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Yvain comments on The Benefits of Rationality? - Less Wrong
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Comments (76)
It's not, if you know you're doing it.
Pretty sure. If I wanted to signal, I'd be a lot more high-falutin about it. Actually, my comments do sound a bit high-falutin' (I was looking for a better word than "truth seeker", but couldn't find one) but that wasn't exactly what I wanted to express. The untangling-wires metaphor works a little better. Nominull's "I only seek to be right because I hate being wrong." works too. It's less of a "I vow to follow the pure light of Truth though it lead me to the very pits of Hell" and more of an "Aaargh, my brain feels so muddled right now, how do I clear this up?"
Also, this would be a terrible community to signal truth-seeking in, considering how entrenched the "rationality as win" metaphor is. As I mentioned in the hair example, I think a lot more people here are signaling a burning interest in real-world application than really have one.
Um...this line of argument applies to everything, doesn't it? What is the use of seeking money, if it doesn't bring pleasure or send good signals? What is the use of seeking love, if it doesn't bring pleasure or send good signals? What is the use of seeking 'practical benefits', if they don't bring pleasure or send good signals?
Darned if I know. That's the way my utility function works. And it certainly is mediated by pleasure and good signals, but I prefer not to say it's about pleasure and good signals because I'd rather not be turned into orgasmium just yet.
Yeah, "rationalists WIN!" is the most widely misued EYism on all of LessWrong.com.
Yvain:
Do you really believe that you engage in Truth-Seeking for utilitarian reasons? I get the impression that you don't really believe that.
Would you be willing to to enter a computer simulation where you got to investigate higher math puzzles (or metaphysics) with no applications? Spend your days in a fantastic and never-ending Truth-Seeking project (we'll throw great sex, food and housing into the holodeck for you as well)?
I liked this better at the beginning when you were prodding people who say that they see rationalism as a means to an end! You seem to be going back to consequentialism!
I don't believe that rationalists WIN because I don't believe that winning WINS
Maybe a few videogames (or other forms of entertainment in addition to sex) and this sounds like a very sweet deal.
And you must enjoy the signal value you a little bit! You aren't keeping your Less Wrong postings in your diary under lock and key!
logi:
That's possible and probably partially accurate; if there were more posts taking the form "I believe X because..." on Less Wrong, I might be more open to the idea that people are doing that.
Ciphergoth:
I just wanted to get Yvain's opinion about how much value from posting on Less Wrong was coming from signaling. Yvain suggested that this was not his or her main goal and that LW would be a uniquely poor place to attempt it. I personally doubt both of those points, but I was hoping to get some clarification since the comments about signaling and the nature of truth-seeking don't seem to be part of a system of beliefs.
Are you worried that signaling truth-seeking is legitimate enough?
Sure, but it's pretty clear that a lot of people are enjoying the WIN! signal too. Let's try not to get too caught up in who is signalling what.
Even if he did not value the signal, surely you can conjecture a rational strategy of publishing beliefs in order to refine them.
This is an interesting debate. I believe all the truth we'll ever get will be like the tube map: good for purpose X, and no more. Or at least, bad for purpose Y. Wanting more is surrendering to metaphysics, realism, platonism, absolutism - whatever you wish to call it.
I believe platonism shaped first the Hellenistic world, then christianity (Paul was of Greek culture, the whole new testament was written in Greek, and books like the one of John are soaked in primary platonic philosophy), and rules until today. It also really sucks. Because it makes people to not want to be less wrong. They want to be completely, absolutely right, in a way you can never claim with the help of mere rationality. Only delusion can help with that.
The Truth Pilgrim's progress goes like this:
Slightly Rational -> Less Wrong -> Delusional
Yep -- and that's probably as close to an "absolute truth" as you can get. Robert Anton Wilson's "Quantum Psychology" (bad title, awesome book, some parts approach GEB in awesomeness) has some very good information along these lines, along with lots of "class exercises" that might be useful for developing an instrumental rationality group.
Good point! Though inasmuch as one can see the history of ideas as a conflict between Plato and Aristotle (not an entirely fruitless endeavor) it's worth noting that Aristotle is still alive and kicking.
I inherently value humanity's success in understanding as much as we do, but I don't discount the utility much in time; I don't much mind if we learn something later rather than earlier.
As a result, it's not that important to me to try to serve that end directly; I think it's a bigger gain to serve it indirectly, by trying to reduce the probability of extinction in the next hundred years. This also serves several other goals I value.