TobyBartels comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 8 - Less Wrong

8 Post author: Unnamed 25 August 2011 02:17AM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 September 2011 02:52:20AM 0 points [-]

I think we may have something of a clash of backgrounds here. The reason I'm inclined to take the real continuum seriously is that there are numerous physical quantities that seem to be made of real or complex numbers. The reason I take mathematical induction seriously is that it looks like you might always be able to add one minute to the total number of minutes passed. The reason I take second-order logic seriously is that it lets me pin down a single mathematical referent that I'm comparing to the realities of space and time.

The reason I'm not inclined to take the least uncountable ordinal seriously is because, occupying as it does a position above the Church-Kleene ordinal and all possible hypercomputational generalizations thereof, it feels like talking about the collection of all collections - the supremum of an indefinitely extensible quality that shouldn't have a supremum any more than I could talk about a mathematical object that is the supremum of all the models a first-order set theory can have. If set theory makes the apparent continuum from physics collide with this first uncountable ordinal, my inclination is to distrust set theory.

Comment author: TobyBartels 11 September 2011 10:01:31PM *  3 points [-]

The reason I take second-order logic seriously is that it lets me pin down a single mathematical referent that I'm comparing to the realities of space and time.

How can you say this after having read this thread?

If you believe in second-order model theory, then you believe in set theory. (However, by limiting it to second order over the natural numbers, without going on to third order, you are not obligated to believe in uncountable ordinals.)

ETA: It is very imprecise to compare second-order model theory and set theory like this. Already model theory is set theory, of course, albeit (potentially, not in practice) set theory without power sets. I should just leave the model theory out of it and say:

If you believe in second-order logic, then you believe in set theory. (However, ….)