Will_Newsome comments on Rationality tip: Predict your comment karma - Less Wrong

10 Post author: Will_Newsome 14 September 2011 05:07AM

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Comment author: Will_Newsome 14 September 2011 01:47:09PM 3 points [-]

A question of moral philosophy?

Because Less Wrong's extrapolated volition would have upvoted it, and if you didn't post it anyway then Less Wrong's extrapolated volition would be justified in getting mad at you for having not even tried to help Less Wrong's extrapolated volition to obtain faster than it otherwise would have (by instantiating its decision policy earlier in time, because there's no other way for the future to change the present than by the future-minded present thinkers' conscious invocation).

Because definitions of reasonableness get made up after the fact as if teleologically, and it doesn't matter whether or not your straightforward causal reasons seemed good enough at the time, it matters whether or not you correctly predict the retrospective judgment of future powers who make things up after the fact to apportion blame or credit according to higher level principles than the ones that appeared salient to you, or the ones that seemed salient as the ones that would seem salient to them.

This is how morality has always worked, this is how we ourselves look back on history, judging the decisions of the past by our own ideals, whether those decisions were made by past civilizations or past lovers. This pattern of unreasonable judging itself seems like an institution that shouldn't be propped up, so there's no safety in self-consistency either. And if you get complacent about the foundational tensions here, or oppositely if you act rashly as a result of feeling those tensions, then that itself is asking to be seen as unjustified in retrospect.

And if no future agent manages to become omniscient and omnibenevolent then any information you managed to propagate about what morality truly is just gets swallowed by the noise. And if an omniscient and omnibenevolent agent does pop up then it might be the best you can hope for is to be a martyr or a scapegoat, and all that you value becomes a sacrifice made by the ideal future so that it can enter into time. Assuming for some crazy reason that you were able to correctly intuit in the first place what concessions the future will demand that you had already made.

You constantly make the same choices as Sophie and Abraham, it's just less obvious to you that you're making them, less salient because it's not your child's life on the line. Not obviously at this very moment anyway.

Go meta, be clever.

Comment author: Desrtopa 14 September 2011 03:26:06PM 8 points [-]

In other words, when everyone thinks you're wrong, do it anyway because you're sure it's right and they'll come around eventually?

This has been the foundation for pretty much all positive social disobedience, but it's wrong a lot more often.

People who disagree with mainstream opinions here, but do so for well articulated and coherent reasons are usually upvoted. If you think something will be downvoted, I think you should take very seriously the idea that it's either very wrong or you're not articulating it well enough for it to be useful.

Comment author: cousin_it 20 September 2011 09:07:20PM *  2 points [-]

And if no future agent manages to become omniscient and omnibenevolent then any information you managed to propagate about what morality truly is just gets swallowed by the noise. And if an omniscient and omnibenevolent agent does pop up then it might be the best you can hope for is to be a martyr or a scapegoat, and all that you value becomes a sacrifice made by the ideal future so that it can enter into time.

I still don't see the point of writing obfuscated comments, though. If serving a possible future god is your cup of tea, it seems to me that making your LW comments more readable should help you in reaching that goal. If that demands sacrifice, Will, could you please make that sacrifice?

Comment author: pedanterrific 20 September 2011 09:15:18PM *  2 points [-]

Okay, I haven't even been here that long and I'm already getting tired of this conversation.