Logos01 comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 8 - Less Wrong

8 Post author: Unnamed 25 August 2011 02:17AM

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Comment author: Logos01 30 August 2011 09:15:49AM 7 points [-]

Hm. In Chapter 74, we learn that all ritual magic requires a sacrifice, and Harry muses about all the pulled punches in wizard warfare. Iiinteresting.

Especially since Quirrell/Voldemort specifically mentions that it is possible to sacrifice "a portion" of one's own magical power -- permanently -- to achieve 'great effects'. I imagine a nefarious individual could conceive of a rite whereby the sacrifice of another wizard's life -- and by extension, his magic -- would cause at least some portion of that magic to be transferred to yourself.

Perhaps older wizards were more powerful because... they had more power? One could easily conceive of Godric Griffindor using this method of execution upon potential Dark Lords in order to combat more-powerful ones.

Comment author: Xachariah 04 September 2011 09:46:57AM 13 points [-]

That seems like an effective method of imprisonment. Force the wizard to expend their power permanently in rituals (or just one powerful ritual). Such a prison would be significantly safer than Azkaban, since any wizards which escape would be effectively useless. They would be permanently helpless; some might consider it an even worse fate than dementors.

On further thought, perhaps that is why the public accepts dementors. Imagine what the prison system could have been before dementors were harnessed for prison work. The state would have an incentive to label people as criminals, so that it could burn their magic. The entire situation would degrade into an ever worsening police state. The discovery of dementors for prison use would be a humanitarian breakthrough akin to the abolishing of Capital Punishment.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 05 September 2011 07:00:56AM 8 points [-]

I'm impressed. That's WH40K-level crapsackiness.

Comment author: CronoDAS 07 September 2011 10:18:02AM 1 point [-]

It's also straight out of Vampire: the Masquerade - Vampires can become stronger and more vampire-ish by eating the "souls" of other vampires. This is considered a heinous crime in vampire society and is punishable by Final Death.

Comment author: Sniffnoy 07 September 2011 10:39:58PM 1 point [-]

Huh, I thought the obvious precedent was Larry Niven's story about a world where even minor crimes are punishable by death so that your organs can be harvested for transplantation...

Comment author: CronoDAS 08 September 2011 02:51:42PM 0 points [-]

Well, that too. ;)

Comment author: wedrifid 07 September 2011 05:22:47PM 1 point [-]

It's also straight out of Vampire: the Masquerade - Vampires can become stronger and more vampire-ish by eating the "souls" of other vampires. This is considered a heinous crime in vampire society and is punishable by Final Death.

Which means you'd better make sure you drink a lot of vampire souls before they catch you. All of them if possible.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 05 September 2011 08:54:31AM 4 points [-]

Such a prison would be significantly safer than Azkaban, since any wizards which escape would be effectively useless. They would be permanently helpless.

Apart from, y'know, still being humans, right?

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 06:18:42PM 1 point [-]

If any of those previous Dark Wizards were dangerous even as ordinary humans, they wouldn't've lost in the first place.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 05 September 2011 06:25:23PM 0 points [-]

Unless they had some kind of really cunning plan.

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 06:27:33PM 0 points [-]

If they had such a plan which really truly required them to be non-magical* and somehow was superior to all magical plans, they could just burn their power themselves...

* This makes me very wary as it sounds perilously close to conjunction fallacy. The set of 'non-magical \/ magical plans' ought to be larger than either subset...

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 05 September 2011 06:42:56PM 0 points [-]

Example: Have your enemy burn your magic. Your enemy thinks you are safe and lets their guard down. Your minion sacrifices themselves and you absorb their magic. You win.

Admittedly this plan will involve more than three things going right in a row.

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 07:03:23PM 0 points [-]

Your minion sacrifices themselves and you absorb their magic.

I was going to say that this step seems like an assumption, except Eliezer just made Dumbledore say that was the secret to Grindelwald's success, so...

Comment author: Sheaman3773 05 September 2011 08:31:28PM 4 points [-]

But while his Muggle allies yet made blood sacrifice to sustain him, Grindelwald would not have fallen.

He never said that his Muggle allies were killing themselves; the blood sacrifice mentioned could easily be from those who were killed in the Nazi extermination camps.

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 08:35:09PM 1 point [-]

He never said that his Muggle allies were killing themselves; the blood sacrifice mentioned could easily be from those who were killed in the Nazi extermination camps.

Is there a difference, from the magical point of view, between Muggle allies slaughtering each other to fuel Grindelwald, and slaughtering non-allied Muggles to fuel Grindelwald?