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Demosthenes comments on The Benefits of Rationality? - Less Wrong
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Comments (76)
Why is that bad?
How has relativity made us better off? If you want to pursue truth because you like truth, that's great -- it's a "win" for you. But if you only need the truth to get to something else, it's not a win to add useless knowledge.
Are you sure that this isn't all about signaling being a truth-seeker? (i.e. "Truth-Seeking Isn't About The Truth")
After all, credibly signaling that you value the truth could make you a valuable ally, be considered a neutral judge, etc. etc. For these reasons, credibly valuing the truth above all else might be beneficial... for reasons not having anything to do with actually getting to the truth.
So, if you're saying we should seek truth just because it's the truth, and not because it brings practical benefit or pleasure or sends good signals, then what is the use of seeking truth?
It's not, if you know you're doing it.
Pretty sure. If I wanted to signal, I'd be a lot more high-falutin about it. Actually, my comments do sound a bit high-falutin' (I was looking for a better word than "truth seeker", but couldn't find one) but that wasn't exactly what I wanted to express. The untangling-wires metaphor works a little better. Nominull's "I only seek to be right because I hate being wrong." works too. It's less of a "I vow to follow the pure light of Truth though it lead me to the very pits of Hell" and more of an "Aaargh, my brain feels so muddled right now, how do I clear this up?"
Also, this would be a terrible community to signal truth-seeking in, considering how entrenched the "rationality as win" metaphor is. As I mentioned in the hair example, I think a lot more people here are signaling a burning interest in real-world application than really have one.
Um...this line of argument applies to everything, doesn't it? What is the use of seeking money, if it doesn't bring pleasure or send good signals? What is the use of seeking love, if it doesn't bring pleasure or send good signals? What is the use of seeking 'practical benefits', if they don't bring pleasure or send good signals?
Darned if I know. That's the way my utility function works. And it certainly is mediated by pleasure and good signals, but I prefer not to say it's about pleasure and good signals because I'd rather not be turned into orgasmium just yet.
Yvain:
Do you really believe that you engage in Truth-Seeking for utilitarian reasons? I get the impression that you don't really believe that.
Would you be willing to to enter a computer simulation where you got to investigate higher math puzzles (or metaphysics) with no applications? Spend your days in a fantastic and never-ending Truth-Seeking project (we'll throw great sex, food and housing into the holodeck for you as well)?
I liked this better at the beginning when you were prodding people who say that they see rationalism as a means to an end! You seem to be going back to consequentialism!
I don't believe that rationalists WIN because I don't believe that winning WINS
Maybe a few videogames (or other forms of entertainment in addition to sex) and this sounds like a very sweet deal.
And you must enjoy the signal value you a little bit! You aren't keeping your Less Wrong postings in your diary under lock and key!
logi:
That's possible and probably partially accurate; if there were more posts taking the form "I believe X because..." on Less Wrong, I might be more open to the idea that people are doing that.
Ciphergoth:
I just wanted to get Yvain's opinion about how much value from posting on Less Wrong was coming from signaling. Yvain suggested that this was not his or her main goal and that LW would be a uniquely poor place to attempt it. I personally doubt both of those points, but I was hoping to get some clarification since the comments about signaling and the nature of truth-seeking don't seem to be part of a system of beliefs.
Are you worried that signaling truth-seeking is legitimate enough?
Sure, but it's pretty clear that a lot of people are enjoying the WIN! signal too. Let's try not to get too caught up in who is signalling what.
Even if he did not value the signal, surely you can conjecture a rational strategy of publishing beliefs in order to refine them.