jsalvatier comments on Help Fund Lukeprog at SIAI - Less Wrong

40 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 24 August 2011 07:16AM

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Comment author: lukeprog 24 August 2011 04:20:07PM *  19 points [-]

SilasBarta,

We collected lots of data before and during minicamp. We are waiting for some time to pass before collecting followup data, because it takes time for people's lives to change, if they're going to change. Minicamp was only a couple months ago.

Minicampers are generally still in contact, and indeed we are still gathering data. For example, several minicampers sent me before and after photos concerning their fashion (which was part of the social effectiveness section of the minicamp) and I'm going to show them to people on the street and ask them to choose which look they prefer (without indicating which is 'before' and which one is 'after').

So yes: by all qualitative measures, minicamp seems to have been a success. The early quantitative measures have been taken, but before-and-after results will have to wait a while.

As for future rationality training, we are taking the data gathered from minicamp and boot camp and also from some market research we did and trying to build a solid curriculum. To my knowledge, four people are seriously working on this project, and Eliezer is one of them.

Cheers,

Luke

Comment author: jsalvatier 24 August 2011 04:34:54PM *  5 points [-]

I'm curious, why you guys didn't post the testimonials or surveys you gathered at the end of the camp? Obviously these should be accompanied with appropriate caveats, but I think this would help explain to people why you are pleased with the results and think 'we're on to something'.

Comment author: lukeprog 24 August 2011 06:41:12PM 6 points [-]

Largely, lack of available staff hours.

Comment author: AnnaSalamon 25 August 2011 04:08:01AM 19 points [-]

Here are excerpts from the Minicamp testimonials (which were written to be shown to the public), with a link to the full list at the end:

“The week I spent in minicamp had by far the highest density of fun and learning I have ever experienced. It's like taking two years of college and condensing it to a week: you learn just as much and you have just as much fun. The skills I've learned will help me set and achieve my own life goal, and the friends I've made will help me get there.” --Alexei

“This was an intensely positive experience. This was easily the most powerful change self-modification I've ever made, in all of the social, intellectual, and emotional spheres. I'm now a more powerful person than I was a week ago -- and I can explain exactly how and why this is true.

At mini-camp, I've learned techniques for effective self-modification -- that is, I have a much deeper understanding of how to change my desires, gather my willpower, channel my time and cognitive resources, and model and handle previously confusing situations. What's more, I have a fairly clear map of how to build these skills henceforth, and how to inculcate them in others. And all this was presented in such a way that any sufficiently analytical folk -- anyone who has understood a few of the LW sequences, say -- can gain in extreme measures.” --Matt Elder / Fiddlemath

“I expected a week of interesting things and some useful tools to take away. What I got was 8 days of constant, deep learning, challenges to my limits that helped me grow. I finally grokked that I can and should optimize myself on every dimension I care about, that practice and reinforcement can make me a better thinker, and that I can change very quickly when I'm not constrained by artificial barriers or stress.

I would not recommend doing something like this right before another super-busy week, because I was learning at 100% of capacity and will need a lot of time to unpack all the things I learned and apply them to my life, but I came away with a clear plan for becoming better. It is now a normal and easy thing for me to try things out, test my beliefs, and self-improve. And I'm likely to be much more effective at making the world a better place as well, by prioritizing without fear.

The material was all soundly-researched and effectively taught, with extremely helpful supplemental exercises and activities. The instructors were very helpful in and out of session. The other participants were excited, engaged, challenging, and supportive.

I look forward to sharing what I've learned with my local Lesswrong meetup and others in the area. If that's even 1/4 as awesome as my time at the Mini-Camp, it will make our lives much better.” --Ben Hoffman / Benquo

“I really can't recommend this camp enough! This workshop broke down a complex and intertwined set of skills labelled in my brain as "common sense" and distinguished each part so that I could work on them separately. Sessions on motivation, cognition, and what habits to build to not fool yourself were particularly helpful. This camp was also the first example that I've seen of people taking current cognitive science and other research, decoding it, and showing people what's been documented to work so that they can use it too. It feels to me now as though the coolest parts of the sequences have been given specific exercises and habits to build off of. This camp, and the people in it, have changed my path for the better.” --David Jones / TheDave

You can now also read the full testimonials, from everyone who chose to give one.

Comment author: jsalvatier 24 August 2011 07:47:48PM 6 points [-]

Is this something one of the minicampers might be willing and able to do?

Comment author: handoflixue 25 August 2011 12:54:08AM 5 points [-]

I'm genuinely interested in seeing this data published, because I think it's something that a lot of people can build off of. If the only obstacle is really hours, I am happy to contribute.

I would be happy to show up in person while I'm in the area, pick up any paper notes you have available, transcribe them, and mail the originals back once finished. I have professional experience with data entry (including specifically product surveys) and market research in general. I'll be in San Francisco the afternoon of Monday, September 5th, hopefully around noon. I leave early Tuesday morning.

Comment author: lukeprog 25 August 2011 01:20:20AM 8 points [-]

Great! Much of the minicamp data is private and anonymous, so I can't share that with you, but I definitely have tasks for volunteers to do that will free uo time for me to write up a minicamp report - some of those tasks are even directly relevant to minicamp. Please email me at lukeprog at gmail if you'd like to help.

Comment author: SilasBarta 24 August 2011 07:07:44PM *  3 points [-]

Is there a post requesting volunteer help with this administrative task?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 24 August 2011 09:23:15PM 7 points [-]

Administrating volunteers also requires staff hours. Sometimes more than the original task. Why, are you volunteering to administrate them?

Comment author: SilasBarta 24 August 2011 09:43:18PM *  0 points [-]

Sure, I'd love to! (I thought I didn't qualify to volunteer for SIAI?) Hand over whatever you have and I'll make sure they do it right! (I thought this administration has to be done by someone in the loop on this, but whatever.)

Oh, you were just hoping I'd drop it, and the issue of actual substantiation of the mini-camp's success (which lies at the top of your reasons for wanting to fund Luke) would die off? Can't help there.

Comment author: lukeprog 25 August 2011 12:40:41AM 11 points [-]

SilasBarta,

I need to write up the results myself because I personally ran the minicamp with Anna Salamon and Andrew Critch. But I have tons of stuff I could have you do that would free up more of my time to get around to writing up results of minicamp data. If you're interested in helping, that would be awesome. You can contact me at lukeprog [at] gmail.

Comment author: AuthorityFigure 25 August 2011 03:29:24PM 12 points [-]

"Sure, I'd love to! (I thought I didn't qualify to volunteer for SIAI?)"

LOL. Way to play up the role of the passive-aggressive outsider.

Comment author: OptimalFAI 25 August 2011 06:59:45PM 6 points [-]

Very true.

In the interest of optimizing our rationality I think that we need to continue to call out instances "community distancing" such as the one exhibited by Silas above.

The reason for doing so? It lets the dissenters know that a community can tolerate and appreciate criticism but not the creation of a lone wolf character. Lone wolves do not contribute to a community and instead impede our advances in rationality by drawing conversations back to their status. As such, their status seeking should be pointed out and skepticism should be attached to their future postings.

Passive-aggressive comments in particular are troublesome because these types eventually find ways to disrupt substantive threads by reminding others of their loner status and their unacknowledged genius. Their resentment then leads to them mocking key figures in a community (note Silas' comments to both Eliezer and Luke).

Perhaps LW needs a mini-sequence on acceptable and non-acceptable signaling within a rational community.

Comment author: wedrifid 26 August 2011 06:51:24AM *  6 points [-]

As such, their status seeking should be pointed out and skepticism should be attached to their future postings.

I object. "Lone wolves", and Silas in particular, are not more status seeking than average. Luke's contributions are far more status seeking than Silas's are. Luke is good at status seeking while Silas's biggest weakness is that he fails to status seek when it would clearly be in his interests to do so.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 August 2011 07:16:53PM 2 points [-]

It lets the dissenters know that a community can tolerate and appreciate criticism but not the creation of a lone wolf character. Lone wolves do not contribute to a community and instead impede our advances in rationality by drawing conversations back to their status.

Let's taboo "lone wolf" and see what you actually mean by it, because I don't see Silas as a lone wolf figure in this debacle. For example, most of his comments have positive karma -- what I would consider a lone wolf wouldn't have such support.

Comment author: lessdazed 25 August 2011 08:31:22PM *  1 point [-]

Lone wolves do not contribute to a community

You think they don't contribute at all?

Comment author: handoflixue 25 August 2011 12:54:46AM 0 points [-]

http://lesswrong.com/lw/78s/help_fund_lukeprog_at_siai/4oxp I can administer myself when it comes to basic data transcription.