wedrifid comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 8 - Less Wrong

8 Post author: Unnamed 25 August 2011 02:17AM

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Comment author: wedrifid 02 September 2011 02:29:33AM *  2 points [-]

Or Harry finds the idea of failing to signal trust in Hermione even more abhorrent than possibly abandoning the girls to their fates.

Exactly. Now he should begin to see why most people in magical Britain allow Azkaban to go on, without protest.

I suggest that Harry could perhaps have managed to send a good signal - possibly even a better and visibly more sincere signal - by making his commitment with something like his typical discretion.

Comment author: hairyfigment 02 September 2011 03:04:07AM 1 point [-]

Well, the deal certainly seems risky. And his judgement is suspect -- we know he's already risked his life in a stupid way (at least once) to prove his 'intelligence' to Hermione.

But on that occasion, Hermione with her trust in authority pointed out the flaw. Later Harry correctly decided that her advice (or at least, the act of thinking about what she might say) would have saved him from making a big mistake with Azkaban. Since she now appears capable of listening, asking her could yield a net increase in expected value.

I don't even know if Harry made the right decision by protecting her and her friends. We'll see if Quirrell merely increased Harry's reputation or if, thanks to his action in ch. 75, the events of these chapters will ultimately make staying at Hogwarts unsafe. (I'm embarrassed to admit I missed this possibility until I saw an FF.net reviewer make a related point.)

Comment author: wedrifid 02 September 2011 03:28:49AM *  6 points [-]

Since she now appears capable of listening, asking her could yield a net increase in expected value.

  • Asking seems valuable any time there is time for information-gathering. Hermione is smart (and even more valuable than Harry's inner Founder personas.)
  • Asking for permission seems appropriate when it applies to interfering with Hermione specifically.
  • Asking Hermione for permission when other people's lives are at stake and Hermione happens to be in the room is not appropriate.
  • Asking Hermione for advice and preference when other people's lives are at stake and Hermione happens to be in the room is basically essential.
  • When the decision is already obviously determined without even needing Hermione's input warning her is obviously essential.
  • I don't believe Harry explicitly said he will do what she says whenever he asks her. It isn't quite asking for permission, even though that is the implication. Non-compliance would not be a technical breach but a real insult.
  • As it stands Harry saving Tracy and Hannah after Hermione said not to would be way, way more disrespectful than just doing it without asking.
  • With a simple disclaimer that represents even a tiny fraction of what Harry usually considers when making commitments Harry saving Tracy and Hannah despite having a negative response would be frustrating to Hermione but not a defection on an implied agreement and probably far less insulting than if he had just not asked at all.
  • Hermione knows Harry well enough that a mild when-it's-not-about-you disclaimer should be expected from Harry - even reassuring. People doing things that are totally out of character and sabotage their own goals just to please you is (usually) creepy.
  • I don't think this is in-character for Harry - or at least it isn't unless in-character Harry is totally whipped and this is a flaw he needs to overcome.
  • Eliezer saying "No, that's what Harry meant to do and he was Right to do it" would make me sad.
Comment author: Vaniver 02 September 2011 04:21:54PM 2 points [-]

I, for one, take it as a sign of Harry's growth that he's willing to put his alliances ahead of his utilitarian calculations, and him doing that appears to be cementing his alliances nicely.

Comment author: dbaupp 02 September 2011 04:44:13PM 9 points [-]

I would've thought that he is increasing the influence of his "alliance" term in his utilitarian calculations.

Comment author: wedrifid 02 September 2011 03:35:06AM *  3 points [-]

I don't even know if Harry made the right decision by protecting her and her friends. We'll see if

Harry made the right decision by protecting her and her friends. Given what he knows and even given human (and Hogwarts) behavior it gives the best expected outcome.

Yes, Eliezer may construct negative consequences for Harry and try to teach a Deep Lesson but I basically wouldn't buy it[1]. You can't get much better bullying deterrent than seeing them visibly humiliated by first year girls. Add in some naked wall sticking and nobody would want to affiliate with such a degraded role. (They'll move on to more successful dominance displays.)

[1]ETA: Unless the Deep Lesson was one about decisions still being the correct decision at the time even if hindsight revealed an unpredictable outcome. But there are easier ways to communicate that.

Comment author: hairyfigment 02 September 2011 08:10:11AM 1 point [-]

You can't get much better bullying deterrent than seeing them visibly humiliated by first year girls. Add in some naked wall sticking and nobody would want to affiliate with such a degraded role. (They'll move on to more successful dominance displays.)

You're addressing the wrong question. We know that at least one apparent sociopath (Belka) wanted to hurt/kill Harry and Hermione before Snape's angry intervention. So we have to ask if likely Legilimens Q. Quirrell, who interferes with Snape's damage control in ch. 75, wants Belka or someone else to commit murder.

More broadly, we have to ask if it made sense for Harry to get help from Quirrell or to try and cheer up the unFriendly AI.

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