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dlthomas comments on Rationality Lessons Learned from Irrational Adventures in Romance - Less Wrong
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I am really enjoying this discussion. And I respect the fact that you are reserving judgment, as you haven't thought it out very thoroughly.
I didn't think my objection to the use of the word innocuous through before I voiced it, and I absolutely don't regret it.
But I am literally having trouble figuring out what else I am supposed to object to. I am willing to try to explain. And I think I can better understand my position, if I understand IF or HOW people disagree with my original objection about word choice. I have not stated this confusion often or clearly enough, so, to set a 'good' example, I will state it as a question:
Do you approve of the word innocuous, meaning harmless, in the statement above? Why or why not?
Having said all that, I'll give it a stab a reply to your more recent comments anyway. The use of a question mark in your words makes it much easier for me to identify your question, and answer it.
Personal note: I am not usually trying to be ironic, but I am aware that I often come across that way. I make special effort on LW to be more precise and direct, and careful in my statements. Taking out the word 'totally', which I usually sling about in order to increase positive feedback in my day-to-day life, in order to suggest that I have a sense of humor about my unfortunate 'know it all' attitude may have been an error. Feel free to assume I am just trying to make a humorous point instead of a serious one, if you find me offensive on a rational level!
But enough about me...
'such work' is not defined, but I assume you are referring to home work, whether paid in negotiable tokens or 'financially unrecompensed'.
I did not notice stating this:
And what the state of CA thinks about the negotiable and non-negotiable arrangements you make with each other, or with employers, I do not really care about, as long as CA does not force you to live there, and there are a wide variety of other options available to you both. Do you have a wide variety of other options?
I disagree with your conclusion, but on a somewhat pedantic level. Financial recompense and Optional reduction of financial expense are not equivalent. One is simply a pile of tokens. The other is a choice and a judgment about what to do with a pile of tokens. Do you disagree?
This was my understanding of the comment here, and was what I initially objected to.
OK. I consider negotiable tokens to be the only definition of financially recompensed. An optional reduction of financial expense, on an individual level is simply personal budgeting.
In the case of any particular couple, how the work, paid or unpaid, is divided, I don't really care. Unless the arrangement is a source of stress for that relationship.
I think that a gender-biased pay disparity can aggravate financial stress in heterosexual relationships. And I think that a high disparity in income level can cause a similar stress in any couple, no matter the actual gender or sexual orientation.
The questions of 'how best can i contribute' and 'am I acting responsibly by choosing to contribute, unpaid, in the home while being supported (fully or partially) on someone else's "dime" (long may it last)' are difficult and sometimes conflicting questions, whether gender pay inequities are biased. Or irrelevant, because the couple are of the same gender.
Questions I wonder about but do not know the answers to: How common are one-income households in either situation? How stable are one-income households compared to two income households? I'm pretty sure there's quite a lot of data on heterosexuals.
Since gender bias probably exists, I wish we could compare it to data on homosexual couples, but they do not get the same social support or suffer the same social pressures... so I'm not sure how meaningful a comparison would be. But I'm still curious.
I agree.
In one of my dreams last night, I was living with a sorceress. She needed some reagents, and her friend on the moon wanted to use a human skeleton for some occult purpose. So she removed my first person perspective/spirit from my body and put it on the mantle across from the magic mirror, so I could see things that were going on. She then incinerated my flesh, leaving charred bones held together in human form by magic.
I then watched an Indiana Jones-style path animation of my skeleton going to the moon, and of magic supplies for my sorceress girlfriend being sent from there to Earth. Other stuff happened in the magic mirror, and eventually there was another path animation of my bones being sent back. My bones were magically cleaned, flesh was put on them, and my spirit was returned to my body.
Despite the fact that she didn't ask my permission, I didn't mind and wasn't bothered by the events as they happened. In real life, I'm a different person and would probably mind such a thing.
My point is that whether something having to do with relative income or who does what in a relationship is a source of stress depends on the mindsets of the people in the relationship. If neither member of a couple minds acquiring goods or negotiable tokens by having one suddenly extrude the other's soul, scorch their body until their bones are black, and lend them to friends, and they're happier that way than they would be in less gruesome scenarios...that's what works for them.
It seems so obvious when you put it that way. (Upvoted for divine lunacy.)
I don't want to get involved in the personal business between any two or three+ people, but I also do not mean to suggest that every arrangement that both parties agree to has a matching balance of stress and benefit to both parties. (Love your dream scenario! for me, that would totally be a nightmare.)
And I don't think any specific gender causes the harm for a pattern of gender differences, like a bias to favor male employees because people report more satisfaction with male employees.
But with a gender-based pay inequity, which couples benefit most? gay men, straight people, or lesbians?
And should we care more about couples than we do about individuals, eg: single women? I don't think anybody is suggesting this. But this is, in my mind, the primary problem with gender-based pay inequities, and 'innocuous' causes are no longer 'innocuous' if the harm to individuals is measurable and significant.