John_Maxwell_IV comments on Ego syntonic thoughts and values - Less Wrong

53 Post author: Yvain 17 July 2011 08:43PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 14 July 2011 12:15:36AM 17 points [-]

Ok, but then what?

I mean, this idea sounds about right to me (in general terms) and has direct consequences for my life. I'm in such a conflict right now, so I'm very motivated to find a way to deal with it.

(In case that you're addressing this in an upcoming post soon, feel free to ignore this comment until then.)

I'm currently facing opposition between two different personalities and their associated goals. Roughly speaking, one side has a very stable, mildly entertained, completely withdrawn lifestyle that takes over the whole day, and the other has fairly specific, time-intensive, but exciting ambitions and is seething with hatred over all the wasted potential and seeming incompetence and tyranny of the dominant slacker side. (I'm willing to be arbitrarily explicit, but don't want to derail into my crap unasked.) The situation is quite similar to the heroin addict, though not yet as unstable. Either side makes it look to me and to others as if it were the victim, exactly as you describe.

The conflict is clearly causing me much suffering and is not a satisfactory state of affairs, but it's not clear at all to me what I can do about it. Here's a (probably incomplete) list of things I've unsuccessfully tried over the last years (please note that I'm compressing quite some time and am focusing directly on the conflict, so this sounds probably more intense than it really is):

  1. Accept fully the desires of both sides as valid. They are not, strictly speaking, in conflict. I can totally imagine spending, say, working some hours on a long-term goal and some other hours relaxing, or maybe find ways to integrate them. This does nothing. Sure, I don't hate myself for the conflict anymore, but it doesn't resolve it and one side is still utterly dominant for months until the other violently takes over.

  2. Try to trace exactly what the conflict is. This was specifically influenced by the Method of Levels and PCT, according to which there must be 2 (or more) control systems that attempt to control for contradictory reference values. I've spent plenty of hours on that, but can't actually identify any direct conflict. I do not get a situation where I can feel both sides pulling in different directions. Rather, I get completely mind-wiped by one side, which takes over, conflict-free, then background suffering builds up, another mind-wipe, the other side rules. If I try to become aware of the background suffering, I just get a completely unfocused, unspecific build-up of pressure in my head and stomach that is intensely painful. I can concentrate on this for hours, but get no further insight or connection to anything whatsoever out of it. (I have found MoL-like analysis useful for other minor issues, though.)

  3. Different kinds of meditation. Vipassana. Concentration. Noting. Chanting. Prayer. Trying to be aware of as many internal events as possible. Ditto external. Focusing on rest. All this leads either nowhere or gets the results described in 1) and 2).

  4. Drugs. Anti-depressants, uppers, downers, psychedelics, dissociatives, omega 3, whatever. Some make it feel like I'm resolving something (particularly the entheogens), but nothing changes. I always walk away with "oh, that's why I'm suffering, now I got it!" and a few days later, at most, it's all back.

  5. Contracts. I've set up multiple contracts with myself, trying to negotiate conditions that are getting closer to resolution, but they hold no power and after a few days I start abandoning them, regardless of how severe the contract was.

  6. Finding out what "my purpose" or "my real values" are, by introspection and writing. I don't even get fake results that seem convincing at first, like with the drugs. I have lots and lots of pages of psycho-analytical babble, though.

  7. Using CBT and The Work to repair broken or harmful thoughts. Did absolutely nothing for me. Most of the time, I don't even have thoughts. (This wasn't always the case. When I first meditated at 15, I found it hard to sit for 5 minutes and not get overwhelmed by my thoughts. Now I go blank quite often and then get bored.) And the thoughts I found were mostly not about me (but about stuff I read, like what's good about Python, or explaining to myself how spaced repetition works so that I don't forget the explanation). The few worries I could dig out were not really responsive to the approach. If I try investigating my feelings using these techniques, I simply get no results. "What's this anxiety about?", "What does it predict?", "Who would I be without it?", all just gets a mental shrug and "don't know / don't care". I might as well ask what an itch is "about" or "who I would be without it".

  8. Using operant conditioning, trivial inconveniences and similar "behaviorist" tools to get rid of one side or keep it in check. (I've tried this with both sides, at different times of course.) No results, except that I changed a few food preferences in the process. Essentially every single akrasia tactic described on LW fails me here.

  9. Blatantly and totally picking sides, embracing one personality as the only true one. (Again, did this with each side eventually.) This lead me to actively harm the other, often destroying things, leaving associated communities, the like. Of course, I made my decision public and took full responsibility for the previous conflict and for the new direction I was going to take. This feels great for typically a few weeks (and can trigger quite a manic episode), but then the other side comes back, "willpower" gets drained and I descend into total apathy. There isn't even active opposition anymore; both sides are perfectly willing to commit "suicide" by now and let the other side take over, as long as this damn suffering finally ends, but they don't go anywhere.

  10. Give up. I've sat down, stared at a wall and said to myself, "I'm tired of this bullshit and will do nothing anymore! I won't influence anything, won't want anything, prefer nothing, decide nothing, just sit here and stare at this wall. Whatever happens then, I don't care.". I spent a few hours more or less catatonic, then had some kind of peace for a few days, but the background suffering just builds up again and the anxiety, self-hate and pain come back, making it impossible to enjoy anything.

I hope this isn't too incoherent or tl;dr, but I'm frustrated that this looks as if there should be some deep understanding and solution that would actually help me, not just a fancy idea that signals how cynical I am.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 19 July 2011 04:32:46AM 0 points [-]

Have you tried involving other people in whatever you're wanting to accomplish, and getting in the same room together and working on it next to one another? This seems to work really well in practice. (Very similar to a having a "job".)

Comment author: [deleted] 20 July 2011 01:56:09AM 1 point [-]

Generally speaking, yeah it helps. You'll still have to face trivial inconveniences and so on, but it's useful.

Problem is, I find it very hard to find people who a) I can comfortably share an environment with, b) are interested in the same things as me (individual topics, easy - multiple ones, hard) and c) are actually anywhere near me. This might be easier if I lived near a bigger city (working on that, though I found it very hard even at a large university in Berlin). I'm skeptical however, as most of my "role models" in the fields I'm interested in were on the hermit side of the social spectrum. It seems to me that learning all the necessary skills and attitude changes to become more social (and benefit from it) is itself a major project and I'll be better off if I instead invest my resources directly in the stuff I want. I'm on the look-out for cheap experiments, though.

The best compromise I found is working on trains. For some reason, that works almost as well, nobody bothers me and it's not deafening silent like a library.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 20 July 2011 10:24:40PM 1 point [-]

How about cafes?