Oscar_Cunningham comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 8 - Less Wrong

8 Post author: Unnamed 25 August 2011 02:17AM

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Comment author: Xachariah 04 September 2011 09:46:57AM 13 points [-]

That seems like an effective method of imprisonment. Force the wizard to expend their power permanently in rituals (or just one powerful ritual). Such a prison would be significantly safer than Azkaban, since any wizards which escape would be effectively useless. They would be permanently helpless; some might consider it an even worse fate than dementors.

On further thought, perhaps that is why the public accepts dementors. Imagine what the prison system could have been before dementors were harnessed for prison work. The state would have an incentive to label people as criminals, so that it could burn their magic. The entire situation would degrade into an ever worsening police state. The discovery of dementors for prison use would be a humanitarian breakthrough akin to the abolishing of Capital Punishment.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 05 September 2011 08:54:31AM 4 points [-]

Such a prison would be significantly safer than Azkaban, since any wizards which escape would be effectively useless. They would be permanently helpless.

Apart from, y'know, still being humans, right?

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 06:18:42PM 1 point [-]

If any of those previous Dark Wizards were dangerous even as ordinary humans, they wouldn't've lost in the first place.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 05 September 2011 06:25:23PM 0 points [-]

Unless they had some kind of really cunning plan.

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 06:27:33PM 0 points [-]

If they had such a plan which really truly required them to be non-magical* and somehow was superior to all magical plans, they could just burn their power themselves...

* This makes me very wary as it sounds perilously close to conjunction fallacy. The set of 'non-magical \/ magical plans' ought to be larger than either subset...

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 05 September 2011 06:42:56PM 0 points [-]

Example: Have your enemy burn your magic. Your enemy thinks you are safe and lets their guard down. Your minion sacrifices themselves and you absorb their magic. You win.

Admittedly this plan will involve more than three things going right in a row.

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 07:03:23PM 0 points [-]

Your minion sacrifices themselves and you absorb their magic.

I was going to say that this step seems like an assumption, except Eliezer just made Dumbledore say that was the secret to Grindelwald's success, so...

Comment author: Sheaman3773 05 September 2011 08:31:28PM 4 points [-]

But while his Muggle allies yet made blood sacrifice to sustain him, Grindelwald would not have fallen.

He never said that his Muggle allies were killing themselves; the blood sacrifice mentioned could easily be from those who were killed in the Nazi extermination camps.

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 08:35:09PM 1 point [-]

He never said that his Muggle allies were killing themselves; the blood sacrifice mentioned could easily be from those who were killed in the Nazi extermination camps.

Is there a difference, from the magical point of view, between Muggle allies slaughtering each other to fuel Grindelwald, and slaughtering non-allied Muggles to fuel Grindelwald?

Comment author: TobyBartels 07 September 2011 06:57:07PM 2 points [-]

Arguably, his Muggle allies (assuming, as usual, that these are the Nazis) were indeed sacrificing themselves: they started a war which they lost, leading to their deaths (in many cases) by war, hanging, or suicide (the last including the Muggle Fuehrer himself).

However, I interpreted this as Sheaman did; sacrificing others may be less powerful, but it was a lot of others.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 05 September 2011 08:56:33PM 1 point [-]

In a number of magic systems, the willingness of a sacrifice can have a huge impact on its effectiveness, ranging anywhere from a willing sacrifice granting significantly more power than the unwilling to requiring the sacrifice to be willing for it to work at all.

I'm uncertain where Potterverse stands on this, let alone MOR!Potterverse.

Assuming Voldemort's ritual in GoF was more than empty words, willingness is important, or at least notable, given:

Bone of the father, unknowingly given, you will renew your son. Flesh of the servant, willingly given, you will revive your master. Blood of the enemy, forcibly taken, you will resurrect your foe.

Italics added to emphasize parts concerning consent.