn, and potatoes (plus most of what I just mentioned) can all be put in soups, stews, pot pies, sautés and stirfries, kabobs, and curries, or just eaten by themselves cooked or not with the spices/seasonings of your choice. Google is your friend; search for [vegetable] recipe and see what pops up. If you require more specialized help, pick some likely-looking veggies and I will locate or fabricate simple preparation instructions for you!

Comment author: Wei_Dai 27 June 2011 01:59:02AM 6 points [-]
  1. Get protein from non-meat sources. Consider, in particular, eggs. Monitor the sales at your grocer of choice; if they have a free loyalty program fill out their form and take their junk mail to get in on that.

Also consider protein powder. On a per gram of protein basis, whey protein powder is only slightly more expensive than eggs, but much easier to prepare. (Assuming $25 for 5 pounds of whey protein powder, and $1 for a dozen large eggs, I get $0.0156 per gram of protein for whey, and $0.0132 per gram of protein for eggs.)

Comment author: saturn 27 June 2011 09:07:37AM *  7 points [-]

most ingredients for cooking don't keep for more than a day or two, even in the fridge. milk, bread, veggies, leftovers, they all go bad

If milk goes bad after a day or two no matter when you open it, you might have a malfunctioning refrigerator.

If milk is OK until a day or two after you open it, you might have a dangerously elevated level of airborne microorganisms.

Comment author: dyfrgi 27 June 2011 04:44:13PM 3 points [-]

Specifically regarding protein: You are probably underestimating how much protein is in many foods. Here is a brief list of foods which, if you got all of your calories from them, would give you enough protein: * Any sort of bean, including fast cooking beans such as lentils, lima beans, and peas. * Most nuts * Many dark green vegetables (e.g spinach, kale, broccoli, green cabbage) * Bread. Yes, really - there's lots of gluten in there. * Pasta. Again, lots of gluten. * Potatoes, so long as you eat the skins. Get red ones, they're easier to clean and the skins are more tender. * Quinoa (a grain).

Brown rice is close, but not quite there. So you should not worry about eating meat, it's unnecessary.

One specific dish you should consider is dal. Cooked lentils with spices. Popular in India. Lots of other things you can throw in, too, including onion, tomato, garlic. carrots, and corn. In small quantities the tomato and onion should be less likely to cause heartburn. To keep the cost of the spices down, buy from the bulk section - it can be as little as 1/10 the price of bottled spices, and you can get only however much you need. Dried lentils and spices keep for quite a long time, and it only takes 45min to prepare, in one pot (or two if you make a tarka).

When you store vegetables in the fridge, do you keep them in plastic bags? I find that helps for many green veggies in particular. I just use the bags I get them in from the store or my farmshare.

Consider shopping more like a European - buy fresh ingredients every day or every other day instead of doing one big shopping trip once a week. This will minimize your food spoilage problems.

I agree with everyone else that you should check that your fridge is functioning properly. Measure the temperature. It should be between 33 and 38 degrees F. Above 38 and I'd expect fairly high rates of spoilage.

Comment author: saturn 28 June 2011 03:06:43AM 2 points [-]

A handheld steam cleaner like this can remove food from dishes with almost no effort, and costs a lot less than a dishwasher.

Comment author: novalis 27 June 2011 04:51:16PM 2 points [-]

If your beans are taking forever to cook, are you adding salt? Adding salt will keep beans hard -- wait to add it until the beans are fully cooked.

Also, I second the suggestion to either make your fridge colder, or replace it.

Comment author: pthalo 28 June 2011 05:20:26AM 1 point [-]

the fridge isn't mine -- came with the apartment. and it's a communist era fridge (complete with Russian labeled dials), so it probably dates back to before the wall came down. i have it on medium setting and will look at acquiring a thermoter to see if that means <5°C like it should or, something ridiculous like 10°C (i think i'd notice if it was warmer than that. it feels cold to me.)

I think the beans in question are just old beans. I add salt to taste at the end.

Comment author: lavalamp 27 June 2011 12:21:08PM 2 points [-]

Based on #2 and #5, if I were you I would experiment to see if you have hypochlorhydria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorhydria). Symptoms are (ironically) basically the same as GERD. (Note: I'm not a doctor!)

Comment author: jasticE 27 June 2011 10:41:04AM *  2 points [-]

10)

eggs: can be kept uncooled for a while, very long shelf life hard-boiled, easy to prepare in small portions.

milk: do you get UHT milk? It has an uncooled shelf life of months and tends to be cheaper than fresher variants.

meat: consider smoked or dried meats (bacon, salami).

pasta: reasonably easy to prepare in smaller portions

Out of interest, where do you live that cigarettes are so much cheaper than food? One pack of cigerattes here (Germany) will buy me 2 days worth of (cheap) food.

Comment author: KPier 26 June 2011 12:43:34AM 3 points [-]

I am not signed up for cryonics.

1) I think I can save more lives by being an organ donor. 2) I can't afford it, even with life insurance. 3) If there is a Singularity, I expect it will happen before I die anyway.

I can't actually sign up until I'm 18 even if all these are refuted, but I will precommit to signing up when I'm old enough.

Comment author: Alexei 26 June 2011 04:55:17AM 6 points [-]

1) Calculate how many lives you can save with your organs. Pre-commit to donate enough money to save as many lives, on top of what you would normally want to donate.

2) Since you are under 18, I can see your problem. Your chances of dying where cryonics would be an option (read: not in an accident) are so tiny, it's probably OK to wait. But you can always take out a loan (maybe?) or borrow from someone.

3) Do you want to take that chance? I also believe that the Singularity will happen within my lifetime, but I am totally willing to pay ~$80 a month to increase the chance of my brain existing when it happens (even if it's only 1%).

Comment author: bentarm 26 June 2011 06:58:12PM *  3 points [-]

I'm afraid 1. just doesn't work, at all - if you can save more lives by being an organ donor, and you think this is the right thing to do, this is an entirely separate question from how many lives you can save by giving money to VillageReach, and I don't see how the answer to one can have a bearing on the other.

If you save thousands of lives by giving away money during your lifetime, then on the day you die, the relevant question is still: can I save more lives at the margin by being cryogenically preserved or by donating my organs? Unless you think of saving lives as some sort of competition, rather than as intrinsically a good thing to do, the answer to this question is completely unaffected by how much money you gave away when you were alive.

Edit I now realise the suggestion is to give away extra money when you die, but this just has exactly the same problem. You don't get extra money by freezing your body.

NB - I'm not saying I really believe the objection is valid, I'm just saying that your proposed solution really doesn't work.

Comment author: Normal_Anomaly 26 June 2011 07:20:56PM *  9 points [-]

Another thing to think about here: if you save lives by donating your organs, the organs will probably go to elderly people who are not signed up for cryonics, and will probably die in the next few decades regardless. So you will have saved a few decades of infirmity. On the other hand, if you are revived from cryopreservation, you will probably be revived to immortal, healthy life. So, if the Singularity/some other form of immortality does not happen until more than a few decades after your death, you can save more years, with greater average quality of life, by cryopreserving yourself.

ETA: Also, if the people your organs go to are signed up for cryonics, then getting your organs still wouldn't make that much difference to the total number of years they live.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 June 2011 02:42:18AM *  4 points [-]

1: If cryonics is appealing because it potentially saving your life, then not signing up once you have the money is effectively suicide / voluntary euthanasia. The fact that other people could be saved by your organs is true whether or not you are signed up for cryonics -- so if your life is worth less to you than 4 or 8 strangers' lives, you should commit suicide and donate your organs.

If you don't want to commit suicide to donate organs, you shouldn't want to avoid cryonics to donate organs.

2: This is not a reason not to do it, it's a reason you literally currently can't. So make more money (there are lots of other better sources of how to do this; if you want to delve down this road, reply or PM and I'll provide more resources).

3: How confident are you that it will happen before you die? Given the number of years of additional life you are buying a chance at by signing up for cryonics, the extra chance at preserving your identity and 'coming back' via cryonics may still be worth the extra cash. But that depends on the probabilities you assign to the various relevant factors (chance of singularity during lifetime & chance of cryonics resulting in extended life, mainly).

Comment author: KPier 27 June 2011 04:50:31AM 3 points [-]

1) I value my life more than the lives of 4-8 strangers, as demonstrated by the fact I haven't committed suicide to donate my organs. Based on the reading I have done so far, I can't realistically assign cryonics a greater than 10% chance of actually working, so the question is whether I value my life (discounted by a factor of 10) more than the lives of 4-8 strangers, which I don't. If Omega told me cryonics was guaranteed to work, I would sign up.

2) Making money without a high school degree, special skills, or Eliezer-level intelligence is more difficult than I think most highly-trained people realize. I'll PM you, though.

3) I would assign a very high probability to a Singularity within my lifetime; I would also say I am 85% confident that if the Singularity does not happen in my lifetime, it will not happen. If the 21st century closes without any of the advances we anticipate, that would dramatically increase my estimate that they are impossible.But I've conceded to Alexai that even discounting for all this, it is probably still worth it; if I can resolve the other issues I will sign up.

Comment author: lsparrish 30 June 2011 12:44:07AM 3 points [-]

The singularity (or the technological state we roughly mean by it) could easily depend on centuries of continued incremental research. Moore's Law is coming up against some fundamental barriers. Furthermore, it may be advisable to slow the approach of the singularity for precautionary reasons (e.g. by restricting access to the most powerful hardware), as a bad singularity is to be avoided pretty much at all costs.

Cryonics also doesn't depend directly on a singularity, just either very good (compared to today) scan/emulate tech or very good cell repair tech. These involve progress in different areas of science, so one might be a dead end whereas the other turns out to work.

Supporting cryonics as a younger person (whether by signing up or by supporting it from the sidelines) could result in earlier development of hypothermia and other related biochemical alternatives, eliminating the need for cryonics as we know it. Instead you could conceivably enter a state of hibernation as you near old age, for a few years at a time, until a cure for aging is developed.

Comment author: KPier 30 June 2011 03:27:07AM *  1 point [-]

Supporting cryonics as a younger person (whether by signing up or by supporting it from the sidelines) could result in earlier development of hypothermia and other related biochemical alternatives, eliminating the need for cryonics as we know it.

So you would recommend signing up at 16, even if my personal odds of dying now are pretty small?

Cryonics also doesn't depend directly on a singularity, just either very good (compared to today) scan/emulate tech or very good cell repair tech.

What would you estimate as the probability of developing technology that will make cryonics work without a singularity?

Comment author: handoflixue 27 June 2011 08:40:45PM *  3 points [-]

1) I think I can save more lives by being an organ donor.

There were about 6 thousand people last year in Canada who needed an organ transplant [1] and around 247 thousand deaths [2]. Of those deaths, about 1/3rd were prevented by existing donors. We'd be preventing less than 2% of all deaths in Canada if everyone got the donations they needed.

Donation is only viable in cases of brain death (~49% odds) [1], and I couldn't find any statistics on how often a donor body is actually usable (but I'd assume vastly less than 100% of those cases, since you have to die of brain death in a hospital and still have cardiac activity) All in all, there's a deficit of donors, so it's probably still helpful (unless you're a man who has had sex with another man, in which case you might not even be legally eligible; it's banned in Canada).

I think you're probably saving less than 1 life on average by being a donor. You'd probably do better to convince some friends and co-workers to sign up with, since organ donation is "low hanging fruit" (free, socially acceptable), and sign yourself up for cryonics (you can claim you've gone with the more complex "donate body to medical science" if you need a social excuse for why you're not an organ donor yourself)

If you're not doing cryonics, there's no excuse for not being an organ donor, of course, so don't use this as an excuse to wiggle out of doing one or the other! :)

[1] http://www.transplant.ca/pubinfo_orgtiss.htm [2] http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo07a-eng.htm

Comment author: MixedNuts 27 June 2011 08:45:00PM 3 points [-]

unless you're a homosexual male

Do you mean a man who has sex with men, or do they allow bisexual men? (The incidence of e.g. HIV might be different in these populations.)

(Full disclosure: I am so fucking tired of bisexual erasure I will use thread derailment and other acts of terrorism^W mildannoyanceism.)

Comment author: handoflixue 27 June 2011 08:49:52PM 3 points [-]

Men who have had sex with another man. Thanks for calling me on it; I was mimicking the standard language I see there. Unfortunately the trans/queer-erasure remains, because the legal system tries desperately to pretend everyone fits in the nice binary boxes.

Comment author: Yvain 26 June 2011 07:53:07PM *  2 points [-]

If number one is part of your true rejection, look to see if there are head-only cryonics available in your area.

Comment author: orthonormal 26 June 2011 08:58:17PM 5 points [-]

I'd thought that signing up for both organ donation and even head-only cryonics leads to battles over one's body- the necessary preparations are quite different. I'd be happy to find I'm mistaken, though.

Comment author: MBlume 27 June 2011 01:09:37AM 3 points [-]

What orthonormal said -- I was told that the circulatory system was used to get the crypopreservant into the brain and this rendered the other organs unusable.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 June 2011 05:45:15PM *  10 points [-]

I do not exercise.

(Caveat: I will refrain from taking any advice that would lead to me starting to significantly exercise until I have a diagnosis and a treatment plan of my apparent heart condition, which doesn't indicate it would be unsafe or otherwise a medically bad idea. I'd be really surprised if my doctor told me not to exercise, but in case she does I want to wait and make sure that my body is really lying to me when it says "don't do that, bad things will happen".)

Reasons (and existing known routes around each):

  • Sweat is horrible, and I overheat too easily. (Swimming gets around these; outdoor exercise in cold weather, interestingly, does not.)

  • Sunshine is horrible (and other environmental issues). (Anything indoors or at night gets around the sunshine thing. Other environmental issues are mostly limited to smelly gyms and excessively humid indoor pool facilities. Anything outdoors and at night and in nice weather gets around this.)

  • Many forms of it are financially costly (equipment, facility use). (Going for walks does not have this problem.)

  • It is boring. (When I tried jujitsu, it did not have this particular problem. Merely being able to listen to music does not solve this, although it could combine with another partial solution. If this problem is solved by simultaneously watching a movie, it has to be in a context where I can turn on subtitles, because I will not be able to reliably hear dialogue over any non-perfectly-silent form of exercise.)

Known route around all of these problems: happening to have free access to an outdoor pool which is open at night and a person who will go with me and chat while we both backstroke laps. This would be great but I don't happen to have access to a free outdoor pool that is open in the dark.

Comment author: Benquo 27 June 2011 12:41:57AM *  10 points [-]

It seems to me as if some bodyweight strength training exercises might not trigger any of these problems. I would suggest very small sets of comparatively high-load exercises, e.g. work your way up to one-legged squats, one-armed pushups, and chinups if you have a suitable thing to hang from or are willing to get a chinup bar (I sometimes do chinups on the metro). If you are interested I can give you some details on how to work your way up to these exercises, since many people are not initially strong enough to do them (I sure wasn't!).

Sweat: Short sets don't give you much of an opportunity to overheat or sweat. Also, with bodyweight exercises, you can do them at home and take a cool shower/bath immediately afterwards. (By the way, do you hate sweating, or do you hate being sweaty? I am assuming the latter for now.) You could even do the pushups in a cool bath to get some of the advantages of swimming.

Environmental Issues: You can do this at home and indoors.

Cost: Only the time investment, plus (optionally) the cost of a chinup bar.

Boring: This type of exercise does not take very long, so you won't have much time to be bored. Not very long means 5-10 minutes total, a few times a week. You don't even have to do it all in one session, you can take a minute at a time through the day.

As a bonus, strength training can make other sorts of physical activity less unpleasant, since you will be operating at much less than capacity.

Comment author: MBlume 27 June 2011 01:01:58AM 2 points [-]

I would also be interested in learning to work up to effective bodyweight exercises.

Comment author: Alexei 26 June 2011 04:44:49AM 4 points [-]

I play DDR at home (all you need is a DDR pad and a computer). It solves all the problems except the sweat. But since it's at home, I would think you wouldn't mind that as much (plus you can have a towel nearby). I find this the most convenient exercise ever, since I can do it at home, any time, and for free.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 30 June 2011 10:20:59AM *  2 points [-]

I do the Five Tibetans every morning, and they may meet these requirements.

  • They don't raise a sweat on me, except for the 5th. I can't say whether they will for you.

  • I do them indoors.

  • They are free.

  • They only take 10 minutes -- much less if you're not doing the full 21 reps of each exercise. How long does it take for you to be bored?

This isn't the only thing I do for fitness, but it does seem to have a significant effect for me. The other things I do probably don't meet your requirements: using a bicycle for transport whenever practical (sweat and sunshine), running (ditto), taiko drumming (sweat, sweat, and more sweat), lifting weights (my own, bought with money), and taking the stairs, not the lift (sweat?).

Comment author: Alicorn 30 June 2011 02:31:16PM 3 points [-]

These do not seem to violate any of my listed requirements (possible exception being sweat, but I would have to determine that empirically). So, in accordance with the exercise, I will at least try them once I know what's up with my heart problem. However, I suspect that they will be physically painful (several components of the series look like they will cause or exacerbate the sort of headache I tend to get, and forms of yoga in general that I have tried in the past were distinctly unpleasant).

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 30 June 2011 11:51:16AM 1 point [-]

I do the Five Tibetans, too, though not with utter reliability.

Notable effects: they get rid of lower back pain for me. They strengthen the muscles around my knees. I believe they're the reason I was able to fall safely when I slipped on some ice the winter before last. (Previously, when I fell on ice, I'd twist something and sprain it.)

Normally, I can do at least one of them better than usual. This cheers me up.

I'm inclined to think that by doing them slowly and/or doing fewer of them, you could avoid working up a sweat.

There's free information about the Tibetans online, but I strongly recommend The 10-Minute Rejuvenation Plan: T5T: The Revolutionary Exercise Program That Restores Your Body and Mind-- it's by a teacher who's taught 700 students, and has a good warm-up set and a lot of advice on modifying the Tibetans if you find them difficult.

Comment author: Bagricula 28 June 2011 03:20:42AM 2 points [-]

Dance in the shower?

Even fairly restrained dancing over an extended period can elevate your heart-rate and trigger many of the benefits of exercise.

If you have a shower and live in an area where cold water is provided for free, then there is no cost. Additionally, this should address your sweat issue much like swimming in a pool.

It is indoors which eliminates sunlight.

Vis-a-vie the boredom constraint. Dancing to music by itself may be a varied enough activity to keep you mentally engaged. If this is insufficient you might consider audiobooks or talk radio.

Complications:

  1. Safety. If you dance too vigorously then you may slip or injure yourself. You will know better whether this is a very likely issue. If it is, you may be able to mitigate with protective clothing (either purchased such as no slip water-shoes/socks or made from household objects; feasibility depending on your particular budget constraint and safety concerns).

  2. You may not have a sufficiently strong set of external speakers to overcome the noise of the shower. If so, you might mitigate by (1) reducing the water flow for your shower, (2) purchasing or building louder speaks (for example, build a cone out of cardboard to amplify and direct the volume.)

  3. Just cold water may be too cold for you. To mitigate either (1) add hot water (and possible add cost), (2) exercise outside the shower first to raise your body temperature, (3) acclimate yourself to colder water (this has been done by many people in the past either by necessity or due to a specific purpose such as Channel swimming).

Comment author: Swimmer963 25 June 2011 08:03:46PM 2 points [-]

Known route around all of these problems: happening to have free access to an outdoor pool which is open at night and a person who will go with me and chat while we both backstroke laps. This would be great but I don't happen to have access to a free outdoor pool that is open in the dark.

Make friends with someone who has a backyard pool and invite yourself to swim laps with them. I don't actually know where you live and what the climate is like there, but even if it's colder, you can at least swim for part of the year. Ask everyone you know if they know anyone who has a backyard pool, and invite yourself.

Ideal long-term solution: build your own backyard pool. Probably not financially feasible right now, though.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 June 2011 08:43:17PM *  4 points [-]

I live in North Carolina at the moment and the weather would be fine for swimming. I don't think I know anyone with a pool or have a good way to filter potential new friends for pool ownership (and I live in an apartment complex, so I can't just stroll around the block looking for a pool-having house to turn up at with a plate of cookies). Suggestions?

ETA: I fail. I didn't even think of asking the local meetup group if anybody in it has a pool before I posted this. (That said, since I don't drive and I don't think any of them live really close, it'd be more of an imposition than just allowing me to let myself into their backyard, but it's worth a try.)

Comment author: ShardPhoenix 28 June 2011 05:01:01AM *  -1 points [-]

My suggestion is that you learn to get over your fear of sweating. There's nothing objectively harmful about it, so it's merely a preference that can (and probably should) be changed through gradual exposure. Start slowly and work your way up. If you refuse to change your behavior in any substantial way I don't know why you're asking for advice.

Comment author: Swimmer963 28 June 2011 02:43:19PM 6 points [-]

ShardPhoenix, I believe that Alicorn has a form of autism (please correct me if I'm wrong, Alicorn.) Being sensitive to sensory stimuli and having aversions to some of them is common for people who suffer from autism, and I don't think these aversions are particularly easy to overcome. I'm guessing that Alicorn's aversion to sweating is in this category. She isn't just 'being lazy' and refusing to attempt to change a preference.

Note to Alicorn: have you ever succeeded in getting rid of a textural or other sensory aversion through gradual exposure?

Comment author: Alicorn 28 June 2011 05:59:59PM 2 points [-]

Note to Alicorn: have you ever succeeded in getting rid of a textural or other sensory aversion through gradual exposure?

My sensory issues do morph over time, but largely outside my control. The closest thing I can think of is that when I was little, I couldn't stand denim, but then I had a pair of very soft stonewashed jeans that I did like, and thereafter I was able to touch all varieties of denim comfortably. Trying to figure out how to not be bothered by such a thing on purpose would be a little like trying to rewire myself to not mind pain: surely a worthy ultimate goal, but not currently within reach for any practical purpose. It's too base-level.

Comment author: Swimmer963 28 June 2011 06:10:35PM 2 points [-]

That's what I thought. It's not a simple matter of habituation, although the fact that your liking the one pair of jeans generalized to all denim suggests it might have to do with what category your mind places different textures into, rather than just how they feel.

Has this ever happened in reverse: there was a texture/other stimulus that didn't bother you until you encountered a particularly nasty instance of it, and it generalized to all instances?

Comment author: Alicorn 28 June 2011 06:19:15PM 1 point [-]

The reverse hasn't happened quite that way, no. In general I become more, not less, tolerant over time; sometimes I have temporary episodes where something that's normally neutral is suddenly abhorrent for no obvious reason, but that passes.

Comment author: ShardPhoenix 29 June 2011 06:39:29AM *  -1 points [-]

I don't agree that we should tiptoe around someone's irrationality (and bend over backwards to try to accommodate it!) just because it has a biological cause, or because it's something associated with "our kind of people". If someone with schizophrenia came here and started posting about conspiracy theories, I don't think the schizophrenia would be a good excuse to put up with that either.

Comment author: Nick_Tarleton 29 June 2011 09:30:21PM *  5 points [-]

I think we should recognize real differences in feasibility/difficulty/painfulness of actions and actionability of advice when they exist, for biological reasons or any reasons. (Sort of like how you wouldn't expect basic epistemic rationality advice to make someone with schizophrenia sane.)

We should also recognize the predictable effects of our words on people as they are, predicted using empathy and models based on people's actual behavior, rather than what we think people should be or non-truthseeking, habitually-used, constantly-surprised models of people. (Noticing when you're using the latter sort of models is a lot of work, but possible.) This might feel like abandoning all ideas of what people should be and letting them get away with any amount of laziness, and there are potential gains that could be lost that way, but the hard-ass approach loses at least as much (while making you less likable); far better to step back, recognize and (at least temporarily) let go of affective judgments and game-theoretic impulses, and semi-honestly try to figure out what's actually going on and what gains are possible.

Comment author: Swimmer963 29 June 2011 11:55:25AM 5 points [-]

The question I would ask is, does it help Alicorn to phrase your comment the way you did: "If you refuse to change your behavior in any substantial way I don't know why you're asking for advice." That would antagonize anyone, rationalist or not. If you said that to someone with schizophrenia, the last thing it would do is cure their disease. There are medications for that...and unfortunately, I don't think there are any medications for autism yet. And if anyone is bending backwards to accommodate it, it's Alicorn herself; this is something that must be extremely annoying on a day-to-day basis. You, on the other hand, don't have to change your day-to-day life at all.

That being said, I think your original suggestion (gradual habituation) was a good one. I don't know if Alicorn's tried exactly that strategy before, and there's a possibility it might work.

Comment author: Alicorn 29 June 2011 05:34:40PM 1 point [-]

As near as I can tell from the fact that I am sometimes forced into situations where I have to deal with sweat, gradual habituation does... drumroll... nothing.

Comment author: Alicorn 28 June 2011 05:12:49AM *  3 points [-]

Your suggestion is not helpful. It relies on false assumptions, doesn't pay attention to the nature of my complaint, violates the spirit of the exercise, and is dismissive of my level of self-knowledge, and that I would respond this way was predictable based on other commenting that has happened in this thread. If you're not going to pay attention to what kind of advice I'm asking for I don't know why you're trying to give me any. (Others' recommendations have already fared better than yours, and not just because that isn't difficult to manage, so my request for advice wasn't fruitless, although it does seem to result in uninformed noise production as a side effect.)

Comment author: BillyOblivion 27 June 2011 11:59:40AM *  0 points [-]
  • Sweating is going to happen. Exercise hard, take a cool down lap and a cool to cold shower.
  • Sunshine is (and I'm saying this as someone who spent over a decade in the Goth scene, and still is into the music) absolutely critical. It does wonderful things for your body's chemistry.
  • Life costs. You may not always get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get.

Now, before you can build yourself a workout you have to have a reason for doing it. There are many combinations, but they boil down to:

1) Rehab of injuries. if this is the case you need to consult a therapist and work out exactly your regime, but I doubt it. 2) Body re-composition--commonly called "losing weight", but is more accurately called "reshaping this mess". 3) Getting stronger 4) Building Endurance (you could argue that this is a subset of 3, but in practice it's different enough)

There are some others, but they are usually either a subset (body building is really an extreme of 2 and some of 3 for example).

Once you have your goals clearly defined some of your other objections can be worked around, except possibly for the sweat thing. The one thing "we" can do is keep the workouts of high intensity (meaning short and hard (get your mind out of the gutter)) so that you don't have time to get bored, and you minimize the length of time you sweat.

This won't work if your goal is to do the Leadville 100 (http://www.leadvilleraceseries.com/page/show/309879-run-series), but if you just want nicer hips and a little thinner belly, it isn't that hard.

One suggestion--and this WILL involve sweat--is to find a 25 or (better) 35 pound kettle bell and do kettle bell swings 3 mornings a week when you first get up. Do as many as you can in 5 minutes, then take a walk around the block to cool down. Shower and go to work. This will work your legs, lower back, shoulders and abs. It won't turn you into super$GENDER but if you currently do nothing, it'll help. As you do these try to do longer and longer sets with fewer breaks. At first you'll probably do 10-20 at a time, but it's 15 minutes a week. If that's too boring for you, then you've lost anyway.

Edited to add: Here's a three minute workout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOYpU9gg1yc&

He's barely started sweating, but it'll come in a few minutes. Oh, and he's already (clearly) in shape--either that's a 50 pound bell, or he's really short :)

Comment author: Alicorn 27 June 2011 05:08:44PM 4 points [-]

Sweating is going to happen. Exercise hard, take a cool down lap and a cool to cold shower.

Not helpful.

Sunshine is (and I'm saying this as someone who spent over a decade in the Goth scene, and still is into the music) absolutely critical. It does wonderful things for your body's chemistry.

You don't have to believe me, I guess, if you think I'm lying about what things are and are not horrible for me, but if you're going to disbelieve me, maybe don't give me advice?

Comment author: BillyOblivion 29 June 2011 09:25:23AM -1 points [-]

It's not a question of belief, it's an issue of presentation.

Here is what you wrote: "Sunshine is horrible (and other environmental issues)." That is not saying "I have medical issues", it's saying (wrist to forehead) I don't LIKE going out in the SUN!

There are lots of things in life that just flat out suck. There is no way to make worthwhile gains without struggle, effort and dealing with stuff you don't like.

To put my earlier statement a completely different way, you have a choice. On one side is exercise and sweat, on the other side is where you are now. If you are happy the way you are now there is no need to exercise. Otherwise you're going to need to sweat, the choice you then get to make is then a matter of intensity and duration.

Physical exercise causes muscles to use either blood sugar or fat to get the muscles to contract. This is an exothermic reaction causing the muscles to heat up. Exercise sufficient to cause physiological changes causes the muscles to heat up enough to cause sweat. You don't notice this when swimming because it's constantly being washed away.

There is no big red fucking easy button that gets you magic results. There are shorter paths to a solution, depending on your goals (for example if you PURELY want to lose weight you can do things like intermittent fasting, low carb diets and ice baths), but you asked about exercise.

If you have physical issues with sun then the appropriate thing to say is "I have $DISEASE" which prevents me from spending lots of time outside". Being light skinned with a family propensity to Melanoma is not a reason to avoid the sun, being light skinned with a family propensity to Squamous Cell cancer IS a reason to take precautions, especially if that family tendency is towards the cancer going metastatic.

Now that we have more information we can work with something. You don't have to completely avoid the sun, you just have to limit your exposure (duration, clothing) to it and do things to minimize the effects of it (cartinoid consumption, vitamin A with the D etc.). Yes, it takes mountain biking in the Australian Outback off the table, but the sweating issue and your location take that off the table anyway. However the cheapest form of exercise is walking, and if we can somehow dispose of your sweating issues there are walking protocalls that will get you SOME gains, if they're the sort of gains you're looking for (again you haven't stated any goals other than "to exercise", which is vague enough to be meaningless).

There are some diseases that have sweating as a symptom, but it's unlikely you have those. I've spent a lot of time reading about and investigating exercise and diet, but very little on the sweat side of things, mostly because I just accepted that I sweat a lot more than most people given a particular workload. I have a cow-orker who runs ultra-marathons. He is COLD when the temperatures hit ~70 degrees. I wear shorts down into the upper 30s (with a sweater and a hat). He can run in 90-95 degree heat with minimal sweat--he intends to run the badwater at some point--I used to ride a bicycle to work in 0 (f) weather and SWEAT on the way in. This is a normal part of human variability.

Again the issue is how you deal with it. UnderArmour's "Heat Gear" fits close to the body, provides some UV protection and does a decent job of moving the sweat out from your skin. Two or three of these shirts in conjunction with some sweatbands to keep the sweat down on your face and hands and for what is called a "High Intensity Training" or "High Intensity Interval Training" can go a long way towards meeting your goals, whatever they may be.

Realistically though just "man up" and be uncomfortable for 20 minutes 3 times a week. Just going doing that will be a gain in your life.

The Austism thing (I presume from your writing you're down on the functional aspergers end of things) provides a mostly psychological stumbling block. Austists generally have a degree of anxiety about change beyond what normal people face. Examine your feelings about changing your routine, stepping out of your comfort zone and fixing what you may find to be broken.

Comment author: MixedNuts 29 June 2011 01:25:56PM 11 points [-]

I wish to make the world a place where "Sunshine and sweating feel awful, so I'm not taking your advice" elicits the same reaction as "Putting my hand on a hot stove feels awful, so I'm not taking your advice", rather than being told to man up and being psychanalyzed by strangers.

I'm going to start with the subset of the world named Less Wrong.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 29 June 2011 03:35:35PM 3 points [-]

Well put!

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 29 June 2011 03:25:38PM 3 points [-]

Too Loud, Too Bright, Too Fast, Too Tight is a very interesting book about sensory defensiveness-- having trouble, sometimes serious trouble, with sensory experiences that don't bother most people. It's correlated with autism, but isn't the same thing, and is sometime misdiagnosed as autism, neuroticism, or lack of willpower.

There are people who specialize in helping with sensory defensiveness. They are cleverly camouflaged as occupational therapists, so they are unlikely to be found.

Comment author: zaogao 29 June 2011 11:35:20PM *  1 point [-]

" I wish to make the world a place where "Sunshine and sweating feel awful, so I'm not taking your advice" elicits the same reaction as "Putting my hand on a hot stove feels awful, so I'm not taking your advice" "

This would be nice. Now when I undertake this rejection challenge and come up with a reason for why I'm are not doing x-action, I can compare that reason to a hardwired physiological reaction. I will then feel satisfied that I am not doing (x-activity) for a good reason that I cannot change, because one surely cannot be expected to put their hand on a hot stove. In this way I will feel satisfied that I am in my current position for a good reason, and can happily fall back into acceptance.

Comment author: zaogao 29 June 2011 11:45:00PM 1 point [-]

And Alicorn, I don't know the particular nature of your aversion to sunshine, and maybe it is deeply hardwired like most people's aversion to a hot stove, so I am not speaking to you in particular. All I am saying is that reasons to not do something come in different strengths and in with different amounts of permanence. There are some dislikes that are able to be overcome through repeated effort, such as talking to strangers or eating vegetables. There are dislikes that can be overcome through mindfulness, (I will start this essay because of how it fits into my long term goals), or through environment (I will start this essay at a quiet Starbucks) or, my personal favorite, through chemical means ( I will start this essay once I finish this bottle of Laphroaig.) Maybe I misread MixedNuts statement and he/she was merely saying that for some people, sunshine and pain aversion are essentially the same, which I could buy. All I'm saying is I think there is a need to iterate this exercise through each of your reasons for not doing activity-x in the hope you can either find fundamental issues (putting your hand on a hot stove) or issues that can be resolved (working out in a walk in refrigerator.)

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 30 June 2011 03:45:33AM 9 points [-]

I think this conversation could use a dose of alternate perspective, and this seems like as good of a spot to drop it as any; zaogao, this is not directed at you personally.

LessWrong as a community makes a point, a lot of the time, of accepting a rather large amount of variance in its members' values. Except, some of us seem to be better than others at noticing when values-variance is relevant to the conversation at hand. It seems to me that a failure to notice that that's relevant is the bulk of the problem, here.

Alicorn has made it pretty clear, as far as I can see: Given the choice between a lifestyle in which she sweats regularly, and a lifestyle where she's less fit and more prone to health problems, she really does prefer the latter - that's what her values specify. She's not in denial about it, she's not complaining about having to make the choice, she's not making drama. All she's doing is describing the situation, pointing out the options she knows about, and asking if anyone knows of options that she's missed. This shouldn't be a problem, as far as I can tell: Looking for third (or fourth, or fifth) options is a very LessWrong kind of thing to do. But even if we collectively decide that we don't want to devote resources to this kind of concrete discussion of specific cases, the respectful-of-values-differences thing to do is to say that, not try to shame her for having the values she does.

It might also be worth noting that this kind of thing contributes to LW turning into an echo chamber. If we can't trust each other to stay respectful and on-topic about values differences that don't significantly affect anything beyond a single user's life, how can we trust each other with values differences that do affect other things?

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 29 June 2011 02:26:42PM 1 point [-]

Exercise can be fun if your brain is wired in a certain way, but needing to basically pointless busywork for physical maintenance is still stupid. There might be some entertaining flareups of cognitive dissonance from people who like to view being a diligent exerciser as a terminal value once there's technology for keeping the body in excellent working order without doing pointless stuff that makes you sweat. For instance.

Also, how come no-one talks about different people probably having quite a bit different endorphin reactions to exercise? It's pretty likely that they exist, but people still act like they are good exercisers because they make better choices as rational actors, not because it gets their brain pumped full of happy juice.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 29 June 2011 03:29:12PM 2 points [-]

How difficult would it be for you to learn how to be gently encouraging? Could it be worth the trouble?

Comment author: Bagricula 28 June 2011 05:41:57AM 1 point [-]

What about practicing balance?

You don't need to buy a special balance board or exercise ball for it. You can just use any board on a pivot of some sort...say a plywood board on a solid rubber ball (depends on your weight).

Balance will protect you well into old age and practicing it should strengthen your leg joints, abdominals, and lower back, as well as forcing you to be more aware of your body's position, movement, breathing, etc.

For entertainment, you can listen to music or an audiobook.

As for sweating/comfort it is definitely on the less strenuous side of things and can be done indoors with air conditioning (though this may be an expense you don't want to incur).

Comment author: Bagricula 28 June 2011 06:42:40AM 1 point [-]

Alternative balance activity:

Just stand on one foot and try twisting your torso from one side to the other or from from to back.

If this is too easy, carry a heavy object like a thick book. If this is unwieldy, try soup cans.

Vary your angular momentum by practicing torso twists with your arms out or your arms in or with varying weights.

Try the same while standing on the ball of your foot.

Try while reaching above your head, to the side, et cetera.

Comment author: Swimmer963 25 June 2011 08:08:06PM 5 points [-]

I should go to more parties and events, and introduce myself to more people, so that I can 'network' and build a base of contacts who might be useful in the future. People who tell me this: my boyfriend.

Reasons I don't: a) I don't actually have all that much fun at parties, compared to the amount of fun I have, for example, singing in church. b) Parties with people in my age group almost always involve alcohol, and it's extremely boring to be the only sober person at a party, and alcohol is expensive. c) I am a morning person, emphatically not a night person. I can occasionally stay up late reading or writing, activities that I can get caught up in, but in social settings I start yawning and getting sleepy and boring around 11 pm. The last thing I want to be doing at 11 pm is getting ready to go to a club. d) I'm not a good dancer and I feel self-conscious in clubs. e) I have a busy enough schedule already.

Comment author: Alexei 26 June 2011 04:41:48AM 12 points [-]

I think you are thinking about the wrong kinds of parties. In fact, you are solving the wrong problem. If your goal is to network and meet people, there are much much better ways of doing that than going out to parties. Go to local clubs/meet-ups (chess, book, poker, sewing, toast masters, etc...). Meet more people through other people you already know, and through workplace if you have a job. You said you like going to church, do activities with those people. You'll meet new people there. See what fun things they do. Go to those things too.

Comment author: Swimmer963 26 June 2011 12:31:16PM 9 points [-]

I probably am solving the wrong problem...in fact, I'm solving someone else's problem. I'm solving the problem that my boyfriend likes going to parties and meeting people, and thinks that networking is an indispensable part of university life, and feels his social status increase if he can bring his girlfriend along, suitably dolled up, and show her off. Except that I consistently mess with his plans by not wanting to dress up and by not enjoying parties all that much. I'm pretty happy with the current rate at which I'm meeting people through work (I work at a pool and know pretty much every member who comes in during mornings), school, church, activities like taekwondo, and LessWrong meetups. Granted, most of them aren't my age, but compared to older people, people my age tend to be less interesting anyway.

Comment author: Benquo 27 June 2011 12:47:17AM *  10 points [-]

It seems like giving your boyfriend what he wants and spending time in a way that is enjoyable to you are things that could be optimized separately.

For example you could show up briefly, armed with an excuse to leave early, at some time you determine in advance. That way he gets to show you off and you don't have to stick around at a party that bores you.

Comment author: MBlume 28 June 2011 01:28:38AM 2 points [-]

I really do not think it's especially likely that this is a good solution to your problem, and I only mention it because it is one that people tend to reliably refrain-from-thinking-of...

But it does sound like breaking up with your boyfriend and finding one with social preferences more similar to yours would solve most of the named problems.

Comment author: TrE 25 June 2011 08:42:43PM 0 points [-]

a) What are you doing at parties, then? You seem to do something wrong. b) Go to a party where not everyone drinks, often quite a few persons will drive home so they won't drink. Alternatively, drive other people home. c) You can shift your sleep schedule by going to sleep 15 minutes (or more) later each day. It's a quite simple mechanism, and it works. d) Simple: attend a dancing course! It's a simple yet valuable skill, worth the money and the time. Alternatively, you could watch tutorials on youtube. e) You don't. You don't want to tell me that you're busy with such other things every single evening. If that really is the case, take one of those activities and either let it fall or do it somewhen (I'll just use this word, I don't care whether it's proper English) else.

Now, because that was your true rejection, it's party time for you. Let your friend take you to a party, and have a good time.

Comment author: Swimmer963 25 June 2011 08:54:34PM 3 points [-]

I do have fun at some parties, for example pool staff parties with people I've known for years, where all the gossip is relevant to me and I get all the in-jokes. I simply am not extroverted enough to enjoy going to parties where nearly everyone is a stranger, and I have to keep up with my boyfriend's manic introducing-himself-to-people pace. So the real solution is to track down more parties where I'll know the people well, but that reduces the number of people I'll meet, which according to my boyfriend is the point of going to parties.

Your dancing comment is very relevant. I should. I'm currently going swing-dancing once a week, and I should really take a couple of hip-hop classes or something. It would help a lot and I might actually enjoy clubbing then. I do like most of the music they play in clubs.

And no, I'm not busy with things every single evening, but there are an awful lot of days each week when I leave the house first thing in the morning and don't get home until 9 pm, after having been on my feet or in the pool all day and then biking halfway across the city. Yeah, technically my Saturday nights are free, but I'm exhausted, and when I'm exhausted I get antisocial.

Comment author: TrE 25 June 2011 09:06:45PM 2 points [-]

So then I was successful at defying d)? That's a start, although I realize that I know your life far worse than you do, which is rather obvious. Your day might be to full, but I can't reliably judge this from afar.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 June 2011 08:45:09PM 1 point [-]

Shifting sleep schedules around by going to sleep later each day does not work for people who are strongly aligned to certain sleep schedules.

Comment author: Swimmer963 25 June 2011 08:48:51PM 3 points [-]

Or for people who work 6 am shifts multiple times per week, and start work at 9 am the rest of the time. I could conceivably stay up til 2 am partying if I stayed up til 2 am every night and didn't have to get up until 10 every morning, but the real problem is that I can't get up at 5 am on a Friday morning and be able to stay up late on a Friday night. I could conceivably change this by working fewer opening shifts and more evening shifts, but I like getting up early and then having my evenings at home.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 June 2011 04:28:08AM 2 points [-]

I would someday like to be a writer. In no particular order, the reasons I don't typically write.

  • I'm currently a graduate student, and while my research/teaching isn't all-consuming yet, it does take considerable amounts of time.
  • When I do sit down and try to write something, it is usually not very original. For example, a couple weeks ago I wrote "A crow shook down on me". I also tend to overwrite things, as evidenced in that writeup.
  • I have a history of starting large projects and giving up after a day or two -- for example, I've tried NaNoWriMo twice, with less than 5% success both times.

Disclaimer: Typical anti-akrasia advice, as seen on LW and perhaps other places, has generally been unhelpful. Writing isn't close enough to being one of my primary goals for me to prioritize it the way I prioritize research.

Comment author: [deleted] 01 July 2011 04:04:27AM 7 points [-]

In accordance with my commitment below, here are the ten ideas I came up with.

  1. An introduction to real analysis using Python.

  2. Gurren Lagann fanfiction where characters die left and right for being idiots. (Thanks chelz!)

  3. Semi-realistic Solar System space opera. Moral horizon-hopping protagonist reclaims humanity's drive toward space.

  4. An argument against mathematical platonism.

  5. An explanation of the taxonomy of birds.

  6. A follow-up to the quantum physics sequence.

  7. A type theory-based explanation of tensor analysis and differential geometry.

  8. An argument against the usefulness of Rawls' "veil of ignorance".

  9. An essay on romantic aesthetics, using Rand as a starting point but blowing away her chaff.

  10. A review/update of Buckminster Fuller's Critical Path.

Comment author: Alicorn 30 June 2011 05:07:37AM 6 points [-]

When you do write, what prompts it? Find out what the impetus is and then arrange to have lots of it. (Fo instance, mine is attention, so I have lots of beta readers and publish everything I write on the Internet.) NaNoWriMo isn't the ideal writing environment for everyone.

Write down ideas for things to write about as you have them. Pick the best/most original/etc. the next time you have an opportunity to write. If you are short on time and find that you tend not to be pleased with the ideas you use, this is probably more workable than just writing about everything you think of.

Do one pass of editing on each thing you write, after letting it sit without looking at it for at least a few days. This will give you practice at drawing your attention to things you find "overwritten" after the fact; hopefully you'll eventually nip those patterns in the bud before they make it into your writing.

Generic advice that doesn't address anything specific you said: Do not delete things you write, ever. If you are tempted to do this, bury them somewhere in the deepest recesses of your computer, but never delete.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 June 2011 05:21:06AM 1 point [-]

I'm impressed by your honesty wrt motivations.

I pre-commit to writing down tomorrow (because right now drunk and sleepy) a list of ten ideas about things to write about, and within a week follow up and write about the best. The first step should take at most a couple hours; the second probably a day for a first draft. That seems reasonable given my current workflow.

Comment author: Alicorn 30 June 2011 05:29:35AM *  2 points [-]

I'm not sure what there is to be impressed about... perhaps you interpreted me as saying that I write to get attention? That's not why; attention is merely what allows me to write for other reasons (which are mostly: because it is itchy to have ideas unrealized). Without anyone paying attention to me I will still be itchy but won't actually write anything before going off and doing something else.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 June 2011 05:53:22AM 1 point [-]

Oh. Nevermind then.

Comment author: diegocaleiro 29 June 2011 11:31:46AM 2 points [-]

Something I wish I did at least as much as recommended (in Brazil, which is, say, half USA's recommendation): Worry about $$$

I avoid this worry because: 1) Getting $$ seems boring compared to going to the movies, reading less wrong, creating transhumanist charities. 2) It seems to be a lottery, where the few get a lot. Not being motivated for this decreases my odds. So my odds are really low. 3) Grown up as the son of a motivated money-maker, and have seen what it takes to get his share. Not willing in the least to pay the price. 4) Not an ambitious individual, never want to live alone (prefer with friends), or have kids, dislike expensive fashion. 5) Feel in control of my time now, wouldn't if working. 6) Have a lot of knowledge of philosophy, psychology, and a natural tendency for speaking to audiences, would waste all those talents if went to commerce, banking, industry, or anything that will pay me more than one third my parent's household income 7) Never had an emergency situation which would cost too much that I could not afford 8) Seems reasonable to assume that an extrovert individual with a degree from the country's best university IQ ~150 would be able to acquire money as soon as the need really comes, so no reason to do it in advance, just like no reason to have arthritis or alzheimer in advance.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 01 July 2011 04:17:48PM 5 points [-]

Strategies for dealing with money seem to me to come in two varieties: Have as much income as possible and don't worry much about the outgo, or have as little outgo as possible and don't worry much about the income. It seems to me like you'd prefer the latter, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

It is a less popular kind of choice, and one that many people don't really understand, so you might always have to deal with people objecting to it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just means that they don't understand it, or possibly that they're jealous. ;)

Googling 'frugality' should get you some good advice about making that kind of lifestyle work.

I also suggest testing your assumption in #8 that you can easily make money whenever you need it by doing so in order to set some money aside in case of an emergency as in issue #7. This is actually more about #8 than #7, though - basing your lifestyle on an untested assumption like that isn't wise, and if (as I expect, actually) the assumption turns out to be accurate, having the experience of finding a job (or whatever) when you don't have an emergency will be useful if you have to find one (or whatever) when you do.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 June 2011 02:31:12PM 3 points [-]

On: 4&7) How old are you? Is it likely your preference for having kids/living arrangements etc will change over time? Do note that even if your own preferences for living with friends remain constant, they may want to go the traditional family, home route. Also medical emergencies etc are of course rarer for the young than for the elderly.

8) This is a reasonable assumption, but be aware that if you are looking for a 9-5 job with a steady salary later in life you will need to explain the gap years to the recruiter. Also, if the need comes in the form of an emergency, you may not be able to acquire money fast enough.

Perhaps you need to investigate ways to monetise your talents instead of thinking about a traditional job that pays you a lot more than you need.

Comment author: Swimmer963 28 June 2011 09:00:25PM 2 points [-]

I should learn to drive and get my license.

Reasons I don't:

  1. I originally took driving lessons in grade 12, when they were competing for my time with homework, working at the pool, scholarship applications, and actual sleep. Being in control of a large, potentially dangerous vehicle, and being clumsy with slow reaction times, was already stressful for me to begin with, and I think I developed a "driving=stress" association that causes mild anxiety every time I think about it, and major anxiety when I actually get in a car.

  2. I don't live at home at the moment and have no easy access to a car to practice in. (I will be living at home in the fall.)

  3. My parents' current car is a standard transmission. When I started learning over 2 years ago, it was in an automatic transmission car. My mother and I are both dubious that I can handle the multitasking involved without becoming freaked out.

  4. Paying for lessons would involve spending money. I hate spending money.

  5. I don't think I'll ever enjoy driving unless I do it enough to overcome the anxiety, and I probably won't for various reasons. (Cars and insurance and gas are expensive, bad for the environment, I can get more exercise if I bike, etc.) So it drops on my priority list.

Comment author: handoflixue 29 June 2011 08:38:29PM 3 points [-]

Long-winded address to #1 and #3:

I'm currently learning to drive, and I've found breaking it down in to steps has helped a lot. "Learn to drive" is a crazy insane task that I could never do, after all :)

I started by addressing your #3, since the only person I had available to teach me was a friend with a manual. We spent a couple hours in an empty lot, braking and turning off the car any time someone drove even vaguely near me, just starting and stopping the car and getting used to the clutch.

Once that was done, we found a corporate lot, where we could wind around buildings and generally do things slightly more dynamic than "start and stop" while still not having any traffic to worry about (we did this on a weekend evening). That got me more comfortable with steering, handling the shift between 1st and 2nd gear, and more experience with the clutch. Since it was mostly 10-20 MPH, and a fairly empty lot, there wasn't a lot of risk. I also didn't hesitate to just slam the break and stop the car if I ever got uncomfortable.

Between these two, I had an environment where I could safely freak out while still learning the skill. Once I was actually on the road, I was a lot more comfortable because I knew I could at least do the basics, and about the worst I'd generally result in is another driver being a few minutes late to wherever they were going. Practicing on weekend evenings also helps, because generally people aren't in a hurry then, and traffic is lighter.


2) This one solves itself come Autumn and you don't seem to be particularly eager. Wait until then :)

4) Can your parents or a friend spend a couple hours a week teaching you? I will say that a calm instructor is very useful in helping to dissolve the "driving = stress" reaction. I only practice an hour or two each week, and it works fine for me. Generally we drive until I get exhausted or over-stressed, and then I hand the keys over and she drives us back :)

5) My main reason for driving is simply so that I can offer to do it on long trips and in emergencies. I occasionally go on 12+ hour drives with friends, and I'd feel better being able to do some of the work for them, especially when it's obvious that they're exhausted. Learning to drive is useful even if you don't do it often, and you don't have to enjoy it for it to be a useful skill.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 June 2011 11:38:00AM 1 point [-]

Note that a driving instructor provides you with a practice car.

I don't drive much now, and I'm so clumsy that I've wondered if it's pathological... but I learned to drive over the summer I was 18, paid for my own lessons, and got my license. I would have thought I could never do it, but it's very possible.

Spending money isn't really awful, I've learned over time. Spending more than you can afford is awful. But if you have a cushion of savings that you haven't been using, and you spend it down a little for a one-time investment in your human capital, it's not actually that bad. Attaching an emotional valence to how many dollars you have in the bank gets in the way of living.

Comment author: Barry_Cotter 28 June 2011 09:29:58PM 1 point [-]

tl;dr You can overcome stress, multitasking and a manual transmission, given sufficient time and lessons. Consider just not doing anything about it til the fall, but making firm, detailed plans for once you get home. If you feel you should learn to drive it's probably worth the money, just for the extra possibilities it opens up to you.

  1. It sounds like you still have a ton of competing demands on your time. You need to prioritise learning to drive so that you practice regularly. As far as clumsy with slow reaction times goes, I'm 27, I have Asperger Syndrome with mild sensory processing difficulties and high base stress levels and I have less than four months driving experience, definitely under 70 hours driving experience and I may have my licence by Friday and will within two months barring epic failure.

  2. Just wait until the fall.

  3. Get a good driving instructor and you can do it. If you can automatise the sequences of involved, complicated motions involved in competitive swimming you can learn to drive a manual transmission. Your description of lifeguarding competitively, particularly how you were well below average when beginning but became competent over time also strongly suggests to me that you can get past getting freaked out.

  4. How much do you have saved? How much is being able to drive worth to you? What's the just better use of the funds, the just worse use and the current best use?

  5. Ditto, but, um, I'm not under the impression that most Canadian cities are much friendlier to pedestrians, cyclists or public transport users than in the US. If you ever want to live in the suburbs, ever, it'd be worth it

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 28 June 2011 09:21:35PM 1 point [-]

With regards to the stress, enjoyment, and environmental issues: Consider that knowing how to drive doesn't obligate you to have a lifestyle where you do so regularly. This also covers some of the financial objection, too: I've heard that it's cheaper to have a generally non-driving lifestyle and rent a car (possibly through a car-sharing program) when you need to than to have a lifestyle that involves driving on a regular basis.

Comment author: diegocaleiro 28 June 2011 08:22:28PM 2 points [-]

I do not allocate enough time in making the world a better place. In particular, and I will stress only this most important particular, I do not get around doing the bureocratic things that precede execution. I plan, and stop after planning. Ex: I wrote a book but am not getting it published Everyone who meets me think I am awesome and wants to join my project, but my projects don't last enough time before the next project takes over my mind I can't pay with my money for loads of utilitarian stuff because I don't feel safe donating so I'm not actually outputting the stuff I should (websites for instance)

MY AVOIDING conditions: 1) There are always better experiential options available instead of bureaucracy. From reading Less Wrong, to going out with girlfriend, or a pic-nic, or playing card-games, watching how I met you mother. Reading Cognitive Neuroscience papers. All those are way more fun, easier, than actually getting things done 2) I'm not safe putting money into stuff that is not me because I do not alief that I am able to acquire money. Being the son of a successful engineer and having chosen to study philosophy/psychology and not buying in to the christian/American morality of work as a value in itself, I hardly think I'll want to make enough money to pay for me. Even if investing little into Utilons is something I really believe would be good for the world. 3) My life has been generally great over the course of the last quarter century, and it does not seem to be the case that going through any bureocracy was required for that. Now that my parents are stepping away, and money is being drained away, this is not the case anymore, but this is not something I alief, only something I barely know.

Comment author: Swimmer963 28 June 2011 08:45:22PM 4 points [-]

Being the son of a successful engineer and having chosen to study philosophy/psychology and not buying in to the christian/American morality of work as a value in itself, I hardly think I'll want to make enough money to pay for me.

Wow. I had a surprisingly strong emotional response against that. I'm still trying to parse why, and it probably says more about my psychology than about yours. I think it boils down to the following beliefs that I seem to have: a) everyone should try their best to be self-sufficient, otherwise the weight of freeloaders will drag the rest of society down, b) anything can happen to anyone at any time and if you're not trying your best to be prepared, you're an idiot. Etc. Again, I'm not trying to attack you in any way. Your system sounds reasonably healthy, as long as you can afford it financially. (I know people who are similar but who really can't afford it, and that may be coloring my perception.)

That probably means that my mind works sufficiently differently from yours that my suggestions may not work, but I'll try my best.

a) Focus on the good feeling of having gotten something done, rather than the negative feeling of starting something that seems like harder work than the 'better experiential options'. Over time, you might find that the satisfaction of having accomplished something is so addictive that it bleeds through into 'I want to start more projects and finish them, so I can have the fulfillment of having finished them.' Of course there are things that are easier than finishing difficult projects, but you might find that after a while, they aren't as fun because you become conscious of how little you've accomplished at the end of doing them. That being said, that's how my psychology works. Yours may require other tactics to get it to cooperate.

b) Your life may have been great for the past 25 years. Don't focus on your life. Making the whole world a better place is not about you. In fact, plenty of people who've tried to make the world a better place, and sometimes succeeded, have suffered in the process. It's not about you. According to utilitarian moral theories, every person's happiness is of equal weight. If the stress of putting off spontaneous, fun activities to finish projects makes you a teeny bit less happy, but it makes just 2 other people much happier, than the total sum of happiness in the world is greater and you can be at ease, having accomplished your goal.

Comment author: diegocaleiro 29 June 2011 10:47:14AM 1 point [-]

NOTE: This is not bragging, I really really want to change many of my ways and think part of this info is relevant to that. Trying to give you a bit more precision about my intentions and perceptions. 1) I'm very good at finishing stuff if it is social/sexual/friendship stuff, or reading, or writing essays. 2) What I am not good is what requires feedback, things like finding an agent for book publishing, writing a good paper even though I am from Brazil and no one would revise it, or pretending to be interested in a low-impact master thesis. Now, to your comments: Sure man, having gotten something done is great, now the kinds of things that really make me shine inside for having done them: Creating new friendships between two similiar people, giving presentations on transhumanism or philosophy and being high regarded, seducing women whom I'm likely to love, winning in intelectual games, and more than everything, being regarded, after planning an event, as a person who really takes the fact that we only live once and thus ought to savour every moment seriously. I've been told that I'm the person who most changed their lives by at least five people. I've optimized for being considered awesome by those who know me little. These things, I like the feeling of having done. Now if you ask me about how good I feel about having written a book on Dan Dennett, about having writen three unpublished philosophical articles, or about having caused 5 people to take immensely seriously the possibility of dedicating themselves to transhumanism/singularity/utilitarianism, I would be ridiculously lying to say that it makes me happier than, say, reading less wrong replies about my comments.

Comment author: Swimmer963 29 June 2011 11:47:37AM 2 points [-]

So basically, what you're saying is that you get satisfaction from doing things that give you fairly immediate rewards (being considered awesome) from people. If I guess correctly, you are probably quite extroverted and like being around people. (This is fairly rare on LessWrong, and it isn't the case for me.) A possible solution would be to try to tie those things you don't get as much satisfaction from (writing a book, writing philosophy articles, etc) to getting respect and having people think you are awesome. If you can think of a way to do that, I'm guessing it would help.

I would be ridiculously lying to say that it makes me happier than, say, reading less wrong replies about my comments.

Like I said. Making the world a 'better place' is not necessarily about making just yourself happier. (Though I haven't done a huge amount on that front either.)

Comment author: Armok_GoB 27 June 2011 11:04:03AM *  2 points [-]

EDIT: decided i had revealed a lot more abaut myself in this thread and since it's no longer active I'm redacting a lot of stuff.

I should have more IRL social contact, especially in some larger group.

1) (this is the main one) There is none to have any social contact WITH. If not for the very low prior I might think there simply isn't a single interesting person within a 100 mile radius from here. I don't think I could say I live in the middle of nowhere, but it certainly feels like it. Maybe it's unreasonable to expect the same quality as online in a much smaller search space, but being around people you can't respect as somehting more than dull tools just isn't socially satisfying, when I know I could be online and chat with actual PERSONS. An LW meetup or convention for somehting I'm a fan of is somehting I'd jump at, but nothing even close to that never happen around here and probably never will.

2) I have psychological issues that I do not wish to discus in detail, but the end result is #REDACTED#

3) For various reasons setting of a few hours to go somewhere is inconvenient, and #REDACTED#

Comment author: handoflixue 27 June 2011 06:26:58PM 5 points [-]

There is none to have any social contact WITH.

It would help to know approximately where, geographically, you are. I hear people in west coast US say that all the time, because it's just plain difficult to figure out how to find interesting people if you're not a natural extrovert. I don't really know any other portion of the world, but I'd assume that it's very rarely true that there really aren't any interesting people around.

I probably need some kind of person who already knows me well to pull me out

Speaking from my own personal experience, with my own personal issues, which are totally not your issues: There are really cool people out there who are safe to be yourself around. If you can find them, then (a) you have someone you don't need to worry about being strange around and (b) they can then help you navigate larger groups.

If you live in the right city, you can probably find groups of 10-20 people that don't mind you. I've found a few gatherings of 100+ where I can get away with being myself, but those are usually annual music festivals, geeky conventions, etc..

Depending on the issues, it may also be more likely than you think that you can learn to function socially despite it. I've developed high-functioning abilities despite three different psychological issues that can impair me. Part of it is just recognizing my good days and having people close enough to make impulsive plans with. Part of it has been finding weekly gatherings where I can flake out as needed and no one minds, because the group is large. Part of it is a lot of practice. And, unfortunately, part of it is just being privileged to have been dealt a higher-functioning hand in the first place, which not everyone gets. But if you can handle online social, I'd guess there's good odds you can learn to handle face-to-face :)

Comment author: Armok_GoB 27 June 2011 11:10:31PM *  2 points [-]

Sweden. Anyone who live anywhere in the US have it EASY. I'm not sure what my extroversion stat is, I think it might be context sensitive.

REDACTED

I don't live in any city. And I don't live even remotely near the right city.

REDACTED

Comment author: MixedNuts 28 June 2011 08:40:25AM 7 points [-]

Herre gud, du bor hundra mil från civilisationen!

I'm moving to Stockholm in a few months. How long does it take to go from Stockholm to where you live? (I don't have a car, but I'm willing to take a ridiculously convoluted series of trains then walk for a couple hours (more if not snowy).)

Given your issues, I recommend associating with other neuroatypical people and various weirdos. We're better at handling unusual problems, won't despise you for ridiculous reasons (in particular, will handle murderous tendencies as a danger that needs routing around, not a reason to shun you), are used to questioning everything, and benefit from helping each other.

Comment author: EvelynM 27 June 2011 05:31:25PM 3 points [-]

I've noticed that some varieties of interesting people (programmers, writers, painters, composers) like to get away from their regular routine to work on projects. They sometimes get invited to retreat centers, which are in remote areas, where they work on their projects, and get housing and regular meals.

Do you have the resources to invite interesting house guests for brief project visits?

Comment author: Bagricula 28 June 2011 07:09:20AM 2 points [-]

You've provided a lot of useful information towards coming to possible paths to the goal you've posed.

I've a few more questions mainly around the strictness of your constraints that I hope will clarify the space of reasonable solutions.

I'm also trying to point towards a profile for what you consider the boundaries of an interesting person as well as easy heuristics for filtering to find these people.

Regarding (1):

Can you provide some elaboration around what you mean by an "interesting person?"

What heuristics do you currently use to determine whether a person is interesting?

Generally how long does your evaluation period last?

Regarding (2):

In the past, what kind of traits unify people that know you well and whom you would feel comfortable pulling you out if you were acting strangely?

In the past, have any of these people not stand out in a crowd? If so, do these people share traits that are different from the larger group of people who've known you well above?

Regarding (3):

How strict is this constraint i.e. how far would you be willing and able to travel on a regular (say weekly?) basis for face-to-face social interaction? The answer could be 0...in which case all social counter-parts would have to travel to you.

Is it possible to get into town via public transit such as a bus or train? Do you know anyone (apart from your mom) nearby who might be willing to drive you into town? For those people who are on the margin in your belief of their willingness, have you tried asking them to test the proposition?

How strict a constraint is your psychological problem with breaking routine? Are we talking no behavior modification on your part, and so simplifying the question to finding people who're willing to come to you / alter their behavior for you? Or are you open to exploring routine breaking as a means towards this end?

Comment author: Dorikka 25 June 2011 12:56:00PM *  1 point [-]

I think this should be discussion level.

Comment author: Kevin 25 June 2011 01:30:58PM 26 points [-]

Disagree! Less Wrong needs more meme-y posts like this. Longness is not an inherent virtue.

Comment author: AmagicalFishy 27 June 2011 03:37:35PM 1 point [-]

I agree with you, Kevin.

Comment author: falenas108 27 June 2011 09:47:28PM 1 point [-]

Working slower to avoid mistakes. (I don't want to, I'm just told I should.)

  1. I've only had one person who was able to legitimately judge my work (at an internship), and my work/mistake ratio was not unreasonably high.
  2. There is evidence to suggest that the person giving this advice trying to justify to herself how I can get the work done far faster than she could, although my opinion on that could be personal bias.
  3. There is someone checking over all my work, so even when I do make a mistake it is caught without becoming a serious issue.
  4. The only way I would be working slower is checking over all my entries before I submit them, which would just be duplicating the job mentioned in 3.
Comment author: AdeleneDawner 28 June 2011 12:32:22AM 2 points [-]

Unless the person complaining is the person who checks your work, or there's some reason to believe that they'd have more information about the ideal speed to mistakes ratio than you do, I suggest just ignoring it. If one or the other of my caveats is true, I suggest asking the person who checks your work for more information about the issue, so that you can see why you should want to work slower and avoid more mistakes.

Comment author: Fergus_Mackinnon 27 June 2011 08:21:40PM 1 point [-]

I really need to get far more strenuous exercise than I currently do, but I can be very uncomfortable exposing myself to any criticism from people I don't already know. I live on the edge of a village nearby to a woods which I currently walk in occasionally. Other people use it regularly, and as a teenager, I often get the impression they think I'm there to drink or do drugs if I'm there at any time other than approximately three o'clock, when my school gets out, although in fairness drunken teens do litter the area regularly. I often find myself lacking energy and motivation, and I've always heard that good exercise can help with depression... I just can't seem to ever work up the determination to start going running,

If someone with better social skills than I could give me some instructions on how to deal with them, that'd be great, although any other advice is very welcome. I always did my best to keep to the sidelines during PE. I have Asperger's if that's any help...

Comment author: Alicorn 27 June 2011 08:23:31PM 14 points [-]

If you can afford it, you may be able to nonverbally signal to onlookers that you are there for Serious Running by showing up in a Serious Running outfit with corresponding accessories.

Comment author: Fergus_Mackinnon 27 June 2011 08:34:49PM 4 points [-]

Thanks, that would be a simple solution. It seems rather obvious now, I just nod, mutter 'good morning/afternoon' and run on... which they accept as a response without question because I'm there for Serious Running!

My family's relatively well off, and my birthday is coming up, so the cost isn't likely to be a problem unless it's very expensive. I'll check out the sports store next time I'm in town and see what sort of kit they have available. Thanks again.

Comment author: Desrtopa 28 June 2011 02:15:24PM 3 points [-]

You don't really need much by way of accessories to signal that you're running for exercise, just some clothes that are clearly more appropriate for accommodating sweat than for fashion, and probably a water bottle if you're running long distances.

Comment author: taryneast 27 June 2011 09:56:38PM 3 points [-]

...and I recommend getting an iPod and noise-dampening earphones. Even if you don't listen to music, they're good so you don't have to deal with hearing people and can ignore them more easily.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 28 June 2011 12:33:26AM 11 points [-]

If you just want to have an excuse to ignore people, the player is superfluous; the earphones are the signaling part.

Comment author: zntneo 28 June 2011 05:22:44PM 1 point [-]

Pfft i listen to something on my ipod quite a lot and people still seem to try to talk to me.

Comment author: taryneast 28 June 2011 03:49:27PM 1 point [-]

...oh and I should also point out that to make proper noise-canceling headphones work they do need to actually be plugged in and active. If you're going to be walking through noisy places and want quiet, you'll need the iPod too.

... not that this should at all get in the way of your excellent riposte ;)

Comment author: Fergus_Mackinnon 28 June 2011 05:18:38PM 2 points [-]

Normally I'd take the advice, but the woods is owned by the forestry commission. They're subsidised by the government on condition that they let the public, e.g. me, have access, but they run a forestry college there. With all the heavy machinery and chainsaws that implies appearing every so often. I didn't mention it, so you weren't to know, but I'd prefer to be a little safer in exchange for the added boredom and exposure to noise.

Comment author: taryneast 28 June 2011 09:17:49PM 2 points [-]

Yes - extremely good point.

I also recommend allowing yourself to hear if wandering around near traffic.

Being able to hear "watch out for that bus!" has very high utility.

Comment author: taryneast 28 June 2011 03:14:18PM 1 point [-]

Yeah, but they have a useful clip to hold the other end of the earphones steady :)

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 28 June 2011 03:25:52PM 2 points [-]

Darn expensive for a clip, though. ;)

Comment author: AngryParsley 28 June 2011 06:37:21AM *  2 points [-]

I run a decent amount and I used to be self-conscious about it. Eventually I realized: What does it matter what random strangers think? Their opinion of you has no effect on your life. They won't even know your name or remember your face.

Now it doesn't feel the least bit unusual when I ignore people. I'm breathing hard. In a few minutes I'll be half a mile away from this person. Why spend the effort to make eye contact and nod?

Comment author: XiXiDu 25 June 2011 11:20:22AM 0 points [-]

Name something that you do not do but should be told you ought...

Nada, I am already told enough, more than I can handle.

Name something that you do not do but wish you would be told you ought...

I wish more people would just tell me to relax and have some fun (people with arguments in favor of doing so).

Name something that you do not do but should do...

Existential risk mitigation. I don't do it because of uncertainty and psychological distress caused by the fear of having no more time to do what I would like to do based on naive introspection. And I am too selfish to give away large amounts of money that I fear I might need for my self at some point

Name something that you do not do but wish you did...

Be more focused on improving my education. I am too distracted by all the shiny and interesting things out there, by problems I can't solve and real life needs.

Name something that you do not do but are told you ought...

There are many irrational examples here. I am told not to care so much about my health and actually have some fun by drinking lots of alcohol. I don't drink alcohol because of health concerns but also because I simply don't like it.

Comment author: atucker 25 June 2011 02:25:58PM 2 points [-]

Would you be happy if someone told you to do something fun in a way which, in your eyes, is likely to reduce existential risk?

Comment author: erratio 01 July 2011 12:19:06PM *  1 point [-]

I don't blog as much as I would like to. I would like to blog more because I think it would make me a better writer, because I sometimes have sufficiently interesting thoughts such that I would like to flesh them out in writing and/or be able to share them with others, and because it's a low risk method of decreasing my self-consciousness. Oh and also because sometimes keeping records of what I thought/did at particular times in the past is extremely useful.

Barriers:

1) It feels egotistical/arrogant to think that anyone wants to hear about what I did today and how it affected me, and other 'diary' type things. So writing about those things would be a waste of other peoples' time, and a turn-off for any future visitors to my blog. (Note: I do write privately about those things sometimes, mostly when something happens that has the potential to change my beliefs. But I often start out with such posts as public and then change them to private halfway through writing them, because the idea of publishing them makes me cringe)

2) My thoughts on non-personal topics are usually not completely thought out. Writing them in non-complete form ends up being rambly and inconclusive, which is again a waste of peoples' reading time. So I often decide to wait until I've thought about it in more detail, or to write a rough draft elsewhere before writing a polished post, and then never get around to writing any of it.

3) My writing style in general is often more long-winded and opaque than I would prefer. This causes a mild ugh field around seeing my own writing anywhere in the public domain, especially if it's more than a paragraph or two long.

4) I am self-conscious in general about exposing myself/my work in public. Blogging was supposed to help with this but I've actually gotten more self-conscious about it over time, not less.

Comment author: handoflixue 01 July 2011 05:51:11PM 1 point [-]

Keep a public blog under a psuedonymn, where you post the ramblings, daily life, and so forth. Your friends might enjoy reading it, and it lets you practice writing. Whenever you write something particularly interesting on your personal blog, do a second draft that cuts down on the rambling and post it on your main blog.

Comment author: Armok_GoB 01 July 2011 02:34:38PM 1 point [-]

Write suggestion-driven fiction.

Comment author: Perplexed 01 July 2011 03:29:56PM 4 points [-]

Write suggestion-driven fiction.

What is "suggestion-driven fiction"? Googling was unhelpful.

What it sounds like is fiction in which the author has no particular story in mind as (s)he begins the narration, but rather the author generates plot and characters in response to reader suggestions as each chapter is published.

If that is the kind of thing you are talking about, it sounds very intriguing. But I wonder how a beginner captures enough initial readers to generate the suggestions. Reciprocity? If someone wants to organize a circle of three or four novice writers producing serialized fiction on their blogs and providing suggestions to each other, I would like to join the group.

Comment author: Armok_GoB 01 July 2011 03:50:09PM *  1 point [-]

Yea, that's basically it, or at least that falls squarely into the category together with some other things. The most common by far is a sort of communal roleplaying where the actions of the protagonist are determined by the community but you do everything else.

There are a lot of sites with communities that do these things, usually the games/roleplaying section of various forums or image boards. There are also sites that specialize in them, in which case it's usually some specific type of them such as illustrated ( http://www.mspaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?85-Forum-Adventures ), branching+anonymous+collaborative ( http://www.epicsplosion.com/epicsploitation/adventures ), etc.

If you wait a week or so, the lesswrong forums will probably be a good place for you to start a tradition of them, in case you don't want to learn the culture of some existing place. You could also run it on that biog you already have and rely on the comments functionality.

I follow a lot of these things, in a lot of places, and know a fair bit about how to make one successful, so if you're ever in doubt or interest or inspiration is inexplicably dying feel free to ask me.

Oh, and please post a link here whenever you start so I can read it and suggest things.

Comment author: Morendil 01 July 2011 01:11:53PM 1 point [-]

Keep a private blog, and consider posting to a public one those essays that you're particularly proud of.

Comment author: erratio 01 July 2011 10:49:22PM 1 point [-]

See 3), I have an ugh field around looking at my writing that means if I waited until I felt proud of something I wrote I would never publish anything. My current workaround, which I've used for academic coursework, involves pre-committing to aiming for a minimum level of quality rather than trying to be happy with my work. After sufficient time has passed since writing, I can usually look at it more objectively. Which suggests that I should commit to posting privately and then revisiting posts a week or two later after the ugh field has faded

Comment author: kurokikaze 30 June 2011 10:59:32AM *  1 point [-]

I want to lower my "off-topic" Internet usage when I'm on work.

What do I have now:

  1. No penalties for surfing Reddit if the work is done on time
  2. RescueTime for counting hours I spend on work and hours I spend on various lolcats (right now my efficiency is 0.5, which mean ~ 1 hour of reddit per 1.6 hours of work)

Why I want to do that? To have more time for my own projects and work.

What's keeping me from doing that:

  1. I'm afraid to burn out doing only the programming-related stuff.
  2. Some sites are just addictive (yes, Reddit, I'm looking at you).
  3. I'm slightly tired from two years long project (I'm going to vacation in less than 1 month).
Comment author: Armok_GoB 30 June 2011 12:37:23PM 2 points [-]

Ask someone to look over your shoulder at random times but maybe once per 10min on average.

Comment author: kurokikaze 30 June 2011 02:26:45PM 1 point [-]

Hm, I don't want to distract even more people from their duties, but this may work. I'll see what I can do.

Still, more ideas are welcome.

Comment author: Armok_GoB 30 June 2011 06:11:07PM 2 points [-]

You could set a timer/scrip to remind you to look over your own shoulder.

Comment author: handoflixue 30 June 2011 06:50:43PM 1 point [-]

It's entirely possible you have at least one co-worker with the same issue, who is also interested in fixing it. You could thus offer a mutual benefit :)

Comment author: beoShaffer 30 June 2011 08:10:31PM 1 point [-]

I know someone IRL who was having that problem. They modified their computer so that they were simply unable to access certain sites*. I believe it involved having the browser block certain IP addresses but I can't really remember. *It was possible to undo this but it took far to much work for a stalling activity.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 30 June 2011 09:02:40PM 2 points [-]
Comment author: kurokikaze 30 June 2011 08:59:30PM *  1 point [-]

Ha, I've written delaying proxy for this just like in xkcd.

Comment author: Bagricula 28 June 2011 09:04:51AM *  1 point [-]

I would like to go to grad school for physics and philosophy.

The Situation:

  1. I did my bachelors in Economics at a very good American university, but I only did moderately well.

  2. I took mechanics, electricity and magnetism, and wave phenomena. I also took theoretical multi-var, linear algebra, and abstract algebra, basic statistics, econometrics. In philosophy I've only taken a course on Kant's ethics.

The Constraints:

  1. I have not taken quantum mechanics, statistical thermodynamics, or any science-relevant philosophy (i.e. metaphysics, epistemology, philosophy of ...).

  2. I've not taken the GRE, either general or subject. The Physics GRE covers QM and Thermo.

  3. I have no formal research experience working under anyone.

  4. I am currently working roughly 9-6 Monday through Friday with about a half hour commute on either end. It takes me about an hour to get ready in the morning.

  5. I am currently living in Beijing, China as an American expatriate. My Chinese is decent, but not fluent enough to have deep conversations or to make day-to-day interactions easy. I take about 3.5 hours of Mandarin instruction a week with probably 2 hours of out of class homework.

  6. In order to combat depression, reduce stress and maintain my health, I try to cook lunch every morning as well as go swimming. Since the nearest pool that is open in the morning is a 30 minutes away I have been getting up at 5 AM and have been arriving at the office a little after 9 AM.

  7. I feel very lonely as my family and friends are almost all in the U.S. or U.K. still. As such I need to devote some amount of time to both socializing face-to-face here and to communicating with friends and family back home. This was recently exacerbated by my father having major surgery (which was successful) and by my persistent if now mild feelings of unrequited romantic love.

The Problem:

I believe I need to teach myself QM and Thermo to a sufficient level to do well on the GREs. I also need to brush up on the other subjects which I haven't touched in about 5 years.

However, I find I do not have the time / motivation / ability to teach myself these subjects. I have been making some progress reading through textbooks, but I have found that without working through problems all the way to their conclusion I don't really learn or internalize the ideas and practices.

Additionally, I'm concerned about demonstrating sufficient worthiness in other ways i.e. via recommendations, research, experience, etc.

I am open to inquiries regarding my motivation for this goal to help point towards near substitutes.

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 28 June 2011 09:27:05PM *  4 points [-]

I believe I need to teach myself QM and Thermo to a sufficient level to do well on the GREs.

Yes, that will be necessary to do well on the test. You should also be prepared to review classical mechanics and E&M. Having a good set of freshman-level physics textbooks is helpful, because many of the problems are at that level. I recommend the two-volume set by Resnick, Halliday, and Krane.

You should check out the physicsgre.com forums. You will be able to find a fair amount of advice threads for people in similar situations (lacking the full complement of upper-level physics courses, in need of research experience, etc.), as well as a lot of general advice about the physics GRE test. You can also try starting your own thread on that forum to solicit more advice. The consensus is that going to grad school in physics without the undergrad in physics is difficult and requires a lot of effort, but it's not impossible if one is dedicated and takes the initiative.

In general, a career in physics is going to require a lot of self-study. Grad students often end up working on such specialized research problems that the only way to learn about the topic is to read lots of published papers, which are often much more difficult to understand than textbooks.

For quantum mechanics, I recommend Griffith's Introduction to Quantum Mechanics. I am not sure why you haven't been working problems all the way through, but if it's because you don't have the correct solutions against which to check your answers, the manual for Griffith's textbook is easy to find. Unfortunately, I really don't know of a good undergraduate-level thermodynamics textbook.

For the general GRE test, buy a commercial test-prep book (personally, I prefer Barron's) and go through it cover to cover. Take the diagnostic test, figure out where your areas of weakness are, study them by working through the sections in the book that address them, and then take more practice tests. (Repeat if necessary.)

I think you would have an easier time finding a professor who would let you work in eir research group, or a college that might let you audit classes, if you were in an English-speaking country. The language barrier will be difficult to overcome for both of those activities. This would also help with the problem of loneliness. In addition, if you take the general GRE in the US, you can take it on the computer instead of on paper, which some find to be a more intuitive format. (At the least, it's nicer for writing the essays.)