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pedanterrific comments on Find yourself a Worthy Opponent: a Chavruta - Less Wrong
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I'm interested. One question before we go further, though - you describe yourself as 'a non-fundy Catholic'. Would Pope Benedict XVI agree that you are Catholic, or are you using another definition? (I don't mean to offend, but I have personal experience with a 'Catholic' who doesn't believe in an afterlife - too much doublethink hurts my brain sometimes.)
It occurs to me that such a person should behave exactly the same way as an atheist (except perhaps when making bets about isomer concentrations in dinosaur fossils). A god who doesn't treat you differently based on whether you worship him is an irrelevant god!
Isn't part of the catholic belief structure that god occasionally grants prayers?
A god wouldn't necessarily wait until you're dead to punish or reward your behavior. In the Old Testament, God seems to prefer to provide feedback for the living.
The catholic God in particular does most of his control by alleged threats after death. Punishment and reward in during life appears to be minimal. (This differs vastly from the descriptions of other gods and even the belief of past, particularly pre-christian, believers in the same god.)
Catholicism in particular has doctrines that hinge very strongly on the existence of an afterlife. If a person who identifies as Catholic professes not to believe in an afterlife, my confidence that they adhere to other common Catholic doctrines is reduced.
Hence 'Catholic' in scare quotes, yes.
That isn't necessarily true. I might believe in a god whose doctrines are maximally moral (either in the consequentialist sense that living according to them will maximize overall value, or in some deontological sense I don't entirely understand) but who won't treat me any differently if I worship him. Such a god is relevant to my behavior, in that what I ought to do given his existence is different from what I ought to do given his nonexistence.
That's what I said. The fact that he does behave like an atheist is the annoying bit - I knew he went to Catholic school, but actually wasn't aware he still considered himself Catholic until the topic of my atheism happened to come up.
As far as I can tell, he believes exactly the same things I do about basically everything - yes, even dinosaur fossils. He just considers himself Catholic, and says he 'believes in God'. If there ever was a more freeloading belief, I haven't met it.
I have touched on a related subject in another thread.
While I've never actually heard the term "Catholic atheist" as I have "Jewish atheist," it wouldn't actually be that surprising -- "Catholic," much more so than the generic "Christian", is a cultural signifier as well as a purely religious one.
Indeed. In Ireland, especially Northern Ireland, religion is far from the only major difference between the two main groups (Catholics/Nationalists/Irish/people who say “Derry”/people who say “haitch” and Protestants/Unionists/British/people who say “Londonderry”/people who say “aitch”, for lack of any completely satisfactory one-word labels for the groups.)
(My spell checker is clearly Protestant, as it flags “haitch” as incorrect.)
I wouldn't be so weirded out if that were the case, I can understand that. The problem is that it isn't being used as a cultural signifier - he never goes to Mass, none of his friends are Catholic and he didn't raise me to be Catholic. (It occurs to me to mention at this point that the person in question is my father.)
My 'atheist coming-out' was a deeply strange conversation, not least because I wasn't aware I had been in a closet.
Reminds me a bit of my father. My dad has basically said that he doesn't think there is anything after death, and that what you do in life does not matter- so long as you do not 'get caught.' While I cringe at his lack of morals, I do question why he considers himself Catholic. He does not go to church, does not pray, and holds the church in contempt.
I can see that it is not a cultural signifier, so my idea is that he fears creating any problems within the family. Other people in the family might outright ostracize him for openly stating his beliefs without the mandatory "but I'm a Catholic!" added in at the end. Perhaps it is a similar situation? I can't actually say, since I do not know your father. It's simply a stab in the dark.
There is the possibility of feeling gratitude, respect, or love for one's Creator. Your feelings in that regard would make God very relevant.
If there were a Creator of the Universe, and he wasn't the usual monotheistic Celestial Psychopath, I'd feel some gratitude.
Hi pedanterrific, Yes, the Pope would agree that I'm a Catholic, although that's hardly an essential feature. For specificity, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic who can recite the Nicene Creed in good faith. PMs/emails preferred.
So, did you get my PM?