Particles break light-speed limit?

Kevin

13 Particles break light-speed limit?

by Kevin

23rd Sep 2011

1 min read

175

13

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110922/full/news.2011.554.html

http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897v1

http://usersguidetotheuniverse.com/?p=2169

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3027056

Ereditato says that he is confident enough in the new result to make it public. The researchers claim to have measured the 730-kilometre trip between CERN and its detector to within 20 centimetres. They can measure the time of the trip to within 10 nanoseconds, and they have seen the effect in more than 16,000 events measured over the past two years. Given all this, they believe the result has a significance of six-sigma — the physicists' way of saying it is certainly correct. The group will present their results tomorrow at CERN, and a preprint of their results will be posted on the physics website ArXiv.org.

At least one other experiment has seen a similar effect before, albeit with a much lower confidence level. In 2007, the Main Injector Neutrino Oscillation Search (MINOS) experiment in Minnesota saw neutrinos from the particle-physics facility Fermilab in Illinois arriving slightly ahead of schedule. At the time, the MINOS team downplayed the result, in part because there was too much uncertainty in the detector's exact position to be sure of its significance, says Jenny Thomas, a spokeswoman for the experiment. Thomas says that MINOS was already planning more accurate follow-up experiments before the latest OPERA result. "I'm hoping that we could get that going and make a measurement in a year or two," she says.

Perhaps the end of the era of the light cone and beginning of the era of the neutrino cone? I'd be curious to see your probability estimates for whether this theory pans out. Or other crackpot hypotheses to explain the results.

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13 Particles break light-speed limit?

by Kevin

23rd Sep 2011

1 min read

175

13

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110922/full/news.2011.554.html

http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897v1

http://usersguidetotheuniverse.com/?p=2169

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3027056

Ereditato says that he is confident enough in the new result to make it public. The researchers claim to have measured the 730-kilometre trip between CERN and its detector to within 20 centimetres. They can measure the time of the trip to within 10 nanoseconds, and they have seen the effect in more than 16,000 events measured over the past two years. Given all this, they believe the result has a significance of six-sigma — the physicists' way of saying it is certainly correct. The group will present their results tomorrow at CERN, and a preprint of their results will be posted on the physics website ArXiv.org.

At least one other experiment has seen a similar effect before, albeit with a much lower confidence level. In 2007, the Main Injector Neutrino Oscillation Search (MINOS) experiment in Minnesota saw neutrinos from the particle-physics facility Fermilab in Illinois arriving slightly ahead of schedule. At the time, the MINOS team downplayed the result, in part because there was too much uncertainty in the detector's exact position to be sure of its significance, says Jenny Thomas, a spokeswoman for the experiment. Thomas says that MINOS was already planning more accurate follow-up experiments before the latest OPERA result. "I'm hoping that we could get that going and make a measurement in a year or two," she says.

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12OPERA Confirms: Neutrinos Travel Faster Than Light

3Particles may not have broken light speed limit

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Kevin15y40

The consequence of the FTL neutrinos CERN thinks they found at six sigma significance is not the breakdown of causality. You can have faster than light neutrinos without backwards propagation of information. This is not the end of normality, but a new normality, one where Lorentz invariance is broken. This would mean that there is a universal reference class that trumps but doesn't destroy relativity. If anything, a universal reference class seems like a stronger causal structure than relativity.

This whole thing would be so normal, that there's a pre-existing effective field theory called the Standard Model Extension. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-Model_Extension

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_transformation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_covariance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz-violating_neutrino_oscillations

is suggested WIkipedia skimming, http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/10/25/lorentz-invariance-and-you/ is what gave me the intuition of the universal inertial frame.

I'm at around 10% odds on this whole thing seeming like weak consensus in 3 years and something like >80% odds (on a very very long bet) that locally possible FTL information travel is possible outside of the local structure of causality.

Eliezer Yudkowsky15y250

It's not about transmitting information into the past - it's about the locality of causality. Consider Judea Pearl's classic graph with SEASONS at the top, SEASONS affecting RAIN and SPRINKLER, and RAIN and SPRINKLER both affecting the WETness of the sidewalk, which can then become SLIPPERY. The fundamental idea and definition of "causality" is that once you know RAIN and SPRINKLER, you can evaluate the probability that the sidewalk is WET without knowing anything about SEASONS - the universe of causal ancestors of WET is entirely screened off ... (read more)

2JoshuaZ15y

Hmm, would you be willing to bet on either the 10% claim or the 80% claim? Everything you have said until the last paragraph seems reasonable to me, and then those extremely high probabilities jump out.

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