orthonormal comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 8 - Less Wrong

8 Post author: Unnamed 25 August 2011 02:17AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (653)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: wedrifid 01 September 2011 04:57:58PM *  7 points [-]

RE: Chapter 75.

Harry is usually rather good avoiding making reckless commitments but he seems to have thrown that caution away. I refer here, of course, to the non-interference treaty he proposed with Hermione. When it comes to things like becoming a ghost-whispering Hermione's rivals that is all well and good. That's Hermione's business. But if there is one scenario we can expect the treaty to cover - informally specified as it is - is that which prompted its very creation.

  • Asking the other girls if they wanted protection was more than just an excuse. If Harry was entirely unaware of the existence of Hermione he would have most certainly have protected one of his loyal Chaos soldiers.
  • Without Tracy's involvement there is still no way he would have allowed 4 first year girls be beaten by 44 assorted thugs led by Snape if there was anything he could do about it.
  • Without the remaining 4 first year girls immediate safety threatened he still would have taken the same actions purely for the sake of the massive impact it would have on the culture of violence and bullying.
  • Even if he wasn't an obsessive altruist trying to Change The World he still would have done it so that people don't get it into their heads that interfering do-gooder first years with far too much success to their name than their strength warrants can be crushed with the simple application of force in moderate numbers.

If situations such as this one are encountered in the future then Harry has lost the freedom to do what seems fundamental to Harry. Not just in regards to Hermione specifically but to anyone who has the misfortune of being in her Aura of ImPotence. He will, unless Hermione's ego happens to be sane that day, let barrages of fire and pain fall freely up that which he (supposedly) Protects.

Harry has been wondering with incomprehension how a community could endorse unjust cruelty and violence. He has self righteously condemned those who go along and do nothing. Yet now he should begin to see the temptation. He has just conceded to allow groups of ten year old girls to be beaten, permanently injured and possibly killed lest he step into the political territory claimed by an ally and with the hope that by doing so he will - in the future when they are physically capable of it - get laid! Now Harry is starting to act like a Grown Up.

I don't suggest opening with "woulda dun it anywayz" would be a particularly wise conversation move but do assert that the deal he made here would have been far more appropriate to make when Harry was interfering with Hermione, not with something more general that also included her. In this case it deserved at least a pithy one sentence disclaimer. Which is far less than the multi-point verbal contracts he has spoken up every other time he made a deal.

I would read more into it if I didn't think this was the Author forcing in a deep conversation that he thought through earlier into this situation without thinking the details through clearly. Where by 'more' I probably mean "like the above except not being flippant". It only becomes in ernest if (or when) Eliezer interjects and declares the commitment with its undisclaimed recklessness canon.

Comment author: orthonormal 03 September 2011 06:48:17PM 2 points [-]

Harry is usually rather good avoiding making reckless commitments but he seems to have thrown that caution away. I refer here, of course, to the non-interference treaty he proposed with Hermione.

Really? His commitment to Draco regarding Dumbledore is at least as reckless.

Comment author: wedrifid 03 September 2011 07:01:22PM *  4 points [-]

That is exactly what springs to mind as an example of how Harry usually goes about making commitments. In that case he was sane enough to mention all of 5 disclaimers, and at a time when Draco was more emotionally destabilized than Hermione is here. I suggest he could have managed to casually include just one this time.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 05 September 2011 06:33:42AM 6 points [-]

Wrote the quadruple-disclaimerized version of that conversation, deleted the disclaimers because it didn't flow as writing. Justification: Harry finds it very easy to imagine that Hermione is just as terrified of losing control as he is, even though that's not quite what's going on at the other end.

Comment author: TobyBartels 05 September 2011 08:31:04AM 6 points [-]

Should I vote this comment down because I wish you really had put the disclaimers in there and don't find the justification satisfying? (Answer to my own question: no.)

Comment author: wedrifid 05 September 2011 09:31:38AM 5 points [-]

Should I vote this comment down because I wish you really had put the disclaimers in there and don't find the justification satisfying? (Answer to my own question: no.)

I voted it up because at least he acknowledged he tried. I'm going to pretend I didn't read the justification - it's terrible!

Comment author: TobyBartels 07 September 2011 07:09:36PM 2 points [-]

I voted it up because at least he acknowledged

Yes, this alone (just the part that I quoted) is enough to vote it up, on the principle that one votes up what one would like to see more of. Thanks for reminding me to do that!

Comment author: wedrifid 05 September 2011 08:00:49AM *  2 points [-]

Wrote the quadruple-disclaimerized version of that conversation, deleted the disclaimers because it didn't flow as writing.

Glad to hear that! And I can certainly imagine 4 disclaimers not fitting there at all. (One, on the other hand, mentioned as an afterthought...)