CriticalSteel comments on Intro-level training materials for rationality / critical thinking - Less Wrong

9 Post author: lukeprog 20 September 2011 03:03AM

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Comment author: CriticalSteel 20 November 2011 07:17:10PM *  -2 points [-]

The "here be dragons" video is nonsence. Sorry.

He commits fallacies of his own in his explanation of fallacies.

He straw mans the entire vaccine debate and the fact that 9/11 was an inside job. Furthermore he casts doubt on "conspiracy theories" with a generalisation (that they are all theories) like a true evangelist.

There are many conspiracies that are historical fact; the Reichstag fire, the gulf of Tonkin, even Caesar’s murder.

I know mentioning the law is an appeal to authority, but, even the law knows of conspiracies. They have conspiracies to pervert the course of justice, conspiracies to commit crimes. And these arnt just coincidental terms.

"Here be dragons" fails, badly. Mainly, by assuming that Critical Thinking is on some sort of political side with science, or at least, the whole of science. Instead of being, in entirety, about analysing evidence.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 24 November 2011 01:43:24AM 0 points [-]

Anyone who downvoted CriticalSteel just for his unpopular positions should be ashamed of themselves.

That having been said, he deserves enough downvotes, for the obnoxious and arrogant manner he uses later in the thread. Just not for this initial post.

Comment author: wedrifid 24 November 2011 02:39:34PM 2 points [-]

Anyone who downvoted CriticalSteel just for his unpopular positions should be ashamed of themselves.

Not at all. It is entirely legitimate to down-vote completely crackpot ideas purely because hearing the same old completely crackpot ideas can be annoying. It would also be legitimate to downvote the grandparent based off the arguments therein. They aren't nearly as ridiculous as what they descend into later in the thread but the "like a true evangelist" line as well as move to the entirely different kind of 'conspiracy' used in law (rather far removed from popular 'conspiracy theories') are both potentially downvote-worthy.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 24 November 2011 07:57:42PM 4 points [-]

It is entirely legitimate to down-vote completely crackpot ideas

Would it be legitimate for me to downvote people the next time they mention ideas that I consider completely crackpot (like quantum immortality), or ideas that most of the world considers completely crackpot (like many-worlds)?

The arguments contained in the ancestor post criticize "Here Be Dragons" for actual failings contained therein. That the specific ideas mentioned (9/11 conspiracy, autism-vaccine connection) are considered crackpot doesn't mean one is allowed to strawman them. It's all the more reason that one doesn''t even have to strawman them.

Comment author: wedrifid 25 November 2011 02:56:17AM 0 points [-]

Would it be legitimate for me to downvote people the next time they mention ideas that I consider completely crackpot (like quantum immortality), or ideas that most of the world considers completely crackpot (like many-worlds)?

I tend to presume less control of other people's voting behavior than you seem to.

Comment author: lessdazed 24 November 2011 06:10:31AM 1 point [-]

I tried to accommodate the 9/11 trutherism by pointing to videos discussing the problems inherent in conspiracy theories that did not use that as an example. I didn't downvote the original post and ignored early signs of confusion about how words work:

he casts doubt on "conspiracy theories" with a generalisation (that they are all theories)

This was followed in subsequent posts by map-territory confusion:

I'd have to dissagree, based on evidence...The evidence is: In his description of conspiricies in part 1, he never even once mentiones the word evidence.

That the video did not use the word "evidence" does not strongly imply that evidence was not provided. Spelling and grammar are tools to limit confusion, and writing "the word 'evidence'" as "the word evidence" isn't helping him.

The response:

your “map and territory” is looking mighty fallacious. I really REALLY doubt that you can vindicate it.

At this point, I was done but he went on:

as of yet, your “map and territory” is looking mighty fallacious. I really REALLY doubt that you can vindicate it.

To his credit, he apparently actually went and read about it, as he later said:

You didnt prove anything, and my later researching of "map and territory" or "belief and reality" (which i take to be a theory which is a proposed addition to the list of flaws and fallacies.) didnt lend any greater credibility to your point.

Its use of the term belief immediately characterises my argument as a belief, instead of evidenced based. Beliefs do not require evidence, they require faith. Therefore your fallacy does not apply here. Furthermore, it is very fallacious and risky to use this fallacy "belief and reality"

He doesn't understand how words work, doesn't understand beliefs and reality, and doesn't understand how to change his mind. I disagree with the implication that things other than tone aren't sufficient reasons to downvote his other posts.

It is not a coincidence that one person's arguments, sentences, and words are all muddled.

I endorse what wedrifid said as a reply to the new person's posts:

For the sake of brevity assume that the remainder of my reply consists of quotes of most of the sentences of the parent, each followed by "straw man", "non sequitur" or "no, that's just plain wrong".

Comment author: [deleted] 24 November 2011 02:10:42AM *  1 point [-]

I agree. I downvoted some of his posts, not because he might not have a point, but because he was using a style that I do not appreciate on lesswrong: unneeded profanity, half-formed thoughts, aggressive tone, and (I'll admit) bad spelling.

However, I would not (and did not) down vote this original post, which seems like a reasonable argument (from the POV of someone who has not watched whatever video they are discussing)

Comment author: lessdazed 21 November 2011 01:34:23AM *  1 point [-]

There are many conspiracies that are historical fact

...the Al-Qaeda conspiracies to blow up the World Trade Center...

HBD is tedious, and The Critical Thinker just added better conspiracy theory videos.

Part 1, Part 2